Why is Sire so hard even for "AOTC" groups?

[FiveDkp]

So WoW has been """toxic""" since it released, then?

lol

I highly recommend to not interact with this individual. He went to saying 9% nerf will do nothing and that people are bad (like full on toxic mentality) then turns around and says meters, addons are toxic.

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Sorry, a boss isn't "overtuned" if it was killed by guilds with an average ilvl of 207 on Mythic without nerfs, while folks are ilvl 220+ and still wiping on Heroic after multiple nerfs.

This is called a complete lack of skill, and there really isn't any other way to say it.

The fight is hard, it's as simple as that. There are a lot of mechanics that require you to not make mistakes. Typically most WoW fights are very forgiving in terms of mechanics and mistakes. Progressing Savage in FFXIV, one wrong mechanic during a 15 min fight, by anyone, meant a total wipe for the entire group most of the time. This is not the case in WoW, as folks can make multiple mistakes, and still survive because others carry them.

So many folks are carried without ever even realizing it most of the time. If you can maintain a blue to purple parse, in a pug, without messing up ANY mechanics, at all, then you aren't the problem.

Agreed - the issue I felt with Sire was the the skill ceiling required to kill heroic was a bit too high compared to the rest of the raid and the first few mythic bosses. At the moment, they may have overnerfed it - it was quite easy last night. Took 4 attempts - few wipes due to early push, people dying in p1-2 who never done it but overall was a lot easier (also, we transitioned with 3 adds dead - one add on 30% so that 9% nerf REALLY matters)

[Shaetha]

I do not waste anyone's time. I don't raid, because I'm expected to "put in work". Let me tell you something. I put in work when I'm at work.

If you can't make that commitment, fine. Other people want to do it. You should just stay in your lane.

[Eazy]

HC Sire isn't that hard.

My frist kill was in the PUG group and we wiped about ~20 times or so? Which is really good knowing that we killed him on 16th January. It just required a slighty higher gear than average(back then) and knowledge what to do on that fight(which wasn't that much).

[dacoolist]

I usually love to raid, I spend a lot of time carrying and helping people..

This tier more than ever though: I legit didnt care one bit about the raid. My focus was KeyStoneMaster before it got nerfed into the abyss - all I do now is log in for the m14/15 for the weekly 226 chest.

The raids great: but the people that normally come in and make it happen like me/fellow pug lyfe mofos: we stopped this xpac

[Mouri Kogorou]

Sire is one of those bosses that require everyone to do his job until he has 0 hp, check logs and youtube and you will see loads of p3 wipes, sub 5% wipes.

you can not afford thinking "we did it" even if the boss have 1% hp.

[FiveDkp]

I usually love to raid, I spend a lot of time carrying and helping people..

This tier more than ever though: I legit didnt care one bit about the raid. My focus was KeyStoneMaster before it got nerfed into the abyss - all I do now is log in for the m14/15 for the weekly 226 chest.

The raids great: but the people that normally come in and make it happen like me/fellow pug lyfe mofos: we stopped this xpac

Eh, I still have a few come in to help out but yes, I understand your sentiment. That's what i've been told a lot - 90% of people who bring in alts/mains to help out - they always say do 4 m+s on main then go off for the week because there is no way to upgrade their gear after Mythic.

But people would rather their own reasons for why Subs have gone down in SL instead of the main reason I keep hearing - i've got all my BIS from M+ chests or log in to do weekly chests or go onto an alt and grind their gear.

[Laerrus]

i only buy AoTC boost when there is mount attached to it. without mount it has 0 value .

I try to convince myself that I am donating gold to help guild funding and I get a free mount out of it.

[T-34]

no

people like him are the reason why wow has now officialy less subs them FF14

this happens when devs do not care to deal with toxicity in their game allowing toxic stuff like dps meters , addons , raider.io run wild in game making experience of casual people horrible.

Could you please link me where you have found the number of subs that WoW and FF14 have?
And addons such as dps meters have been in WoW since Vanilla

And why do you keep posting about a game that if we follow your logic has been hell for casuals since its beginning?
I sure hope that you haven't played WoW since Vanilla.

[neescher]

I hate seeing myself on damage meter on add burst in first phase on that boss, it crushes my self esteem. Once I got so pissed off that I just left the group. Being removed from group is one thing, but to kick myself for low performance is probably madness. I killed this boss twice in a pug. It would seem I am getting better at it. Then he drops gold, twice!

The funny thing is that dps doesn't matter at all for this boss. I chuckle every time some PUG leader kicks people for doing "low" dps. While I've been pugging Denathrius for months, my guild just killed him for the first time last week, and our dps had almost all grey logs, with dps between 2.5k and 3.5k, which would be an instant kick for some PUGs.

This fight is about staying alive. If you have enough dps for phase 1, you have enough dps for phase 3.

[Aleksej89]

Its his voice.
That juicy voice is too distracting.

[Aradur]

Because most players are idiots that get carried by way better people. When all idiots come together because „Lol I have Aotc too, kek“ that’s what happens.

[VinceVega]

That is the reason i will never PuG raids again.

People get boosted but never really learn the fight. But they will get accepted into these AOTC-Pugs... because really how much can you look up before inviting people.
Then you have a bunch of people with an achivment and no idea what they have to do. Combined with quite heavy healer CD management in phase 1 and a very low tolerance for mistakes in phase two you get that.

But that is the PuG life. Either find a guild or if you cannot raid regular try to apply to the same group most of the time. Ask the leader if he will start a new pug next week and look if you can join again.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

The funny thing is that dps doesn't matter at all for this boss. I chuckle every time some PUG leader kicks people for doing "low" dps. While I've been pugging Denathrius for months, my guild just killed him for the first time last week, and our dps had almost all grey logs, with dps between 2.5k and 3.5k, which would be an instant kick for some PUGs.

This fight is about staying alive. If you have enough dps for phase 1, you have enough dps for phase 3.

I completely feel you. Though it’s extremely difficult for a frost mage. I found a way though of swapping legendary to have both time-warps at the end. It is almost guaranteed kill.

[Fandis]

Not played SL, but the hardest boss I've successfully pugged on Heroic was probably KJ back in early ToS.

How does Sire compare to that fight?

This was exactly the boss i was thinking Sire is comparable to in difficulty out of the heroic endbosses, everything else in recent expansions is imo easier (though WoD's Blackhand and Archi are probably not far behind). However while KJ was hard for all the wrong reasons (everything is going perfectly, but someone runs out of a soak 1 sec too early = raid wipes), Sire is actually a very well designed fight that's intentionally challenging .
I'd say progressing him on heroic with a semi-casual guild was some of the more fun raid experiences I had in recent years. Took us a pretty long time, as did the rekills. We've killed him like 8 times before we stopped doing it every week and have focused on mythic, and it has started being somewhat smooth (2-3 shots) only the last couple of kills. Kills 2 to 5 it was taking us between half to a nearly full raid night to kill him again, but it was still somehow fun.

[neescher]

well this is very true

you can put sh..t numbers all your have to do is dodge properly

problem is that this 9% nerf wont change anything because it wont make suddenly people be able to avoid stuff from death of cabalists and sword + stackign in p3 properly .

thats why this nerfs is pointless.

Just to reiterate - while I haven't pugged Denathrius this week, I killed him with 3 characters (heal, tank and dps), and the 9% nerf is very noticeable. From it being easier to skip 1-2 soaks in p1, to skipping a third set of adds in p2, to the chaotic part of p3 being shorter - it just matters a lot.

It won't fix people dying to massacre of course, but you can now afford 1-2 dead dps and you're still able to kill him in time.

[bloodykiller86]

Because he's significantly overtuned like the rest of Castle Nathria in an obvious attempt by Blizz to extend the paltry content they have,

overtuned? lol people just arent good at the game in general

[Sofo1]

Sire is overtuned or rather has mechanics that should not be a on a Heroic boss.

[Kaver]

Annnnd this is why pugs have become so toxic in wow. You're part of the problem.

Why is it toxic to remove players that fail when it's a AOTC group? I mean, if it was a progress group then I agree with you, but in an AOTC group you expect people to know how to do the boss.

[Hellobolis]

Sire is overtuned or rather has mechanics that should not be a on a Heroic boss.

the mechanics are fine for and endboss. it's just cause he drops higher ilvl gear/is tuned for higher ilvl that you can't outgear the fight as easily as you can earlier heroic bosses.

[Varaben]

Biggest issue with Shadowlands right here: design (both in m+ and raiding) is so mechanic and coordination centered that gear doesn't nerf it. I think people are mistaking it as an issue with the loot system, but it's actually an issue with encounter design.

This has been true for many expansions though. Encounters are extremely "dance" heavy as in the main difficulty is knowing the 10 million boss mechanics rather than knowing your class/spec (plus consumables and gear). This started being a problem as far back as Ulduar (and I guess Eye of Eternity also) when you had vehicles as part of the raid encounter. I don't think that was necessarily a huge deal in that particular scenario, but you can see the slippery slope. I remember in Cataclysm the first boss in BWD (the one on the right) on Heroic had so many freaking mechanics. I think it was like 3 or 4 different bosses that rotated in and out and each had like 3-4 mechanics.

That's been boss designs in wow for 10+ years man, and I think it's the main reason why I stopped liking raiding. I really wish they'd bring back more need for interrupts (this is a M+ skill now), crowd controls, etc. Like at the same time the other boss in BWD on the left side had adds that hunters or mages could take care of with slows/kiting while Melee fought the boss. That was a good boss design IMO. Then right next door needed a 5 page book report to know the mechanics. It's just WoW boomer talk because it's not going away unfortunately. It's the best way to make the bosses hard. Eventually every low mechanic boss gets nerfed by gear (look at the Classic scene with world buffs), but unforgiving mechanics can never be overcome by gear, so they're I guess "better" design?