TBC class viability and PVE

[BlueAnon]

well, I hope people will like the experience, myself I don't care, I'd rather play Wotlk classic.

[stevenho]

Pretty appalling list.

Crushing Blows will be in the game as it wasn't removed until 3.0 so Druid tanks will be non-existant. I believe Paladins once geared up properly could remove Crushing Blows even without Holy Shield using a Badge of Justice libram, so they're absolute top tier. The only reason you're bringing a Warrior is for Sunder Armor and nothing else.

Resto Shamans took the actual piss with Vampiric Touch and stacking Mana tide totems, spam Chain heal and never run out of mana rendering Priests and Druids useless. Paladins were great single target healers however.

Destruction Warlocks were hitting 1.5k dps in Spellfire crafted gear, a rotation of Curse of Doom and Shadow Bolt and that's it - It was even found that casting Corruption was a DPS loss factoring in the GCD. The literally only downside Warlocks had once 2 Warlock had to sacrifice their DPS to cast Curse of Elements instead of Doom for rest of the raid and another for Curse of Recklessness for the Rogue


The spec was always complimented by a Moonkin for the aura.

Combat Rogues were the other spec who could compete with the above and possibly do better but then they needed an Enhancement shaman who knew how to Totem juggle - Windfury totem has 3 second buff duration so during that duration the Shaman uses Grace of Air totem until the 3 seconds expires then use WF totem, rinse and repeat. They also needed a Survival Hunter for Expose Weakness - And the Hunter needed to be decently geared for it as EW scaled with the Hunter's gear rather than a flat amount.

Everyone else didn't serve much purpose other than your generic buffs because they weren't going to outheal a Shaman or outdps a Warlock or a Rogue.

Is this a serious post? Can't tell
So much misinformation in it.

[Bigbazz]

Is this a serious post? Can't tell
So much misinformation in it.

People by and large have zero clue about anything. Imagine thinking that Druid tanks were not viable in TBC or that a Paladin is a superior boss tank to either Warrior/Druid, or that Rogue can't be outdps'd by other specs (I mean hell prior to T5 Rogue is almost disabled). Every opinion on TBC is either based on hilariously over the top focus on the "meta" (as if comparing non hunters/lock dps in TBC with taking Rets in Vanilla is remotely the same thing) or half truths and time-warped facts based on vague memories.

The best part are the guys who were barely out of nappies young children when TBC was current, but think they are experts because they heard asmongold say something once, and then played a bad private server for a month. Imagine thinking that Paladin tanks are superior boss tanks to Warriors/Druid, like what world are we living in. Save for bosses where block is required (like Illidan's Shear) Paladin is the weakest boss tank, taken for AOE duties and blessings.

[Sofo1]

Your video is on point and fury will be as good as it shows.
Like I mentioned before the problem will be spots - most guilds will probably take one at the start. I do expect the comps to evolve though and see some wild stuff like triple fury with just 1 surv hunter

P.S. I liked the part about standing in stuff as fury, it will be a big thing on an unbuffed TBC classic. Perhaps not in fires on Mag though, because they will disorient, but cave-ins on Gruul or boiling water on Lurker will definitely be used for rage generation.

are we talking world first guilds or a standard run of the mill guild?

[Bigbazz]

are we talking world first guilds or a standard run of the mill guild?

I'd guess he's talking about wild stuff like triple Fury being at least a possibility because speed clears are popular and Fury cleave dps is broken and isn't cooldown bound or reliant on mana management. On speed clears you're talking about overgeared trash clearing where cleaving can be utilised heavily. To use SSC for example you could also run 3 Fury and rotate bloodlusts + have recklessness held for Fathom Lord and literally cleave tank the whole lot and melt it in seconds in a way that would only work if you have sufficient cleave to skip the intended tactic (which is slow as hell compared).

That said though, you are limited with how much melee you can take to an extent because you need to balance out your comp, you need 22-23 raid spots to cover everything with a good balance, if you take 3 Fury Warriors you're struggling on raid spots with which to buff them without compromising the other dps (and Fury relies on buffs from other classes to perform, due to its rage scaling nature), so it's gonna be a difficult push.

Right now some people think you won't take any melee because it's "melee unfriendly" when really it's probably more melee friendly than Castle Nathria, it's only "melee unfriendly" if you're thinking of it by comparison with Classic Vanilla.

Just to give you an example of what I mean - This is the standard wide spread split strategy of killing Fathom Lord, mostly single target and lots of movement so melee unfriendly.



The better strat for progression is a mini-cleave strat where you still split some of it but you always have 1 cleave target on the boss, you have assigned interrupts away from raid but the melee who are assigned to dps can perform very well, minimal movement.



And this is when you use the full cleave strat (still in current content gear, but better than first pic), minimal movement, very melee friendly.




Now you do that at speed clear gear levels and run 2 Warriors you can double those numbers. Now as for on progression, you can run a hybrid of the old wide split strat and the cleave strat to get a bit of best of both worlds (2nd photo).

[Heathy]

I feel like fathom lord wasn't great for melee simply because they kept totem stomping so you basically don't move at all and have melee switch to the totems, hes got to be the easiest boss in SSC where his windfury totem can make him one shot the tank but, basically the boss is like jin'do so when melee are totem > boss > totem >boss they lose some dps. while ranged are probably too slow to kill totems anyway, so you need melee even if they aren't exactly parsing there.

[Bigbazz]

I feel like fathom lord wasn't great for melee simply because they kept totem stomping so you basically don't move at all and have melee switch to the totems, hes got to be the easiest boss in SSC where his windfury totem can make him one shot the tank but, basically the boss is like jin'do so when melee are totem > boss > totem >boss they lose some dps. while ranged are probably too slow to kill totems anyway, so you need melee even if they aren't exactly parsing there.

I mean the totem is the easiest part, we'd usually have the enhance just stormstrike it and instagib it, warriors can also easily switch and with that the rest shouldn't have to. The fight sucked for melee due to the strategy a lot of guilds used, but with some adjustments you can turn it into a great melee fight (albiet you still need some people doing bitch duty), and then if your dps/healers are good enough you can use the full cleave strategy, which is bonkers good for Warriors, and pretty nice for Rogues (blade flurry) too.

That's what I'm demonstrating above really, first pic is the old strategy a lot of guilds used to kill it first time, second pic is an adjusted progression strategy to allow some cleave and make melee lives easier, and the 3rd is a full cleave burst strategy. Melee do super well if used properly as its a 6200 armor boss.

[stevenho]

That said though, you are limited with how much melee you can take to an extent because you need to balance out your comp, you need 22-23 raid spots to cover everything with a good balance, if you take 3 Fury Warriors you're struggling on raid spots with which to buff them without compromising the other dps (and Fury relies on buffs from other classes to perform, due to its rage scaling nature), so it's gonna be a difficult push.

That's why I mentioned the single surv - I'm suspecting hunters might get shafted in speedruns.
But yeah, this is the high end of the spectrum, for most "normal" guilds stuff will still die and it will die easily, so minmaxing comp is probably less of a concern than keeping a roster of attuned people willing to log on.

Tank meta will be interesting in speedruns too. If palas can survive bosses with a single tank healer then I have a hard time imagining warrs getting a spot in the entire TBC over them and ferals.

[Electric Lighter]

That's why I mentioned the single surv - I'm suspecting hunters might get shafted in speedruns.
But yeah, this is the high end of the spectrum, for most "normal" guilds stuff will still die and it will die easily, so minmaxing comp is probably less of a concern than keeping a roster of attuned people willing to log on.

Tank meta will be interesting in speedruns too. If palas can survive bosses with a single tank healer then I have a hard time imagining warrs getting a spot in the entire TBC over them and ferals.

I vaguely recall rogues being utter monsters in arena until they nerfed then and even then they were considered one of the strongest classes... pve wise I recall mages being useless in sunwell and hunters and locks excelling... i think its all rather fuzy.

[Millyraynge]

A few observations resulting from a lot of experience with retail, classic, and the unspeakable.
I hope I can help people decide what to play and how to play in the coming expansion.


PVE will be easy. In my opinion - easier than non wordbuffed Naxxramas (excluding Sunwell). There will be outliers like entering Hellfire Citadel heroics on your blue/green geared tank and getting pummeled into the ground by muscular orcs, but those will only last a few weeks max, then you will have farmed/cafted your gear and become familiar with what to pull and how.

It will be possible to clear all content with multiple suboptimal specs like shadow priests, but most guild will continue to metaslave and will try to produce "optimal" comps. This means some popular classes will struggle for raidspots (sup fury warrs).

"Pre nerf content" - one of the selling points of how TBC is going to be "harder" - don't believe it, it won't matter. First of all - only a handful of bosses were meaningfully changed and even then it was rather a different version of mechanics (like Solarian pre-nerf bouncing debuff or Mother Shaz prismatic auras) than a big difference in difficulty. Asmongold just made a video talking about big scary mind control on Vashj tank. Guess what - just bring an offtank to taunt the boss Or bring five, because the DPS check will be irrelevant.

The only thing that will really matter are 360 degree (chain) cleaves that were a thing before 2.1. They are deadly to melee and require knowledge of the mobs. Sometimes melee just don't go in on packs at all due to those. Unless they are fury in plate




Spec rating - in order of best to worst (generalized, can't really compare tank healer to a raid healer).

Tanks:
1. Paladin - there will be at least one in every raid, and if bosses hit for what they did in retail TBC, they might be able to maintank everything up to Sunwell with good healers and/or externals. As a bonus they can solo farm places like Strat/Scholo for 200-300g/hr (or more - depending on the realmeconomy). Best 5man tanks by MILES.
2. Warrior - awesome single target just like in classic, but severly limited in AOE tanking. High skillcap unlike "drop conc" paladin (a meme... or is it?)
3. Druid - quite decent with 2.1 itemization, threat machine for Sunwell bosses, most likely will be required by many guilds at that point.

DPS:
1. Warlocks - very good single target, awesome AOE, but no cooldowns. The faster bosses die, the worse locks are. They will be present in speedrun meta, and also in more casual guilds. Don't worry about there being a lot of them - it will be easy to find guild spots.
2. Hunters - awesome single target, crappy AOE, great cooldowns. They will not be in speedrun meta, but standard guilds are very likely to have a "hunter group" (at least a feral, maybe even enha too). Many spots, easy to get into guilds. Considerably higher skill ceiling than Warlock due to pet control and punishing pet mechanics. The best dps class in Sunwell.
3. Mages - mediocre as frost or fire in T4, extremely good as Arcane in T5 with proper gear. Spots limited dur to requiring innervates to perform best. Better aoe than locks and whats extremely important - a LOT less threat generated. Fade off hard in T6 and beyond.
4. Warriors/Ret Paladins/Rogues - with proper group/debuff setup fury can be very competitive with 2.1 itemization and BIS on cleave fights. Problem is there will usually be 1 spot for them in a normal guild. Arms warr will likely be brought for debuff, just like one ret pala. One rogue spot might or might not get filled to gear a guy for Sunwell progression. No reason to bring more, they will struggle before T6 gear.
5. Boomkins - 1 spot in warlock group. Highest DPS on most fights among hybrid casters if played well.
6. Ele Shammies - 1 spot in warlock group.
7. Enchancement Shammies - might bring one to buff melee group, not guaranteed. Brings lust, thats a big plus.
8. Shadow Priests - 1 spot in healer group if guild struggles on mana for some reason and to buff warlocks. Unlikely to be really needed due to fights being short and healer mana not being relevant unless it comes down to dropping to smth like 2-3 healer comps. 1 spot max, crap dps.


Healers:
1. Shaman - you bring lust and that makes you BIS. Multiple spots
2. Resto Druid - best raidhealer. One spot.
3. Priest - one spot.
4. Pala - tank healer, one spot. Might have to compete with shaman, depending on how the guild values blessing vs additional lust. High output will not be needed in the unbuffed content state.


There are big differences in pre-bis gearing of some classes, for example Warlocks are going to be very expensive while hunters are pretty cheap. Farming primals will be an absolute cancer on populated realms even with layering. Think Ungoro mafia but almost everywhere.

Feel free to ask more specific questions.

This does not resonate very well with my memories. If I remeber correctly rogues were almost best dps on practically any boss. DST had no internal CD for very long time (way after top guilds cleared T6 already) and the windfury nerf occured somewhat before T6/kael'thas nerf. The introduction of expertise rating was also very strong for melees. You could easily run 2 full melee groups, warriors and enhancers were mostly capped by aggro.

If TBCC is using the 2.4.3 build from the very beginning, then I have to agree that melees are not as powerful at the very beginnig.

[stevenho]

This does not resonate very well with my memories.

2.4.3 patch mechanics/talents + 12 years of player development changed a lot. You will see soon.

[Bigbazz]

Just saw this interesting discussion on the topic, I'm not clued in on the Classic Vanilla community but apparently these guys are raiding in the top guilds (progress etc?) and they are discussing their thoughts going into TBC.



Anyway, guy here is planning to run a full physical comp for TBC with the intention of speedrunning, including running 5 Fury Warriors and an Arms Warrior based on their ability to dps on the move and partly banking on the lower HP pools of the original TBC bosses compared to the massively buffed private server bosses that favour Warlock stacks.

I mean this is taking it a step further than my plan of running 2-3 dps Warriors (with the 3rd spot shared with a Rogue) in my raid for TBC. I guess I'm not speed running so either way the cookie crumbles I'm building balance to make loot distribution less of a headache, but these guys are talking literally the opposite of the "hunters/locks or go home" private server outlook.

[Algorath]

Ret is a little better in tbc still a meme but you human male paladins have to wait for wotlk to really shine sorry

I raided as ret back in the day, as long as I had WF, I was doing decent dps, plus I kept wisdom, light and crusader(3% crit) on target, which is a huge dps increase for the raid.

[Bigbazz]

I raided as ret back in the day, as long as I had WF, I was doing decent dps, plus I kept wisdom, light and crusader(3% crit) on target, which is a huge dps increase for the raid.

Yeah ret is a long way from a meme, I think it was patch 2.3 they got massive buffs and started being able to do competitive dps (on horde in particular)

+ 1 blessing
3% physical crit for entire raid
2% damage for party
mana regen for entire raid.

Rets kinda need to do annoying stuff like farming mana runes, but damn right they are competitive in the hands of dedicated skilled players and they bring enough to justify 1 in every 25man raid, easy.

[deenman]

Actually there has been studies that show that people are getting dumber so chances are that on average players were better 14 years ago.

thats over multiple generations not 14 years lol,its like the people who think evolution means one day a dog made a cat LOL

also being dumb or smart isnt the issue,its the acces to info that makes things easier

and i can for sure tell you players have been getting much better,just look at how steadily the raid difficulty has increased over the years,blizzard knows people have been smashing the content easier and easier so they accounted for it over the years

[razorpax]

Holy pally is more than just a tank healer

[Chloe the Maid]

Asmongold just made a video talking about big scary mind control on Vashj tank.

Closed the thread here.

[Uoyredrum]

Closed the thread here.

Thanks for letting us know?

[Nitros14]

The Solarian change is a big change in difficulty.

Solarian actually had 4 versions.

The unkillable first version, the second version that took top guilds a long time (Solarian was available for 50+ days before being killed), the third version where arcane resistance was unusually effective and people used arcane resist soaks and the fourth version which is literally Baron Geddon and pathetically easy.

[RobertMugabe]

Guilds that are capable of clearing AQ40 or even BWL (before AQ release) are well capable of doing all TBC raids tbh.

TBC raids are gonna feel a lot closer to retail, however most bosses still don't have that many mechanics and you don't really need to have some significant reaction time. I think that only TK and SWL will feel like a real challenge.