Why is Sire so hard even for "AOTC" groups?

[Araya]

Sire has a lot of little things that can very quickly cause a pull to spiral out of control, it also has a couple very hard dps checks. I also know it overwhelms a lot of lower skilled players.

[erifwodahs]

HC raiding guilds nah, cause for them heroic is their progression, so you gotta give people time to learn, but on pugs since this is what the thread was about mainly, most of them are "aotc group blablabla" and there is close to 0 tolerance on them since its not a progression group, its an aotc group aka come kill the boss xd so if people keep instakicking on big mistakes on those groups im not surprised.

I find that AotC groups don't really kick after wipes, ppl just leave a wipe happens in p1/p2. Obviously unless someone is running around and crossing lines over ppl, yeah, such mistake is a boot, but I can't remember any AotC player doing that in curved grp. Plenty in "progress, have patience grps" but those groups are honest at least.

[Frozenbro]

I find that AotC groups don't really kick after wipes, ppl just leave a wipe happens in p1/p2. Obviously unless someone is running around and crossing lines over ppl, yeah, such mistake is a boot, but I can't remember any AotC player doing that in curved grp. Plenty in "progress, have patience grps" but those groups are honest at least.

Ye agree, hence why i gave some examples of what mistakes are kick worthy, you arent keeping in your group a guy that blows the raid up with a glaive on SLG, or a guy that leaves fatal finesse dot on all the raid in p3 denathrius, stuff like that, but yeah some people think you gotta have infinite patience xd.

[Xath]

Because this boss is hard and overtuned. I'm playing in a guild where almost everyone has 220 ilvl and we have 4 mythic progress. We're stomping over our mythic farm bosses. Yet Sire often causes plenty of wipes until everything aligns perfectly.

To have a consistent pug kills, you need to get people, who are:

1. Know tactics (achievement + multiple kills).
2. Have gear (220+).
3. Know how to utilize that gear (logs).

Even with this setup you're likely to experience few wipes. Also I suggest you to remove those who fail even once, you can't afford to carry on this boss, not with PuG anyway.

Another issue on this boss is that you need to adjust your tactics with high gear, for example your phase 1 will be faster. Many PuG raid leaders are not flexible enough for this.

It's absolutely not overtuned rofl. It's not hard a fight tactically it just requires people to not stand in bad and to soak when called. You can easily pug it with a full group around 210 if they aren't braindead.

- - - Updated - - -

Jeeze, raiding sounds dreadful. Why would you willingly subject yourself to something like this?
I play video games to have fun, not to experience a "job interview" again.

Because beating content that just doesn't just fall over is fun and so is competing to beat other good players of your class.

[Frozen Death Knight]

Heroic Denathrius isn't really that hard when compared to Council, Stone Legion, or Lady while people were still progressing on that difficulty. That said, Denathrius has a couple of mechanics that are not pug friendly without some solid leadership leading the way.

1st phase is incredibly easy if people understand how to soak the cone and manage their stacks, the tanks know how to position, and the dpsers don't outdps the phase so everyone loses their stacks before the transition, something that can be hard in a pug situation without clear communication. 2nd phase is all about jumping between mirrors with timing and having the dps to deal with the adds around the room while dodging stuff that can sometimes overlap with each other as well as by the boss pulling the entire raid toward him. 3rd phase is often where things fall apart because you have to place soaks in a specific pattern and be done on time or the raid just wipes. The final phase is also a dps check, so if enough people are slacking or enough people screwed up in the other phases this can make the difference between a kill or a loss.

In the end, most of the fight can be carried if the tanks, healers, and a big enough portion of the dpsers don't mess up, especially if they are well geared, but there are still a bunch of mechanics that require your entire raid to take responsibility. That mixed in with the unreliability of randoms and you will see people wipe to a boss that is honestly not even in the top 3 of the hardest bosses on Heroic.

[DutchOutcastbas]

I'd say the boss is really quite difficult. Our guild is at a point where we use the skip, one-shot sludgefist and generals, and we have been stuck at Denathrius for 3 weeks (100+ wipes already). Even while the average ilvl for our group is around 215. For someone who has gotten AOTC in previous tiers, and with a guild who has gotten AOTC in previous tiers as well, I'd say it is quite a difficult boss. It's probably, as most of you said before, because of the fact that there are a lot of personal mechanics instead of raid-wide mechanics that can be covered up by the better players.

Edit: so we have had 2 hours on him post-nerf yesterday night, and we could phase p1 quicker. Also, we were now able to get to p3 before the third set of adds. However we are still struggling.

Or maybe we're just bad lol

[erifwodahs]

Edit: so we have had 2 hours on him post-nerf yesterday night, and we could phase p1 quicker. Also, we were now able to get to p3 before the third set of adds. However we are still struggling.

P3 is all about tanking. People only need to react to mechanics. Tanks have to pre-plan so raid is in good position to react to overlap.

[Frozenbro]

Edit: so we have had 2 hours on him post-nerf yesterday night, and we could phase p1 quicker. Also, we were now able to get to p3 before the third set of adds. However we are still struggling.

Or maybe we're just bad lol

Max goes over this fight in detail so maybe this helps your guild https://youtu.be/y5goOR08u8A

[Osmeric]

Yeah no its not the raiding that is the problem its the players not being able to work together and this is in general for any online game. There are groups that can but in total its very chaotic. So no just abandoning raiding is stupid.

"Our product is fine, it's the customers who are defective" is NEVER a valid argument.

[T-34]

Ah you again. So you're ok with kicking people after one mistake huh. And I assume you'll make an argument why it's not toxic.

AND still putting words in my mouth. Never said pugs need to have infinite patience for failure. Merely that kicking after one mistake is objectively toxic.

You are most welcome to make an inclusive raid where you invite people based on your criteria and wipe for hours upon end. If that makes you happy then I am happy.
If someone makes a raid where it is clearly stated that all know the fight and someone doesn't then it is perfectly normal and rational to kick those that don't know what they were supposed to know:
1. That person is a dead weight
2. If dead weight doesn't get kicked then the competent players in the group will leave

It is a well known fact that it is those players that waste other people's time that are the objectively toxic players in WoW. Nothing is more toxic than wasting other people's time.

[Aphrel]

You are most welcome to make an inclusive raid where you invite people based on your criteria and wipe for hours upon end. If that makes you happy then I am happy.
If someone makes a raid where it is clearly stated that all know the fight and someone doesn't then it is perfectly normal and rational to kick those that don't know what they were supposed to know:
1. That person is a dead weight
2. If dead weight doesn't get kicked then the competent players in the group will leave

It is a well known fact that it is those players that waste other people's time that are the objectively toxic players in WoW. Nothing is more toxic than wasting other people's time.

Max accidently rolled of the platform in p3 and died when he pugged heroic Denathrius. He nearly caused a wipe from that mistake as he had the debuff that place a soak circle on the ground on him when he rolled off.
So by your criteria, Max, the raidleader of the best wowguild in the world is dead weight, apparently a toxic person for waisting other ppls time, and doesnt belong in a heroic denathrious pug.

Meanwhile the rest of the world realize that humans arent perfect and mistakes happen, althou alot less frequently if the player is good at what hes doing. In most pugs ive been in ppl have at least a 2nd chance, because everyone can fuck up once and fail. But if your worth your salt, your fails will be few and enough far between that you don't fuck up twice in a single raid.

[T-34]

Max accidently rolled of the platform in p3 and died when he pugged heroic Denathrius. He nearly caused a wipe from that mistake as he had the debuff that place a soak circle on the ground on him when he rolled off.
So by your criteria, Max, the raidleader of the best wowguild in the world is dead weight, apparently a toxic person for waisting other ppls time, and doesnt belong in a heroic denathrious pug.

Meanwhile the rest of the world realize that humans arent perfect and mistakes happen, althou alot less frequently if the player is good at what hes doing. In most pugs ive been in ppl have at least a 2nd chance, because everyone can fuck up once and fail. But if your worth your salt, your fails will be few and enough far between that you don't fuck up twice in a single raid.

That is for the RL to decide. My experience with pugs that require expertise with the content tell me that if a RL isn't pro-active with kicking dead-weight then then the good players will leave.

Whether Max deserved a kick or not, I don't know, but I am quite sure that he wouldn't whine and cry and call the RL toxic if he was kicked.

[h8ryan]

Your pug is having trouble with Sire because the majority of you aren't good at the fight and the RL isn't handholding you through the entire experience well enough.

The fight gets harder with gear because the timers change, maybe you need to adjust who is getting marks removed in P1 multiple times because you have incredible dps

Maybe you can push P3 before the third set of adds in your pug, maybe you can't, if you can't it's because your pug is full of alts that have low gear

P3 is the easiest part, once you're there it's just tanking him in the right spot and dropping your soaks in the right spots

[Progenitor Aquarius]

Because of high movement, which causes problems to some players. It’s not an easy fight.

[anon5123]

P3 is the easiest part

And yet, every single "AOTC only" pug wipes endlessly in phase 3.

[Hinastorm]

no

he is the symptom of desease that is making wow rot or years now.

this is the toxic elitism blizzard and SL is catering to.

people like him are the reason why wow has now officialy less subs them FF14

this happens when devs do not care to deal with toxicity in their game allowing toxic stuff like dps meters , addons , raider.io run wild in game making experience of casual people horrible.

I agree with your overall sentiment, but I don't think putting the dps meter genie back into the bottle makes any sense at this point.

[anon5123]

allowing toxic stuff like dps meters , addons

So WoW has been """toxic""" since it released, then?

lol

[Progenitor Aquarius]

I hate seeing myself on damage meter on add burst in first phase on that boss, it crushes my self esteem. Once I got so pissed off that I just left the group. Being removed from group is one thing, but to kick myself for low performance is probably madness. I killed this boss twice in a pug. It would seem I am getting better at it. Then he drops gold, twice!

[agentsi]

Because this boss is hard and overtuned. I'm playing in a guild where almost everyone has 220 ilvl and we have 4 mythic progress. We're stomping over our mythic farm bosses. Yet Sire often causes plenty of wipes until everything aligns perfectly.

To have a consistent pug kills, you need to get people, who are:

1. Know tactics (achievement + multiple kills).
2. Have gear (220+).
3. Know how to utilize that gear (logs).

Even with this setup you're likely to experience few wipes. Also I suggest you to remove those who fail even once, you can't afford to carry on this boss, not with PuG anyway.

Another issue on this boss is that you need to adjust your tactics with high gear, for example your phase 1 will be faster. Many PuG raid leaders are not flexible enough for this.

Sorry, a boss isn't "overtuned" if it was killed by guilds with an average ilvl of 207 on Mythic without nerfs, while folks are ilvl 220+ and still wiping on Heroic after multiple nerfs.

This is called a complete lack of skill, and there really isn't any other way to say it.

The fight is hard, it's as simple as that. There are a lot of mechanics that require you to not make mistakes. Typically most WoW fights are very forgiving in terms of mechanics and mistakes. Progressing Savage in FFXIV, one wrong mechanic during a 15 min fight, by anyone, meant a total wipe for the entire group most of the time. This is not the case in WoW, as folks can make multiple mistakes, and still survive because others carry them.

So many folks are carried without ever even realizing it most of the time. If you can maintain a blue to purple parse, in a pug, without messing up ANY mechanics, at all, then you aren't the problem.

[Sithalos]

Sire is actually pretty easy. The whole fight is mostly scripted and very predictable.

/Shrug