[TV] WandaVision

[Aeluron Lightsong]

All the studios do that.

Batman and Green Lantern weren't Affleck and Reynolds first rides on the Super-Hero train.

I prefer Henry Cavvil stay superman but thats off topic.

I agree she doesn't necessarily have to be villain.

Well she did help Wanda come to terms with a lot of trauma she had to deal with(Granted its aggressively but still)

[Nerraw]

Vison, even without the stone, is an Ultron-level threat in a nearly invulnerable body.

Speaking of, I really want it to have James Spader's voice.

[Ayirasi]

Because she killed a puppy.

Run roh, Raggy.

[PACOX]

I'm not concerned that she is a witch. I'm concerned that she rips the life-force out of other people. I'm concerned that she's using Wanda's children, real or not, to extort her compliance. That's not typically heroic. Like I said...she may not be the big bad...but she's not there out of the goodness of her heart.

As far as other Heroes are concerned...any distrust they had for Wanda was gone before Infinity War. The only issue they had with her was from her sneaking off to boink Vision...and that was because they didn't entirely trust him to keep her away from Stark.



Sociopaths understand human emotions. They just don't experience them very strongly. And yeah, he could very easily be one...or it could be something more. Not enough evidence yet.

See the way I saw it, the witches were draining Agnes and she figured out how to reverse it. They were trying to kill her and she defended herself. Which leads to the 'kids'. She is not going to treat the kids like actual children if she views them as unnatural or demonic. They are things that appear to be children.

Also a sociopath can understand standard human emotions such as empathy but that's really not always the case and something that comes with a lot of therapy or complex introspection. Either way he railroads right through Monica and Wanda dealing with grief to skip ahead to his own agenda. His is not concerned with the actual people of Westview while everyone else is.

[rhorle]

See the way I saw it, the witches were draining Agnes and she figured out how to reverse it. They were trying to kill her and she defended herself.

So is Thanos not evil? He just defended himself from the Avengers after all. The snap was just him trying to treat the universe as something unnatural and wrong and he was the savior trying to fix it. Yeah the problem here is you are refusing to acknowledge she is being portrayed as evil on the show while using all the hallmark defenses to spin an evil persons actions.

It doesn't matter if the children really are demonic. She is still using the emotional attachment to Wanda as a reason to manipulate her. It is crazy how much you are ignoring in regards to Agnes but are willing to sell Hayward as evil from a few simple words spoken.

[PACOX]

All the studios do that.

Batman and Green Lantern weren't Affleck and Reynolds first rides on the Super-Hero train.

For sure.

Disney consumes everything in the industry like Galactus though. It was a joke either way (unless we get Michael Cera Jesse Einsberg as Dr Doom.... )

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

See the way I saw it, the witches were draining Agnes and she figured out how to reverse it. They were trying to kill her and she defended herself. Which leads to the 'kids'. She is not going to treat the kids like actual children if she views them as unnatural or demonic. They are things that appear to be children.

It's not a question of how she treats the kids themselves. It's how she's using them against their mother. To Wanda, they are real...and Agatha's threatening to violently murder them in front of her. That's bad guy behaviour.

Also a sociopath can understand standard human emotions such as empathy but that's really not always the case and something that comes with a lot of therapy or complex introspection.

No, they understand emotion. They just lack empathy. But they are very often quite exceptional at manipulating the emotions of other people.

[PACOX]

So is Thanos not evil? He just defended himself from the Avengers after all. The snap was just him trying to treat the universe as something unnatural and wrong and he was the savior trying to fix it. Yeah the problem here is you are refusing to acknowledge she is being portrayed as evil on the show while using all the hallmark defenses to spin an evil persons actions.

It doesn't matter if the children really are demonic. She is still using the emotional attachment to Wanda as a reason to manipulate her. It is crazy how much you are ignoring in regards to Agnes but are willing to sell Hayward as evil from a few simple words spoken.

Not even comparable. Thanos was a galactic crusader who slaughtered billions in his wake. We've seen Agnes kill some witches who may or may not have killed her captors.

Flip your perspective for just a moment. Your are a magic wielder. You know that there are humans/beings/entities that use are benign and those that are malignant. Either way most acts of magic are small localized acts. Maybe making things levitate or casting illusions.

You stumble across an entity can alter no one but multiple minds at once without effort and warp reality. Mind alterations are viewed as problematic because it robs people of their agency, doing it on a large for once own interests is viewed as evil. Now this entity is messing with life in very unnatural ways even when it comes to magic. Those kids weren't naturally conceived, certainly not biologically. Nothing about them makes sense, again even in terms of magic. Seemingly evil entity holding people hostage creating demon spawn. Why treat the kids as if they are actual kids and not juju conjured up by something by something with nothing but selfish/evil intentions?

Back to Agnes. Wanda is probably neither good or bad in her eyes at this point. Wanda is naive and dealing with magic she does not understand. Wanda's ability to conjure those kids is significant but we don't know know what those kids actually are. Agnes could know or she could be as clueless as the viewer. Either way the kids aren't the same as normal human kids so you really can't judge how Agnes is treating them. Wanda could be unknowingly channeling/aiding something bad or harming others in relation to 'kids'. They smell like demonspawn to me. Separating Wanda from the kids until everything is figured out is legitimate.

[rhorle]

Not really comparable since Thanos attacked first. Unless you’re saying Agatha attacked the Salem coven causing her trial...

Sure it is comparable. Do we know that Thanos attacked first from the start? Nope. We just see him, at least in the MCU, after he already decided his course of action. Just like we don't know what Agatha did to be sentenced to death in the first place. We know the crime she was accused of but not the specifics or if it was her first offense.

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Not even comparable. Thanos was a galactic crusader who slaughtered billions in his wake. We've seen Agnes kill some witches who may or may not have killed her captors.

How do you know that Thanos didn't start along a similar path? That he started out with his version of witches trying to stop him for being evil? I don't need to flip my perspective. Agnes has been presented as being evil. The entire rest of your post is you ignoring what the show has shown to form your own head canon about Agnes. It is irrelevant and silly.

Saying she isn't evil for threatening to kill kids to manipulate Wanda just because those kids might not be normal human kids? Lol what. That is still evil. You are just blinded by your head canon.

[rhorle]

Unless you have evidence Thanos was attacked that runs contrary to his story(Titan was lost so he decided to enact his half genocide strategy everywhere so no other world would be wiped out due to overpopulation), I’m gonna go with he attacked first when he sent Loki with a bunch of Chitauri to fuck up shit in New York.

And yet you are ignoring all the evidence of Agnes being bad. Weird how that works isn't it? You'll look at supporting evidence in one instance but ignore it in another.

[rhorle]

I’m not arguing that Agatha is a good guy, I’m arguing that you made a bad comparison.

But you did. We don't know what happened pre-trail with Agatha just as we don't know what happened pre-attacks with Thanos. Yet one you are judging as evil because of the actions depicted on screen. While ignoring the actions of Agatha depicted on show.

[PACOX]

No, they understand emotion. They just lack empathy. But they are very often quite exceptional at manipulating the emotions of other people.

Antisocial personality disorder and behavior associated is often related to someone not understanding emotions. They aren't stupid, they can be told about the concept of emotions and even identify emotions are in other the same way you could describe 'color' to a blind person.

Picking up emotions often isn't natural to them, they are essentially blind to them and see the world through a very objective lense.

Hayward could be purposely manipulating Monica and Wanda because he knows they particular emotions he can take advantage of or their he could be totally unaware of their emotion - both something a 'sociopath' would do.

[rhorle]

That doesn’t mean she wasn’t evil, just that she didn’t attack the coven before they attacked her. My biggest reason for believing her evil is the fact that she’s drawing her power from the dark dimension... on top of everything else she’s doing currently.

But we don't know what set Thanos off on his path in the first place. Weird right? That a bunch of evil things depicted on the show which go beyond killing her own coven doesn't indicate evil but a bunch of evil things by Thanos shown in the MCU makes him evil.

[PACOX]

How do you know that Thanos didn't start along a similar path? That he started out with his version of witches trying to stop him for being evil? I don't need to flip my perspective. Agnes has been presented as being evil. The entire rest of your post is you ignoring what the show has shown to form your own head canon about Agnes. It is irrelevant and silly.

Saying she isn't evil for threatening to kill kids to manipulate Wanda just because those kids might not be normal human kids? Lol what. That is still evil. You are just blinded by your head canon.

Agnes has been presented as nothing but an inquisitive witch at this point. Eccentric maybe. Alignment neutral, definitely not evil at this point. Why should I trust the other witches we saw anymore than I trust her? Wanda is looking real evil to anyone who doesn't understand Wanda with the kids being part of whatever maniacal act she is involved in.

[rhorle]

Yes, we do. It was literally explained on screen.

So was what makes Agatha evil. So being exiled for trying to save your people is different then killing your coven after you committed a crime? Weird how they both started out with similar "not that evil" outcomes and both went down a both of doing evil stuff.

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Agnes has been presented as nothing but an inquisitive witch at this point. Eccentric maybe. Alignment neutral, definitely not evil at this point. Why should I trust the other witches we saw anymore than I trust her? Wanda is looking real evil to anyone who doesn't understand Wanda with the kids being part of whatever maniacal act she is involved in.

You are calling Hayward evil and sociopath based on a few spoken words. Yet say Agnes is just "inquisitive" despite all she did. At this point you are just going off of head canon and refusing to see anything else for whatever reason.

[Anastacy]

Agatha abused the laws of her coven. What do we normally do with convicted law-breakers? Oh yeah, punish them.

You can argue the laws were silly, or the punishment “too much”, but she did break them.

[PACOX]

You are calling Hayward evil and sociopath based on a few spoken words. Yet say Agnes is just "inquisitive" despite all she did. At this point you are just going off of head canon and refusing to see anything else for whatever reason.

No...I am not sold on Hayward being evil. I'm not sure what I think about Hayward yet because I can see him going different ways, from lame Iron Man villain to some other cool stuff that's going to be a slow burn. I think him being a particular big bad might be too on the nose this soon after Thanos.


Sociopath ≠ evil. I think that trait is very important to the character though regardless of who he turns out to be.


And how am I going off head canon? We literally have not seen enough of Agnes being Agatha to call her a villain yet. My own self criticism is that maybe I am giving the MCU too much credit when it comes to its allusions.

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Agatha abused the laws of her coven. What do we normally do with convicted law-breakers? Oh yeah, punish them.

You can argue the laws were silly, or the punishment “too much”, but she did break them.

Half the Avengers are technically criminals, including Cap.

Edit: I forgot Hayward straight up lied to out girl Wanda. He is a villain to me no matter what

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Agatha abused the laws of her coven. What do we normally do with convicted law-breakers? Oh yeah, punish them.

You can argue the laws were silly, or the punishment “too much”, but she did break them.

I'd argue that she seems pretty ok with the life force stealing thing, thus she's not exactly someone who cares about well doing good. Doubtful she cares about Wanda outside of the fact she is powerful but thats it, not out of kindness. Like in a professional way or selfishly(As in the power scares her that it could hurt Agatha).

[PACOX]

All this talk about Agnes and I think only one person spoke what Scarlet Witch means and perhaps why Agnes would have a reaction when she concludes Wanda is her.

Correct me if I am wrong, Wanda hasn't been Scarlet Witch up until now.

[Necomis]

No she has not been Scarlet Witch yet or been called that until now. That flash back it looked like the Mind Stone showed an image of the Scarlet Witch to her back when she got exposed to it.

As for Hayward, something about him rubs me the wrong way. He is not to be trusted at all.