Did kil'jaedan "code" the afterlife

[Ohvul]

Was ner'zhul (kil'jaedan) responsible for the original organization of the shadowlands?

Ie nerzhul is made into LK.
Told what to do, how to organize / envision this new miniature universe.
The primus was present, the depiction of death in 4 distinct categories

Then when Arthas put on the helm.
Nerzhul and Arthas mind in unison could work on developing the shadowlands. Both in means of pulling souls from the living into the death realm, but also the organisation/revolution of the realm of death.

Consequently bolvar puts on the Helm so as to best serve the shadowlands.

When sylvanas destroys the helm, she destroys the middle man controlling whoever they put in control down in the shadowlands. The trickle down responsibilities become amuck, and due to "time working differently in the shadowlands" we think these elaborate stories they speak of in the shadowlands as ancient historical tales, when in reality it just happened, just under a different ruler. The ruler of death serves the purpose of the realm of death, so its not their fault they are acting in a way rhat is against our own, it is just within their natural purpose to maintain order, towards the purpose of their role.

What was the shadowlands, before ner'zhul went in the helm?

Keep in mind during this entire time period, we now know the demons wanted Illidan to reach the helm, not Arthas, them having complete control over Illidan may or may not have been integral to their overall scheme, they just wanted things to oppose the natural order(a form of order they sought to create by creating the helm???). They also sorta wanted Illidan to be the light child did they not? More grand scheme this points to chaos wanting chaotic heads of life /death, the void wants ____ opposition? as the front of life and death?

[huth]

Was ner'zhul (kil'jaedan) responsible for the original organization of the shadowlands?

Ie nerzhul is made into LK.
Told what to do, how to organize / envision this new miniature universe.
The primus was present, the depiction of death in 4 distinct categories

Then when Arthas put on the helm.
Nerzhul and Arthas mind in unison could work on developing the shadowlands. Both in means of pulling souls from the living into the death realm, but also the organisation/revolution of the realm of death.

The only way you could come to that conclusion is by completely ignoring the lore.

The Shadowlands predate Kil'jaeden and the Burning Legion. The Nathrezim that caused Sargeras to create the Legion in the first place are strongly hinted to be from the Shadowlands. The artifacts Kil'jaeden used to create the Lich King are from the Shadowlands and have been created long after the Jailer was imprisoned in the Maw.

The Shadowlands aren't a miniature universe, either. They're infinite in scope, the 4 realms is just all we've gotten to see so far.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Setting aside the fact that Blizzard have been pretty clear that the Shadowlands are ancient history and that they hate Ner'zhul, why would a chaos-aligned demon lord seek to bring order to the establishment of the Shadowlands? Also the Kyrian at least date back to the Ordering of Azeroth, as that's when Odyn made his deal with Mueh'zala to see the Shadowlands.

It would be a neat twist, but it's clearly not the story that they're trying to tell. The story is quite clear that it's the Jailer who's been manipulating the Legion, not the other way around. The Helm of Domination and Frostmourne were orchestrated by him to use the work of the demons for his own gain, not the other way around.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Yes, actually. After being conscripted by Sargeras, Kil'jaeden enrolled in and eventually graduated from DIT (the Demonic Institute of Technology), majoring in CompSci but with a minor in Fel magic. After graduating he went on to pursue Anima Studies, the study of souls and their uses, and built the afterlife as a means to facilitate the development of the Lich King. In order to do this he needed to use the properties of the Twisting Nether to go back in time to ensure the Dreadlords would exist to suggest the creation of the Lich King and provide the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne, not fully realizing the implications of what he was doing. In fact, you can see evidence for Kil'jaeden being the First Ones by noting that you have never seen Kil'jaeden and the First Ones in a room at one time. Coincidentally, this same logic can be applied Sargeras, C'thun, or anything really, but let's keep focused on Kil'jaeden. After returning to the present, Kil'jaeden took the implements from the Dreadlords and sealed Ner'zhul within the Frozen Throne. With the rest being history. /s

As much as I want that story to be true, I was lying. Anyone who was deceived by my genius writing goofed. Kil'jaeden, like both the Titans and the Legion, have basically been retconned into being fools, and Kil'jaeden had no part in creating the Lich King anymore than apparently authorizing its creation. It is currently theorized that the Lich King was brought to Kil'jaeden by the Dreadlords. Regarding the realms of death, that was the First Ones.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Well, no, it was the First Ones.


So... ?

[Ryzeth]

No.

/thread

[Houle]

As much as I want that story to be true, I was lying. Anyone who was deceived by my genius writing goofed. Kil'jaeden, like both the Titans and the Legion, have basically been retconned into being fools, and Kil'jaeden had no part in creating the Lich King anymore than apparently authorizing its creation. It is currently theorized that the Lich King was brought to Kil'jaeden by the Dreadlords. Regarding the realms of death, that was the First Ones.

all of this is so true, the original WC3 writers are turning in their graves/new jobs

[huth]

As much as I want that story to be true, I was lying. Anyone who was deceived by my genius writing goofed. Kil'jaeden, like both the Titans and the Legion, have basically been retconned into being fools, and Kil'jaeden had no part in creating the Lich King anymore than apparently authorizing its creation. It is currently theorized that the Lich King was brought to Kil'jaeden by the Dreadlords. Regarding the realms of death, that was the First Ones.

Kil'jaeden is still responsible for providing the soul and indirectly wrecking the Jailer's plans for years through that. The Nathrezim only provided the Helm and sword, which has been canon for years.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Kil'jaeden is still responsible for providing the soul and indirectly wrecking the Jailer's plans for years through that. The Nathrezim only provided the Helm and sword, which has been canon for years.

While Kil'jaeden using Ner'zhul in this way may have damaged the Jailer's plans, which is really Ner'zhul's accomplishment for having a strong will and not Kil'jaeden's, this mistake was also partially responsible for the failure of the Second Invasion. I think there's a strong argument to be made that if Ner'zhul had been subservient and had not gone against the Legion, such as by helping Illidan find the Skull of Gul'dan, things would have turned out differently (i.e.: imagine a World of Warcraft where the Scourge did not lose Lordaeron and Silverpine, and was now free to maraud southward).

However, with the current changes to the creation of the Lich King, Kil'jaeden, and the Legion more generally, are made out to be fools that could not see the deception of the Dreadlords. While the Dreadlords have always been the ones who forged the armor, Kil'jaeden's direction is obviously no longer a factor. It's now obvious that Kil'jaeden either (1) had the plan brought to him and had did not question the motivation of the Dreadlords or (2) was deceived so completely by the Dreadlords that they more or less incepted the ideas into his mind to trick him into having them make the implements. While the latter case would be much more humiliating, either case makes Kil'jaeden a fool and takes away the accomplishments of the Legion (i.e.: it's no longer demonic magic that forged the Lich King, but it is simply an implement taken from the realms of death).

[huth]

(i.e.: it's no longer demonic magic that forged the Lich King, but it is simply an implement taken from the realms of death).

You mean like Kil'jaeden obtaining the items from the Shadowlands like it was in the lore for over a decade?

That's exactly what i said already. The only thing we learned in SL is who made them, not where they're from. And while Ner'zhul messed things up, Kil'jaeden is the one who sent him there. Had it not been for Ner'zhul's own messing with things, the outcome would also have been the one desired by the Legion, so the Nathrezim didn't really have to do much to sell the idea to KJ.

What's also new is that the Nathrezim are at minimum tripple-crossing just about everybody, but that's at best semi-related.

[StationaryHawk]

You mean like Kil'jaeden obtaining the items from the Shadowlands like it was in the lore for over a decade?

That's exactly what i said already. The only thing we learned in SL is who made them, not where they're from. And while Ner'zhul messed things up, Kil'jaeden is the one who sent him there. Had it not been for Ner'zhul's own messing with things, the outcome would also have been the one desired by the Legion, so the Nathrezim didn't really have to do much to sell the idea to KJ.

What's also new is that the Nathrezim are at minimum tripple-crossing just about everybody, but that's at best semi-related.

Over a decade? Even Chronicle claims that Frostmourne was forged by the nathrezim.

[cparle87]

While Kil'jaeden using Ner'zhul in this way may have damaged the Jailer's plans, which is really Ner'zhul's accomplishment for having a strong will and not Kil'jaeden's, this mistake was also partially responsible for the failure of the Second Invasion. I think there's a strong argument to be made that if Ner'zhul had been subservient and had not gone against the Legion, such as by helping Illidan find the Skull of Gul'dan, things would have turned out differently (i.e.: imagine a World of Warcraft where the Scourge did not lose Lordaeron and Silverpine, and was now free to maraud southward).

However, with the current changes to the creation of the Lich King, Kil'jaeden, and the Legion more generally, are made out to be fools that could not see the deception of the Dreadlords. While the Dreadlords have always been the ones who forged the armor, Kil'jaeden's direction is obviously no longer a factor. It's now obvious that Kil'jaeden either (1) had the plan brought to him and had did not question the motivation of the Dreadlords or (2) was deceived so completely by the Dreadlords that they more or less incepted the ideas into his mind to trick him into having them make the implements. While the latter case would be much more humiliating, either case makes Kil'jaeden a fool and takes away the accomplishments of the Legion (i.e.: it's no longer demonic magic that forged the Lich King, but it is simply an implement taken from the realms of death).

My personal leaning is towards #1. Kil'jaeden was shown to be accepting of smart plans brought forth by his subordinates, unlike Archimonde's "do what I say and don't fail or you're dead" method of leading. Though I do disagree on the fool part. This is just duality in play. Either a genius or a fool nothing in between. Nothing stops a brilliant planner and schemer from being used, it doesn't diminish his own actions.

[Houle]

You mean like Kil'jaeden obtaining the items from the Shadowlands like it was in the lore for over a decade?

That's exactly what i said already. The only thing we learned in SL is who made them, not where they're from. And while Ner'zhul messed things up, Kil'jaeden is the one who sent him there. Had it not been for Ner'zhul's own messing with things, the outcome would also have been the one desired by the Legion, so the Nathrezim didn't really have to do much to sell the idea to KJ.

What's also new is that the Nathrezim are at minimum tripple-crossing just about everybody, but that's at best semi-related.

LOL. "over a decade"
hard bullshit, the helmet and frostmourne coming from the shadowlands is a retcon that came with this very addon. not a minute before.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

LOL. "over a decade"
hard bullshit, the helmet and frostmourne coming from the shadowlands is a retcon that came with this very addon. not a minute before.

It has never been said explicitly where Frostmourne came from, just it had a relation with the Natherzeim...which they are very relevant in SL. Said natherzeim are also known for cunning and infiltrating species, its not really crazy they fooled the Legion.


"Warcraft III writers rolling in their graves"

Dude they probably aren't bothered by it, so stop clutching your pearls

[huth]

"Warcraft III writers rolling in their graves"

Dude they probably aren't bothered by it, so stop clutching your pearls

For that matter, they're very much alive and some of them still work at Blizzard. Possibly even on WoW.

[Magical Mudcrab]

You mean like Kil'jaeden obtaining the items from the Shadowlands like it was in the lore for over a decade?

I don't have an issue with anything else in the post; however, it should be said there is a distinct difference between something being forged by the Nathrezim, back when they were simply another type of demon, and something explicitly coming from the Shadowlands. While it has been obtained from the Nathrezim for over a decade, the understanding that the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne actually came from the Shadowlands is recent and is recent to the last few months. In the original lore, it was understood that the Nathrezim forged the implements on the order of Kil'jaeden, which would have been imbued with power via demonic magic, and then were given to him to create the Lich King. It would be fair to think that the Legion is probably ultra-pragmatic, and probably take powerful weapons from worlds they ruin and replicate them when able to perpetuate their never-ending war, but taking away unique feats of demonic power from the Legion, when these were longstanding accomplishments, is a little awkward, especially when the Legion in particular has been repeatedly trivialized over the last few years.

[RCA]

I don't have an issue with anything else in the post; however, it should be said there is a distinct difference between something being forged by the Nathrezim, back when they were simply another type of demon, and something explicitly coming from the Shadowlands. While it has been obtained from the Nathrezim for over a decade, the understanding that the Helm of Domination and Frostmourne actually came from the Shadowlands is recent and is recent to the last few months. In the original lore, it was understood that the Nathrezim forged the implements on the order of Kil'jaeden, which would have been imbued with power via demonic magic, and then were given to him to create the Lich King. It would be fair to think that the Legion is probably ultra-pragmatic, and probably take powerful weapons from worlds they ruin and replicate them when able to perpetuate their never-ending war, but taking away unique feats of demonic power from the Legion, when these were longstanding accomplishments, is a little awkward, especially when the Legion in particular has been repeatedly trivialized over the last few years.

good thoughts that I agree with, but lately imo the nathrezim have been vastly diminished in the overall story. They're a walking contradiction, based on mountainized stacks of what they need to accomplish.

[tommyhil622]

Was ner'zhul (kil'jaedan) responsible for the original organization of the shadowlands?

Ie nerzhul is made into LK.
Told what to do, how to organize / envision this new miniature universe.
The primus was present, the depiction of death in 4 distinct categories

Then when Arthas put on the helm.
Nerzhul and Arthas mind in unison could work on developing the shadowlands. Both in means of pulling souls from the living into the death realm, but also the organisation/revolution of the realm of death.

Consequently bolvar puts on the Helm so as to best serve the shadowlands.

When sylvanas destroys the helm, she destroys the middle man controlling whoever they put in control down in the shadowlands. The trickle down responsibilities become amuck, and due to "time working differently in the shadowlands" we think these elaborate stories they speak of in the shadowlands as ancient historical tales, when in reality it just happened, just under a different ruler. The ruler of death serves the purpose of the realm of death, so its not their fault they are acting in a way rhat is against our own, it is just within their natural purpose to maintain order, towards the purpose of their role.

What was the shadowlands, before ner'zhul went in the helm?

Keep in mind during this entire time period, we now know the demons wanted Illidan to reach the helm, not Arthas, them having complete control over Illidan may or may not have been integral to their overall scheme, they just wanted things to oppose the natural order(a form of order they sought to create by creating the helm???). They also sorta wanted Illidan to be the light child did they not? More grand scheme this points to chaos wanting chaotic heads of life /death, the void wants ____ opposition? as the front of life and death?

what does Ner'zhul have to do with the shadowlands? Other than the armor/weapon made by runecarver? You realize that the shadowlands existed for countless eons before even Kil'jeaden became a demon? Before Sargeras became the leader of the Burning Legion? Before he left the pantheon, and probably even before he was even born? The Orcs of dreanor were probably not even walking on their planet yet, not sure if you realize how long that is?

[Ohvul]

what does Ner'zhul have to do with the shadowlands? Other than the armor/weapon made by runecarver? You realize that the shadowlands existed for countless eons before even Kil'jeaden became a demon? Before Sargeras became the leader of the Burning Legion? Before he left the pantheon, and probably even before he was even born? The Orcs of dreanor were probably not even walking on their planet yet, not sure if you realize how long that is?

We still don't know how the lich king manifests inside the shadowlands. The matter that makes up you as a being has existed for thousands of years as well, just because something has existed doesn't mean it takes a coherently tangible form to the other forms of matter which are capable of observation / exist.

[Myradin]

all of this is so true, the original WC3 writers are turning in their graves/new jobs

I'm sure they thought so hard on that particular bunch of lore and were so attached to it, and it didn't just boil down to one of them going:

"Okay where did Kil'jaeden get the lich king stuff?"

"The nathrezeim did it"

And then wrote it down.