Covenants are terrible

[Toybox]

Covenants are a pretty great idea. The problem with them is how Blizzard tried to attach player power to them and how they eventually ended up in game.

All of the player power should have been an extra system that's not attached to your Covenant. Only cosmetics should be part of your Covenant choice.

100% this. Turning Sinfall into a Warrior order hall was never the way.

[Subrias]

Hi,
Covenants are really bad. We basically got another talent tree,
which is not the worst in itself, but what's bad about it is, that it gives you illusion of choice, and there is no choice.
This Spec goes that Covenant, that Spec goes other, and that's how it is,
now to top it off, you are punished for switching them, so each time you want to switch said 'talents' you must invest your time to be able to do so,
and you can only do it once a week or so, but that's not the end of it - you get robbed of your Anima and Renown.
Some said that 50g in Classic was a steep price.

I know many can bring the very old 'if you are not 1% it doesn't matter',
which I could agree with sometimes, but the difference is so huge, it matters for any player.

I'm writing this rant, because I always try something off-meta and I got short end of the stick.
While I think I'm done for now, I'll stick with what I have until 9.0.5 changes come in.


We also have the situation that different Specs of the same Class go different ones, but since we have legendaries already I guess, it's how one should expect it.

You admit you try off meta things, and you are upset they aren't as good? They are meta because people do the math and test them all extensively, of course off meta isn't going to be as good.

[cparle87]

Very high content? Fractions of a %? 2k has never been "very high" and the differences in utility, survivability, and throughout are vast in PvP. I assure you, for example, you can't play serious PvP as a priest if u are not venthyr. It's just that good.

What percent of people do any organized pvp? What percent of that percent do arena? What percent of that percent of that percent got above 2k? Copying 2k+ people is like copying world top 500.

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If you honestly think that 1 out of 12 classes and 10% thereof make up "hundreds of thousands to millions" of datapoints, then I have some serious questions in regards to your education.

Considering in MoP WoW had over 100 million ACCOUNTS made and that was a third of WoW's lifetime ago I'd say there's easily a million druids. Or did you mistake "hundreds of thousands TO millions" with "hundreds of millions"?

[Cosmic Janitor]

Considering in MoP WoW had over 100 million ACCOUNTS made and that was a third of WoW's lifetime ago I'd say there's easily a million druids. Or did you mistake "hundreds of thousands TO millions" with "hundreds of millions"?

Sorry, did you just strap the goalpost to an ICBM and launched it to the other side of the planet? :P
I guess I have to apologize, the people that never played SL and only made an account 15 years ago and trialed for 1 month are obviously relevant to the discussion of SL features and their adaptation.

[cparle87]

Wow, that has got to be the more extreme attempt at complely ignoring an argument I've ever seen. There were over 100 million accounts nearly a decade ago, certain many more now, and you're trying to argue that there's somehow no evidence that there's not at least a million druids now?

[vashe9]

welcome to bfa 2.0
where everything is an illusion, blizzard told you you can choice what you want but no
x spec must go with x convenant, they must be the same or you will do shitty dps
talent too are the same, you have to choose the good one proposed by all the best dps or you will do shitty dps
legendary ? so many choices ! oh wow.. ! oh yeah you play this spec ? you have to choose this bis legendary to have max dps or you will not be choosent for mm+ / raid
anima ? oh wait is it azerith 2.0 ? damn ! yes !

all is illusion, there is no really real choices to pick, you just google your class and spec and boum, copy paste what the guide told you to be a good boy dps/tank/heal

the fun that vanilla was when the game was really a good rpg game , a good adventure is so far away, blizzard want to control you and make sure you do your daily thing everyday

People were saying that for months during beta... and people still defended the "muh meaningful choice muuuh"

But I disagree with vanilla being better. Play classic and see the difference yourself... 2021 games don't need game design from 2004

You can totally ignore anima now, I'm 34 renown and my max souldbind was at rank 32 and I totally dont care about the "build your base" thing. It's not as bad as azerite

[Kehego]

People were saying that for months during beta... and people still defended the "muh meaningful choice muuuh"

there's never going to be a meaningful choice because everything has been mathed to death and a "best" will always be predetermined months before systems go live

[Lord Pebbleton]

The only terrible things about convenants is that smug asshat Renathal telling me "sOrRy u R noT venTHYr Lol" when I try to go to Sinfall. I solved your daddy issues, you blood sucking sucker. Drop the attitude.

[Oneirophobia]

not rep at all
its the bfa heart of azeroth quest/legion class hall quest if anything.

Reputation and renown are basically synonyms, what I'm saying is they could remove the rep system and replace it with a modified renown system and call it a day. Do you prefer the old rep system or would you rather just have renown for each faction? Assuming older ones weren't time gated or anything.

[Cosmic Janitor]

The only terrible things about convenants is that smug asshat Renathal telling me "sOrRy u R noT venTHYr Lol" when I try to go to Sinfall. I solved your daddy issues, you blood sucking sucker. Drop the attitude.

From a narrative point all of these alignment issues are complete and utter nonsense. It's the same when you hearthstone into the Kyrian sanctum after switching (didn't place it in the new sanctum) and get told off despite having resolved all their issues, upgraded their covenant sanctum considerably, unlocked 3/4 of the side stuff and having reached exalted with them ages ago. They could at least be nice about it instead they treat you like some rando stranger (which never makes sense for any max level character).

The whole covenant thing is just a complete narrative joke, because the interactions, which are lousily excused by one and half lines in a 1 minute cinematic, still make no sense. They should be fucking kissing your feet that you want to donate some anima to them, instead they act like spoiled children because you didn't play with them first and when you do you have to promise them to never play with the others unless they allow it, else they will pout with puffed up cheeks until they are red in the face. If the covenants would at least be at odds with one another, but all their differences are resolved one quarter through their campaigns if there are even any to begin with (Kyrian and Night Fae have no beef whatsoever at any time for example).

[Kehego]

Reputation and renown are basically synonyms, what I'm saying is they could remove the rep system and replace it with a modified renown system and call it a day. Do you prefer the old rep system or would you rather just have renown for each faction? Assuming older ones weren't time gated or anything.

Nah, reps are fine as is. you have normal, grindable, non power related rep, and power related renown. I'd wager this is better since the one that matters is time gated (with a significant catchup)

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From a narrative point all of these alignment issues are complete and utter nonsense. It's the same when you hearthstone into the Kyrian sanctum after switching (didn't place it in the new sanctum) and get told off despite having resolved all their issues, upgraded their covenant sanctum considerably, unlocked 3/4 of the side stuff and having reached exalted with them ages ago. They could at least be nice about it instead they treat you like some rando stranger (which never makes sense for any max level character).

The whole covenant thing is just a complete narrative joke, because the interactions, which are lousily excused by one and half lines in a 1 minute cinematic, still make no sense. They should be fucking kissing your feet that you want to donate some anima to them, instead they act like spoiled children because you didn't play with them first and when you do you have to promise them to never play with the others unless they allow it, else they will pout with puffed up cheeks until they are red in the face. If the covenants would at least be at odds with one another, but all their differences are resolved one quarter through their campaigns if there are even any to begin with (Kyrian and Night Fae have no beef whatsoever at any time for example).

the soulbinding is like a cell contract.

Like sure you can drop your current provider, but you gotta wait till next billing period to go back

[Soon-TM]

From a narrative point all of these alignment issues are complete and utter nonsense. It's the same when you hearthstone into the Kyrian sanctum after switching (didn't place it in the new sanctum) and get told off despite having resolved all their issues, upgraded their covenant sanctum considerably, unlocked 3/4 of the side stuff and having reached exalted with them ages ago. They could at least be nice about it instead they treat you like some rando stranger (which never makes sense for any max level character).

The whole covenant thing is just a complete narrative joke, because the interactions, which are lousily excused by one and half lines in a 1 minute cinematic, still make no sense. They should be fucking kissing your feet that you want to donate some anima to them, instead they act like spoiled children because you didn't play with them first and when you do you have to promise them to never play with the others unless they allow it, else they will pout with puffed up cheeks until they are red in the face. If the covenants would at least be at odds with one another, but all their differences are resolved one quarter through their campaigns if there are even any to begin with (Kyrian and Night Fae have no beef whatsoever at any time for example).

Blizzard already tried to do something akin to covenants in BC, with the Aldor/Scryer system, but they were smart (or lucky) enough as to not push it too much. But now, they've cranked it up to 11, ostensibly because of MUH RPG - the problem is that even from a RP/story PoV it doesn't make a iota of sense.

[LazuOG]

What percent of people do any organized pvp? What percent of that percent do arena? What percent of that percent of that percent got above 2k? Copying 2k+ people is like copying world top 500.

Why would you balance system design for anything but the levels of play where it actually matters? As far as I'm concerned personal play adjustments have a much bigger impact than class balance below 2k. It's the high end gameplay that has to be balanced. When someone plays a comp/class to near perfection, that's where staggering differences in power and synergy become highlighted. It's also the level of play where adjustments made with the lower brackets in mind snowball, whereas balancing for the top echelons usually only has a mild Impact on lower brackets. You wouldn't adjust ubiquitous FIFA rules just to accommodate regional leagues and in turn fuck shit up for the leagues where it matters.

This applies to covenant design because the restrictions placed on the system deny you the possibility to make crucial adjustments to your play, the impact of which is amplified at higher levels of play.

I sincerely hope that with "uniting the 4 covenants" in 9.1 we get the opportunity to swap freely and easily so I can play at the limits of my ability again without being hamstrung by the system. Not saying I'm an absolute crack and the only thing holding me back is my cov choice. I'm saying when I try to do my absolute best and strife to get better, that conduit I can't change or the cov ability I don't have in a certain situation becomes an annoying itch in the back of my head that becomes more pestering with each passing week.

Also, when you look at the population of players that play rated arena to push and not just to cap for easy gear, 2k is about the 40% mark of player skill. You wouldn't look at the entire population when trying to determine which percentage of NBA players are right handed. Your basis should be the total number of NBA players and you make your calculations based on that.

[cparle87]

Why would you balance system design for anything but the levels of play where it actually matters?

Elitist, ho!

How about instead of pandering to the tryhards they make it balanced for, I dunno, their playerbase?

[LazuOG]

Elitist, ho!

How about instead of pandering to the tryhards they make it balanced for, I dunno, their playerbase?

It's reasonable game design, which is objective. Elitism however is greatly defined by who claims whom or what to be elitist. For an LFR player a Heroic raider might be elitist in what they demand, for the hc raider it's the mythic raider, and for the mythic raider it's RTWF day raiders.

Games should never be balanced around the average player because it's simply impossible to balance something without near optimal play in mind. It will always turn into a shitshow on the higher levels of play, whereas the mid and low tier do not suffer from tightly cut high end balancing.
Especially in rated PvP, which is competitive by nature, players will always strife to reach the higher echelons, making it even more inportant to balance around that. If you don't get that then nobody can help you.

[Akibaboy]

I know many can bring the very old 'if you are not 1% it doesn't matter',
which I could agree with sometimes, but the difference is so huge, it matters for any player.

Hi.
I'm a warlock and my guild leader is a warlock. He has better gear. I play Shadowlands' worst Warlock spec (at least for the majority of progression before hotfixes), and chose the worst Covenant whose ability the guides all say I should not even cast its so bad. I am competitive with most everyone in our raid and regularly beat my guild leader lock who is playing Affliction with the preferred Covenant. I am in a Curve guild who usually gets 3-5 Mythic fights done each patch.

Why does this matter? Because the disparity really is only important for the top end, cutting edge 1%. For 99% of players, your class has the tools and capabilities to contribute to a group what they need to succeed. If your numbers are abysmal, you probably need gear or practice. If you're dying to bosses because of mechanics and not enrages, you need practice. The overwhelming majority of WoW players can play what they like where they like. If they can't, I'm sure that fat check from Red Bull or the stream donation chime will help ease the pain for them.

[Popokolara]

Hi.
I'm a warlock and my guild leader is a warlock. He has better gear. I play Shadowlands' worst Warlock spec (at least for the majority of progression before hotfixes), and chose the worst Covenant whose ability the guides all say I should not even cast its so bad. I am competitive with most everyone in our raid and regularly beat my guild leader lock who is playing Affliction with the preferred Covenant. I am in a Curve guild who usually gets 3-5 Mythic fights done each patch.

Why does this matter? Because the disparity really is only important for the top end, cutting edge 1%. For 99% of players, your class has the tools and capabilities to contribute to a group what they need to succeed. If your numbers are abysmal, you probably need gear or practice. If you're dying to bosses because of mechanics and not enrages, you need practice. The overwhelming majority of WoW players can play what they like where they like. If they can't, I'm sure that fat check from Red Bull or the stream donation chime will help ease the pain for them.

Hi i m a disc priest.
Being venthyr increases my spirit shell by 33%.
Being night fae if i use my covenant ability i burn my mana and reduce my ability to heal drastically.
If i go necrolord my spirit shell is a joke.


Do you understand?

Beating bad players does not mean it doesnt matter. Some covenants are frighteningly impactful even on a basic gameplay skill level. Killing the free loot bosses which does include half mythic or more the later you go into the tier is in no way an achievement.

My old tbc guild currently consists of people who have difficulty using keybinds and play random talents. Sometimes use six healers to survive bosses on heroic.
They still killed 8 bosses in nyalotha.


Each player has his own skill cap and abilitirs and willingless to try. Also on some fights proper gameplay and control of the fight means holding dps back. As in a lot. As in you wipe because someone parsed 94 on just that one fight while you consistent 95s went for 66 because they were asked to.
The impact of meta sometimes is immense and being just good enough to make it is in no way a metric to decide if it matters or not.

[Ansi]

I love everything about the covenants, and I'm so happy Blizzard keeps experimenting with these kind of concepts. The harder the choice is, the better the design is.

I'd love to elaborate but I'm sure most users on MMO-Champion would perceive it as trolling.

[Akibaboy]

Killing the free loot bosses which does include half mythic or more the later you go into the tier is in no way an achievement. My old tbc guild currently consists of people who have difficulty using keybinds and play random talents. Sometimes use six healers to survive bosses on heroic.
They still killed 8 bosses in nyalotha.

I'm glad we agree that digesting a majority of the game's content doesn't require you to min-max every aspect of your class. As you and I have both asserted, we can tackle the game's content with even the weakest tools afforded to us if we have a base level of skill.

I never once claimed that doing the content I do made me "good", actually much to the contrary - that with me purposely picking terrible options, or in the case of my ally that picked the best options and is not good with them we still are able to engage in the game's content quite a bit with a single casual raid night a week. Honestly the reason we stop progressing on Mythic isn't because we can't, but by then interest in killing the same guy a 20th time generally peters out and our roster of people online goes from 25 to 15ish.

I genuinely believe that when it comes to truly skilled players (not me) and the length of a patch cycle, that they could pick the absolute worst specs and Covenants and the mechanical knowledge of fights would still find them slam dunking the game's hardest content. For the rest, there's a balance of be smart, get some gear, and practice your fights... but do they need to change Covenants/Conduits/specs every other week to make that happen? No.

[ActuaryBro]

Priest is one of the very few classes that can actually choose almost any covenant without heavily handicapping themselves whatsoever.

Unless you want to PvP. Then you only have one option.