Mythic keys... pointless?

[shise]

Mythic key runs have literally nothing to do with this game.

You have a timer, so that right away makes it the most important thing; rush through trash and aoe them down as fast as possible, pay attention to affixes...

Dungeons in wow were meant to be strategically driven, using CC and class utility (I know, we use class utility in mythic too, but so fast that you don´t get to enjoy it).

The problem is that they are mandatory. You can't just skip them if you want to raid mythic, because you will pretty quickly fall way behind everyone else and the your performance will be lower. This never happened before, skills used to matter more than equipment or.. let alone, borrowed powers.

Now, I know that a lot of people who play every day for hours will laugh at this. But you know, I too used to be a to raider but life evolves; I can´t spend extra time out of the raids and you can totally feel a HUGE difference between that now a days and years ago. If you simply log in to raid, you are behind in a thousand mandatory grinds, this has a direct effect on your performance.

Player skills and group coordination were core essences in wow.. today they are not.

Why can´t we just have properly designed dungeons with 2 or 3 difficulty levels.. and that is it? no borrowed power grinding systems... This is the design of business men who wants us hooked up on a long list of mandatory crap you must do in order to perform. I did much prefer it when gamers were creating an amazing game where you would hook yourself in out of genuine interest and skill development.

I find mythic keys to be one of those silly designs. Smart business wise, poor game-wise. End game loot should come from raid bosses and pvp activity, period. Performance should come from player skills + gear from those bosses, not from borrowed systems.

[Accendor]

Mythic key runs have literally nothing to do with this game.

You have a timer, so that right away makes it the most important thing; rush through trash and aoe them down as fast as possible, pay attention to affixes...

Dungeons in wow were meant to be strategically driven, using CC and class utility (I know, we use class utility in mythic too, but so fast that you don´t get to enjoy it).

The problem is that they are mandatory. You can't just skip them if you want to raid mythic, because you will pretty quickly fall way behind everyone else and the your performance will be lower. This never happened before, skills used to matter more than equipment or.. let alone, borrowed powers.

Now, I know that a lot of people who play every day for hours will laugh at this. But you know, I too used to be a to raider but life evolves; I can´t spend extra time out of the raids and you can totally feel a HUGE difference between that now a days and years ago. If you simply log in to raid, you are behind in a thousand mandatory grinds, this has a direct effect on your performance.

Player skills and group coordination were core essences in wow.. today they are not.

Why can´t we just have properly designed dungeons with 2 or 3 difficulty levels.. and that is it? no borrowed power grinding systems... This is the design of business men who wants us hooked up on a long list of mandatory crap you must do in order to perform. I did much prefer it when gamers were creating an amazing game where you would hook yourself in out of genuine interest and skill development.

I find mythic keys to be one of those silly designs. Smart business wise, poor game-wise. End game loot should come from raid bosses and pvp activity, period. Performance should come from player skills + gear from those bosses, not from borrowed systems.

I am 6/10m now and I am logging in 2 times a week for 3hours to raid.
That's it, thats all. Not even doing m+ for months now because its simply not worthwhile.

The situation is completely different than what you just described. There is nothing to do right now, we are in the mid of a content draught.its all in your head.

[DazManianDevil]

I know this is only my personal opinion and a total anecdote, but having played since 2006 I can only recall 1 time I had a dungeon go as you describe, and that was the final trash pull before Kael'thas in Magister's Terrance where I had to LoS freezing trap pull.
Currently in Shadowlands I don't do M+, I don't PvP, I don't do callings etc.

I raid log Mythic, 220ilvl and only a few renown levels behind everyone else in my raid. I'm not sure how I'm so badly behind? And yes due to work I've only played the game 6 hours a week for the last few months, seems fine to me. No AP neck levels, no Artifact weapons; hell even doing 1 key a week would only net me a 1-2% chance of getting a 226 strong enough to replace what I have so I don't bother.

It's been years since I felt this removed from the treadmill.

[hulkgor]

Mythic key runs have literally nothing to do with this game.

You have a timer, so that right away makes it the most important thing; rush through trash and aoe them down as fast as possible, pay attention to affixes...

Dungeons in wow were meant to be strategically driven, using CC and class utility (I know, we use class utility in mythic too, but so fast that you don´t get to enjoy it).

The problem is that they are mandatory. You can't just skip them if you want to raid mythic, because you will pretty quickly fall way behind everyone else and the your performance will be lower. This never happened before, skills used to matter more than equipment or.. let alone, borrowed powers.

Now, I know that a lot of people who play every day for hours will laugh at this. But you know, I too used to be a to raider but life evolves; I can´t spend extra time out of the raids and you can totally feel a HUGE difference between that now a days and years ago. If you simply log in to raid, you are behind in a thousand mandatory grinds, this has a direct effect on your performance.

Player skills and group coordination were core essences in wow.. today they are not.

Why can´t we just have properly designed dungeons with 2 or 3 difficulty levels.. and that is it? no borrowed power grinding systems... This is the design of business men who wants us hooked up on a long list of mandatory crap you must do in order to perform. I did much prefer it when gamers were creating an amazing game where you would hook yourself in out of genuine interest and skill development.

I find mythic keys to be one of those silly designs. Smart business wise, poor game-wise. End game loot should come from raid bosses and pvp activity, period. Performance should come from player skills + gear from those bosses, not from borrowed systems.

Nice blog post. /s

Personally, i love M+ and consider them the most successful feature WoW implemented since Raids at its launch. I also loved Challenge Modes (the earlier iteration of M+, but those had vastly less replayability).

And honestly, you're being a bit silly when you go with "player skills and group coordination" not being core essences in the game, when in M+ at a certain point, those are exactly the requirements to keep progressing.

Also, you don't have to partake in them. You already have the 2 or 3 difficulty levels with Normal, Heroic and M0, so you have what you wanted. Why can't others also have what they want?

sigh.

And no, they are not mandatory, just like PvP isn't mandatory. Is it helpful if you're into it? Are you a world first raider whose guild demands every possible edge or advantage? Guessing not, so just don't do what you don't like? Geez, weird notion, i know.

[Gaidax]

If you want to be optimal for mythic raiding you take that little extra step and frankly 1 or even 4 m+14 runs per week is not THAT much to ask for, for what amounts a choice between 2 226 items per week.

But it's also not really mandatory. You can just do one single m+14 and you will get odd upgrades out of it too

And quite frankly it being a time attack works amazing for me, because it means people have incentive to be done with this fast and not just prance around strategizing over some shitty 5 mob pack that takes 15 seconds more to down than average.

[hulkgor]

End game loot should come from raid bosses and pvp activity, period. Performance should come from player skills + gear from those bosses, not from borrowed systems.

This is also absolutely absurd. Why the distinction? Because you don't like one of them? And what, also bashing borrowed systems which always been a thing in WoW? Legendaries, Azerites, Tier bonuses, etc? Yea, you might just need to stop playing since it doesn't seem for you anymore.

[Gourbaak]

mythic+ are amazing, they fit perfectly in the game and aren't mandatory at all for mythic raids

[FakePizza]

Whats pointless is raiding atm,still zero loot from mythic raiding....near 20 boss kills....you waste and waste hours in a raid because the way mythic raids are tuned,one person screws up something its pretty much a wipe.All the time and effort put into it and get no reward for it.Other pointless thing is having 4 different raid settings...one is enough and those who want to push harder it should be something like Ulduar had.

All these difficulties and you skip pretty much all of them and the one you should be doing is not rewarding you....

If it werent for m+ this game would be beyond boring.M+ is big part of wow and I can't see it anymore without it.

[crakerjack]

A thousand mandatory grinds, in shadowlands? It’s almost as if we’re not playing the same game if you think it’s riddled with grinds left and right. IMO there’s so few grinds that I consider it one of the most alt friendly expansions ever.

[munkeyinorbit]

Mythic key runs have literally nothing to do with this game.

You have a timer, so that right away makes it the most important thing; rush through trash and aoe them down as fast as possible, pay attention to affixes...

Dungeons in wow were meant to be strategically driven, using CC and class utility (I know, we use class utility in mythic too, but so fast that you don´t get to enjoy it).

The problem is that they are mandatory. You can't just skip them if you want to raid mythic, because you will pretty quickly fall way behind everyone else and the your performance will be lower. This never happened before, skills used to matter more than equipment or.. let alone, borrowed powers.

Now, I know that a lot of people who play every day for hours will laugh at this. But you know, I too used to be a to raider but life evolves; I can´t spend extra time out of the raids and you can totally feel a HUGE difference between that now a days and years ago. If you simply log in to raid, you are behind in a thousand mandatory grinds, this has a direct effect on your performance.

Player skills and group coordination were core essences in wow.. today they are not.

Why can´t we just have properly designed dungeons with 2 or 3 difficulty levels.. and that is it? no borrowed power grinding systems... This is the design of business men who wants us hooked up on a long list of mandatory crap you must do in order to perform. I did much prefer it when gamers were creating an amazing game where you would hook yourself in out of genuine interest and skill development.

I find mythic keys to be one of those silly designs. Smart business wise, poor game-wise. End game loot should come from raid bosses and pvp activity, period. Performance should come from player skills + gear from those bosses, not from borrowed systems.

Get with the times. There are multiple paths for gear now. If you are too lazy then that's a you problem. Don't like it? There are plenty of other games you could try.

[parasight]

I read the entire opening post twice. I didn't find one sentence that wasn't factually wrong, conjecture, or uninformed opinion.

[Ohvul]

How is raid logging any different than lfr from a gameplay viewpoint?

From the social side I see the difference, just if you're raid logging, choosing to only socialize when you raid, then obviously you aren't milking the game for all of your lifes joy. Why does being cutting edge matter, this games as it has always been for end game raiding. You push it hard for the first few weeks, then you grind the raid. Anyone still doing mythic plus so that their crap B tier guild can kill denathrius is still doing so because they lack the skill to kill it with the gear that other guilds have proven it takes.

Thats okay, it just makes no difference for guilds progressing now vs coming back to clear next tier. Its guilds/players fault for thinking that grinding out dungeons is going to make them more capable next tier. Find a guild that doesn't think gear grinds should be mandatory this late into launch lmao.

[msdos]

The addicts just call you lazy anytime you say you don't want to grind in this game. Also good luck getting into mythic raids without doing M+. Everyone posting here doing Mythic raid is already in established groups. Mythic raiders are raid logging, that means the game is terrible imo.

Casuals can't progress and Mythic raiders are raid logging... Hmmm....

[Alroxas]

Mythic key runs have literally nothing to do with this game.

Disagree. The problem with Dungeons prior to Challenge Mode and M+ is that they were dated. Only useful up to X point and then considered irrelevant.

Consider Cataclysm which launched with eight dungeons which became mostly irrelevant for the 2 updated dungeons in 4.1 which was then replaced the 3 new dungeons in 4.3.

Challenge Mode and M+ brought dungeons back to relevancy long after they are introduced at expansion launch. They continue to stay relevant as Blizzard updates ilv of the gear so that it's relevant.

You have a timer, so that right away makes it the most important thing; rush through trash and aoe them down as fast as possible, pay attention to affixes...

A gross oversimplification. Sure mass AoE pull and AoE burst would be the general preferred strategy. In fact we saw this in the early years of MDI and as a consequence, both dungeon design and game mechanics have been changed. (One of the reasons for the AoE cap change that we're seeing in SL.)

Additionally, the affixes (at least some of them) are focused on being anti-timer based. Bursting and Bolstering for instance. Granted their are strategies for certain affixes which bring in tactics that players develop and evolve.

Moreover, the seasonal affix also brings a layer of strategic thinking to dungeons. For Prideful, most groups try to find routes to bring that buff into boss fights as much as possible. But we're even seeing some strategy (especially in the MDI) to skip the prideful mob because they can be such a time sink (even with the buff that follows).

Even the previous season, N'zoth seasonal affix, brought some interesting routes as those mini-bosses provided rogue-like skips.

The problem is that they are mandatory. You can't just skip them if you want to raid mythic, because you will pretty quickly fall way behind everyone else and the your performance will be lower. This never happened before, skills used to matter more than equipment or.. let alone, borrowed powers.

Funny, I don't see you complaining about PvP. Because for SL season 1, PvP is the best method to get an ilv 233 weapon way earlier than any other method of grind provided you could get a good arena group up.

Player skills and group coordination were core essences in wow.. today they are not.

That's not quite true because if gear trumps everything, then why are there so many complaints about r.io? Or rather complaints that people can't get into M+ groups without the "right" r.io score / # of dungeons completed. Currently the only content I can think of that doesn't require player skills or group coordination but does require some ilv requirement is the LFR system.

no borrowed power grinding systems... This is the design of business men who wants us hooked up on a long list of mandatory crap you must do in order to perform. I did much prefer it when gamers were creating an amazing game where you would hook yourself in out of genuine interest and skill development.

Borrowed power stems from a bigger issue of game development specifically to providing a balance to player power as that power continues to scale throughout all content. And honestly, no borrowed power systems also means some very negative gameplay loops.

For instance, let's say that the legion artifacts are still useful + azerite armor + heart of azeroth are all systems still supported in SL. For a new player that would mean they would need to do Legion grinds AND BFA grinds on top of SL grinds.

Do you really want new players to go into Maw of Souls to grind for Artifact Power and still do Island Expeditions for Azerite Power plus Anima farming for Renown? Talk about barrier of entry for a game...

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Mythic raiders are raid logging, that means the game is terrible imo.

Thats a horrible metric to use.

[Sunnydee]

I have fun in keys. And i play beacuse i want to have fun. So no, not pointless.

[msdos]

Please explain why that's a terrible metric to use. If people only log in to raid, how is that good? Please explain.

[Kokolums]

Whats pointless is raiding atm,still zero loot from mythic raiding.

The current meta is to not bother with bosses at all. Just get into a mythic CN raid lockout and farm trash for226 BoEs. Last one I was in, 5 226 BoE dropped. Just keep doing that for hours and hours and get loaded up with 226.

[msdos]

Funny, I don't see you complaining about PvP. Because for SL season 1, PvP is the best method to get an ilv 233 weapon way earlier than any other method of grind provided you could get a good arena group up.

This doesn't even have anything to do with anything, you're just dangling it above the person's head as a type of argument when it really isn't. Getting the 233 is still a grind. All the pvp gear caps out, you have to grind up all the Renown stuff and just keep grinding honor endlessly and upgrading all the gear.

Ironic that you said something about gross oversimplification then turned around to gross simplify the pvp gearing process lmao. If you typed less filler words you'd have less risk of contradicting yourself ya'know.

[DazManianDevil]

Please explain why that's a terrible metric to use. If people only log in to raid, how is that good? Please explain.

Personally, I enjoy raiding Mythic. In previous tiers during BFA especially, the incentive to do M+ for titanforging, Sockets etc whilst also doing islands and WQ spam, I personally felt like I had to play 15+ hours a week outside raid to supplement what I enjoyed, raiding.
Now? The rewards from M+ are largely meaningless and pitiful after the first 2-3 cache weeks. I'm personally okay with not chasing sockets in every slot, titanforged Dice trinket or the ever filling AP meter.

Funny enough this reminds me of Wrath. Sure I liked playing way too many hours, but it wasn't needed and I could raid log and do what I actually enjoy; Raid.