Now that its been proven min maxes are the majority will content change?

[Tyris Flare]

Precisely. Is NF my best choice from a min-max perspective as a balance druid? Yes. Is it also the most obvious choice thematically? Also yes. Same for Pallies and Kyrian, etc.

This might shock the OP and others, but Blizzard seems to have worked to make the obvious thematic choice for a class also very good choices for character power for those same classes.

Necrolord definitely what I think about when I see "Resto Druid"

[msdos]

194 ilevel, 14 renown, 0/10 bosses down on Heroic

Define "extremely bad" because it seems like you don't actually have any idea

Define extremely bad? I'm sorry, does me not playing the game mean I don't know what's going on? Lol?

No one picks it, it's bad, Kyrian Frost DK is on bottom. But I didn't clear heroic so that means I'm wrong or something, I dunno. Come up with better logic than "oh you didnt do this in the game so um you can't have an opinion", it's just lazy, ignorant and low IQ.

[Simple Rick]

I think players want new abilities in expansions to freshen up gameplay. The problem with just offering cosmetic variants of the same ability is that mechanically it would all feel the same. And it wouldn't feel like you were getting much tactile variety for as much visual options you're getting. Especially painful when it's a major feature point of an expansion, these new abilities that are going to be the bulk of what is changing for your character potentially in gameplay. If everyone got all the options as well, it wouldn't feel like you had any choice or agency.

In expansions like BC and Wrath, new abilities were added flatly to the new game. The bloat eventually when removed resulted in a lot of complaining, and with the new talents in Mists, they couldn't just keep adding to the talent tree forever because it would result in more bloat later and again another large pruning that people would complain about. So, abilities offered on a more temporary basis were introduced so that the pain of removal wasn't as high, though it would become more frequent. In an ideal world all the Covenant Powers would have been balanced to be equal and the power wouldn't have been an issue - but players still gravitate to whatever number is higher by however little it is as long as a guide is telling them to do it.

I think just being given flat class abilities, with no choice in visual cosmetic, like in BC and Wrath, holds generally the problem that mechanically it can make classes and specs feel like they aren't changing enough to spice things up enough and also can lead down a road where more classes and specs start to feel the same, and brings about a lot of homogenization that people seem to also not like. Also, people may then feel that they don't really have any agency in changing how their characters play from expansion to expansion either, if so much new content is always just added to everyone who plays those classes or specs. Compounded when offered the same mechanical ability that has different choice visuals, it also plays into that issue of the choice ultimately not being very impactful (and maybe also resulting in less abilities total for an expansion, because the art is going to the same ability in different visual trappings). Ultimately a feeling I think would come around that the choice doesn't feel meaningful because it doesn't impact gameplay. Some players literally only care about gameplay, about raiding, about numbers, while some other players prefer cosmetics and visuals. We seem to see from data that players always will pick higher numbers because ultimately they want to succeed. The content could be made easier, so that all options are so obviously viable it isn't even a question at that point, but then players would probably just lose interest in the content itself rather than being satisfied by the options they have.

I mean in your last paragraph you more or less defeated your own argument. Its been over fifteen years now and barring maybe classic early on the community has continually showed it wants what gives them the best chance of success. Even when we had... was it 61 talents points? Few classes had more then 2-3 point they considered a free choice.

Personally I don't really know if blizzard needs to add new abilities each expansion myself but if they feel it is such a strong need I would rather they simply change the talent rows rather then trying to tie story to a system that has never succeeded in its goal of diversity or customization.

The closest blizzard has gotten to the dream of people picking unique builds has been that some people will lock their character into pvp or pve progression if the talent is powerful enough to justify it. That has been their grand victory with covenants having players decide what progression path to essentially lock themselves into...

[unbound]

With covenants we finally found a way to put to the old argument to rest. Min maxing is what matters to the vast majority of players. Most specs have upwards of 90% of the active player base picking the covenant that offers them the best performance. (There are some exceptions like havoc but that specs dead and its abysmal numbers seem to point towards min maxing rather then against.)

Now that the old argument has been put to rest do you think in the future we will see blizzard moving away from meaningless systems like covenants and relics now that it has been shown players only care about what gives the best performance barring a tiny minority?

So why are 3 of my toons not using the best covenant?

You've shown an excellent example of what is known as the tyranny of the majority. Who cares that most people use this or that? Why do you have a problem with players having choices? What do you have against players who don't use the "best" choices?

I've clearly demonstrated to my guild over the years and a few expansions that the "best" choices aren't always best for everyone. I regularly perform at 85% to 95% of the warcraftlogs maximum for my item level and rarely ever use all of the "best" choices. Considering my age, there is no chance that I'll ever be the absolute top of the charts for my item level.

If you want a game with no choices, there are plenty of lousy mobile games for you to choose from. Leave that nonsense out of games like WoW though.

[Razion]

I mean in your last paragraph you more or less defeated your own argument. Its been over fifteen years now and barring maybe classic early on the community has continually showed it wants what gives them the best chance of success. Even when we had... was it 61 talents points? Few classes had more then 2-3 point they considered a free choice.

Personally I don't really know if blizzard needs to add new abilities each expansion myself but if they feel it is such a strong need I would rather they simply change the talent rows rather then trying to tie story to a system that has never succeeded in its goal of diversity or customization.

The closest blizzard has gotten to the dream of people picking unique builds has been that some people will lock their character into pvp or pve progression if the talent is powerful enough to justify it. That has been their grand victory with covenants having players decide what progression path to essentially lock themselves into...

I mean, no? I mean, that's what I'm saying, that players want what gives them the most chance of success. The point system of classic isn't a good model to follow -- they tried this in Legion, with Artifact Weapons, even -- and people just said that the choices didn't feel impactful because they were more or less mostly locked in anyway, like how they were in Classic. Arguably a handful of points wasn't enough then for enough build variety and it sure as heck isn't as much variety as the current talent system offers now. I think people would just complain if that way was retreaded.

As the data has shown with Covenants, people are just migrating to what Covenants provide the highest numbers. I wouldn't call that a success in terms of choice because it seems ultimately people aren't valuing it over the optimization. People, as we've seen in the past since BC, Wrath, Mists, etc. still want gameplay variety to choose from, but they just aren't willing to choose what is weaker. But making all these options exactly mechanically the same isn't feasible because it wouldn't feel any different. At that point, the differences are just visual and I'm arguing people would just complain about a lack of gameplay variety and eventually homogenization (and also complain about huge cuts to bloat, if the abilities aren't temporary).

[Simple Rick]

So why are 3 of my toons not using the best covenant?

You've shown an excellent example of what is known as the tyranny of the majority. Who cares that most people use this or that? Why do you have a problem with players having choices? What do you have against players who don't use the "best" choices?

I've clearly demonstrated to my guild over the years and a few expansions that the "best" choices aren't always best for everyone. I regularly perform at 85% to 95% of the warcraftlogs maximum for my item level and rarely ever use all of the "best" choices. Considering my age, there is no chance that I'll ever be the absolute top of the charts for my item level.

If you want a game with no choices, there are plenty of lousy mobile games for you to choose from. Leave that nonsense out of games like WoW though.

How to I explain that a vast minority still has a few people doing it?

Really weird question so im just gonna go past it and destroy your other argument.

The true is its harmful to the game overall. These choices do nothing more then limit new players who are not savvy enough to know ahead of time that their choice could very well lock them out of later parts of the game. It also helps push pointless customization like the disaster of relics where everyone wants two to maybe three specific ones but are given dozens of useless filler ones they need to upgrade.

There are plenty of lousy mobile games for you to choose from but the people have spoken. The most effective choice dominates this game just as it has for 15 years.

- - - Updated - - -

I mean, no? I mean, that's what I'm saying, that players want what gives them the most chance of success. The point system of classic isn't a good model to follow -- they tried this in Legion, with Artifact Weapons, even -- and people just said that the choices didn't feel impactful because they were more or less mostly locked in anyway, like how they were in Classic. Arguably a handful of points wasn't enough then for enough build variety and it sure as heck isn't as much variety as the current talent system offers now. I think people would just complain if that way was retreaded.

As the data has shown with Covenants, people are just migrating to what Covenants provide the highest numbers. I wouldn't call that a success in terms of choice because it seems ultimately people aren't valuing it over the optimization. People, as we've seen in the past since BC, Wrath, Mists, etc. still want gameplay variety to choose from, but they just aren't willing to choose what is weaker. But making all these options exactly mechanically the same isn't feasible because it wouldn't feel any different. At that point, the differences are just visual and I'm arguing people would just complain about a lack of gameplay variety and eventually homogenization (and also complain about huge cuts to bloat, if the abilities aren't temporary).

I can see what your saying now I just can't see a possible solution to it. People might be asking for choice but they are actively choosing not to have it. I would side with picking around their actions rather then what they claim to want.

[A Chozo]

Obviously not, everyone knows that min-maxing is for pros and scrubs alike, effective min-maxing is what is in question, and no sane dev will forfeit good, interesting features in favor of such degenerative gameplay - otherwise we would have 4 specs at maximum, because there would be no point into designing anything else since people simply google as you said - the "min-maxing".

[Cyanu]

Its not as simple as this i'm afraid

During beta there were times when the Best covenant was a poor fit in terms of flavour and player were outraged for being forced to play fairie death knights and Angel locks, blizzard nerfed such cases almost as if they wanted the Best covenant to be the Best fit

Is anyone surprised that palas are kyrian and druids/Hunters night fae?

How likely is it for some one Who mains druid to not want to be night fae? If on the other hand all druids were venthyr due to performance your arguement would be bulletproof

[LazuOG]

If you ignore that the best covenant also often are the best fit themeatically, sure.

How exactly is that true? Fairy warlocks? Necro/vampire shamans? Righteous kyrian rogues? You can't seriously defend that the power choices are the VAST majority here.

[Belloc]

Does this prove that the vast majority are min-maxers? Or does it prove that the vast majority follow what a guide tells them to do?

[Nurasu]

Does this prove that the vast majority are min-maxers? Or does it prove that the vast majority follow what a guide tells them to do?

What's the difference? So many people on this forum said players would utilize their freedom with covenants and min-maxers were going to get taken down a notch, but that hasn't materialized at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Or are the most fun to use. Loads of Warriors I know picked Venthyr, not just because it's the best ST Covenant, but because Condemn is hella more fun to use than one-off abilities.

But yeah, Night Fae Druids and Hunters, Kyrian Paladins and Priests, and Necrolords DKs just make sense, to use only these examples.

Priests largely aren't going Kyrian tho, and only this patch are some priests going Night Fae because it's stronger now for Holy. Before Holy priests were Necrolord - very thematic indeed.

[LazuOG]

Does this prove that the vast majority are min-maxers? Or does it prove that the vast majority follow what a guide tells them to do?

What exactly are you trying to say here? Why do people in this forum have such a hate boner for guides? Some things are mentioned throughout a multitude of guides because they simply are the best by a substantial margin. It's a numbers game. There will always be a de facto best and nothing will change that. You sound like a grumpy old man who is mad about the internet because his 7yr old grandson googled the answers to his crossword puzzle. Your bitter attitude is not gonna change anything.

[Rusken]

I don't think people googling "x spec best covenant" and picking what icy-veins says can be considered min-maxing, to be honest. A very large portion of players don't go any further than getting the base answer to questions like that, picking it and never thinking about it again. Hell most of them wouldn't know WHY the Covenant they picked is best other than "my numbers are higher".

I'd consider a min-maxer in SL to be someone who's filling their weekly vault with 15s, 2200 rating and at least 7/10M rewards. Clearing out WQ's everyday and doing all the optional things. Someone who's still progressing Heroic is in no way min-maxing anything.

[Mehrunes]

If you ignore that the best covenant also often are the best fit themeatically, sure.

Except for the part where Night Fae is the best covenant for the highest amount of specs despite thematically fitting maybe three classes. Followed by Kyrian, that fits two.

[Kaver]

If you ignore that the best covenant also often are the best fit themeatically, sure.

Yeah that just not true at all. Only really for Hunters and Druids.

[Nurasu]

I don't think people googling "x spec best covenant" and picking what icy-veins says can be considered min-maxing, to be honest. A very large portion of players don't go any further than getting the base answer to questions like that, picking it and never thinking about it again. Hell most of them wouldn't know WHY the Covenant they picked is best other than "my numbers are higher".

I'd consider a min-maxer in SL to be someone who's filling their weekly vault with 15s, 2200 rating and at least 7/10M rewards. Clearing out WQ's everyday and doing all the optional things. Someone who's still progressing Heroic is in no way min-maxing anything.

If they didn't want the best option or didn't care what it was, they would never Google it - they would immediately go with which one they liked the best, and that's not happening. The idea that looking at a guide isn't min-maxing to some extent is just incorrect.

[Kaver]

Except for the part where Night Fae is the best covenant for the highest amount of specs despite thematically fitting maybe three classes. Followed by Kyrian, that fits two.

People try to argue that classes like Warlocks and Rogues fit the Night Fae thematically which it just ridiculous.

[Mehrunes]

Its not as simple as this i'm afraid

During beta there were times when the Best covenant was a poor fit in terms of flavour and player were outraged for being forced to play fairie death knights and Angel locks, blizzard nerfed such cases almost as if they wanted the Best covenant to be the Best fit

Is anyone surprised that palas are kyrian and druids/Hunters night fae?

How likely is it for some one Who mains druid to not want to be night fae? If on the other hand all druids were venthyr due to performance your arguement would be bulletproof

And what Blizzard's great balancing achieved in regards of getting a proper thematic fit for various specs are Kyrian Blood Death Knights and fairy Warlocks (and Necrolord Restro Druids in PvP).

[Kaver]

Precisely. Is NF my best choice from a min-max perspective as a balance druid? Yes. Is it also the most obvious choice thematically? Also yes. Same for Pallies and Kyrian, etc.

This might shock the OP and others, but Blizzard seems to have worked to make the obvious thematic choice for a class also very good choices for character power for those same classes.

That's absolute bullshit.

Night Fae is best covenant for most specs and Night Fae only really fits Druid and Hunter thematically. Don't even try to say that Night Fae fits Rogues and Warlocks.

Venthyr is the least played covenant overall despite it being the most popular covenant thematically.

[Tarba]

All Shadowlands proves is that the majority of players will choose the path of least resistance in order to obtain group invites or complete whatever content they enjoy.

Or maybe choosing a random new faction completely disconnected from the whole precedent lore, filled with new stupid characters in an uninteresting gated retarded story that matters only in the first patch for a long farm transmo you'll probably never use is not worth using a clunky underperforming talent in every fight.