It is a bad time to be a buyer and new real estate agent right now.

[Witchblade77]

umm taxes on gain don't exist in your world?

Also if you are renting, you can put the other 998,500 into a stock that can also rise 20% tomorrow....


unless you are talking about financing then there is way more cost then the 'extra taxes'.

Also when you rent, you don't pay taxes. Its included in the rent. the owner pays the taxes with the rent you pay.


Mortgage is generally cheaper till you add in property tax, higher utility cost, maintenance/repair/upkeep, insurance, interest, fees, etc etc.

The extra money saved between owning a house and renting can be invested and you can end up with the same asset amount left over.

I crunched some numbers ^^^^ up there a few post back

- - - Updated - - -



Depends on a lot of financial considerations.

renting + investing the difference = bigger asset return at the end of 30 years.

did you crunch the numbers for housing that is exactly the same amount of space when it comes to renting vs buying (because for me to rent the house of the same size as what we have with the same amount of land would cost a heck of a lot more then what my mortgage and tax and insurance cost me)? did you consider what happens after mortgage is paid off but you still need to keep paying rent (or are you assuming that you are just going to die by then?) did you consider the actual chances of you being able to continue to find places to rent at your same price? because unless you are lucky enough to be in a rent controlled place, those chances are very low. you are either paying more, or sacrificing space. did you account for costs of moving from apartment to apartment?

just wondering

because while home ownership is NOT right for everyone, circumstances and needs differ, all things being equal - consider for a moment WHY landlords become landlords? they are not just passing the costs to you via rent, but they are doing it for profit. one way or another, you ARE paying more. now if convenience and flexibility is worth it for you? fair. but you ARE paying more for it.

[Zan15]

did you crunch the numbers for housing that is exactly the same amount of space when it comes to renting vs buying (because for me to rent the house of the same size as what we have with the same amount of land would cost a heck of a lot more then what my mortgage and tax and insurance cost me)? did you consider what happens after mortgage is paid off but you still need to keep paying rent (or are you assuming that you are just going to die by then?) did you consider the actual chances of you being able to continue to find places to rent at your same price? because unless you are lucky enough to be in a rent controlled place, those chances are very low. you are either paying more, or sacrificing space. did you account for costs of moving from apartment to apartment?

just wondering

because while home ownership is NOT right for everyone, circumstances and needs differ, all things being equal - consider for a moment WHY landlords become landlords? they are not just passing the costs to you via rent, but they are doing it for profit. one way or another, you ARE paying more. now if convenience and flexibility is worth it for you? fair. but you ARE paying more for it.

- Yah was going off my actual house if i kept it and the current apt i live in which is about the same size minus one bedroom and the land. I am in one of the more expensive rental and housing markets/counties in the country.

- at the end of 30 year mortgage i gave you the current position the very rough math would put you in. Now i would also add that the upkeep on your house after 30 years and required care and upgrades will increase substantially to maintain the level of growth needed to keep up with rental + investing the difference.

- You talk about increased cost of rentals, but its about on par with the increase in property tax, insurance, extra utilities. Those are the main reasons why rent goes up so its logical that the increases go lock step with each other.

- Moving? LOL 39.99 for a rental truck and some friends, beer and pizza.

as for everything else, go read the post because its kinda all in there.

at the end of 30 years you either own a home or have a huge nest egg in investments.
the size of both is very dependent on a lot of factors that i will agree

[The Oblivion]

depends where you live. my homes have gained FAR more then any investment would year over year. however that is not the case for every area.

- - - Updated - - -

garbage math.

your home and area had horrible gains. my home from 2013 at 220k is now selling for 450k. dont forget many rentals require rental insurance, and the tax write offs you get from each home you own from the 1098 form. ive never bought a single home (at 11 now) that has gained less than 10% year over year since 2013 when i started. most are gaining FAR above that in california actually.

it is almost ALWAYS better to buy vs rent if you can. every single investment professional, and most novices would be able to tell you this.

[Zan15]

depends where you live. my homes have gained FAR more then any investment would year over year. however that is not the case for every area.

your home and area had horrible gains. my home from 2013 at 220k is now selling for 450k. dont forget many rentals require rental insurance, and the tax write offs you get from each home you own from the 1098 form. ive never bought a single home (at 11 now) that has gained less than 10% year over year since 2013 when i started. most are gaining FAR above that in california actually.

it is almost ALWAYS better to buy vs rent if you can. every single investment professional, and most novices would be able to tell you this.

Garbage math.....sure if i lived somewhere else.....had a different house...brought at a different time.....found jesus.....forced to get rental insurance which shockingly after renting for 8 going on 9 years I've never been forced to pay the whopping 12 dollars (yes I get it voluntarily, cause of my valuables.)....had better tax write offs (sorry thanks to my business i hardly pay much in taxes each year anyway to take advantage of interest deduction and homeowner writeoffs).....etc etc etc

Most people do not live in 100% gain area's, so congrats.

$238,844 ---Track This Estimate $69K since sold in Nov 2001. 18 years 171>239.


good thing the average return on the sp 500 over the last 30 years ending 2020 was 10.7%
of course just like being lucky to be in a 100% gain area you could also have invested in the Nasdaq in 2013....hell or even one of the top dozen tech stocks by market value and easily taken the money saved on rental and turned it over a couple dozen times.

My average 401k investment return over the same period was 17.5%.

depends where you live. my homes have gained FAR more then any investment would year over year. however that is not the case for every area.

.

Sorry but i know of many many STANDARD investments that would have gained more since 2013.

If you invested $220,000 in the S&P 500 at the beginning of 2013, you would have about $658,823.30 at the beginning of 2021, assuming you reinvested all dividends. This is a return on investment of 199.47%, or 14.69% per year.

Nasdaq you'd probably be up double that.

Any of the top 10 most valuable companies, Probably even more.


Bitcoin... lol, no i won't even.....

[The Oblivion]

Garbage math.....sure if i lived somewhere else.....had a different house...brought at a different time.....found jesus.....forced to get rental insurance which shockingly after renting for 8 going on 9 years I've never been forced to pay the whopping 12 dollars (yes I get it voluntarily, cause of my valuables.)....had better tax write offs (sorry thanks to my business i hardly pay much in taxes each year anyway to take advantage of interest deduction and homeowner writeoffs).....etc etc etc

Most people do not live in 100% gain area's, so congrats.

$238,844 ---Track This Estimate $69K since sold in Nov 2001. 18 years 171>239.


good thing the average return on the sp 500 over the last 30 years ending 2020 was 10.7%
of course just like being lucky to be in a 100% gain area you could also have invested in the Nasdaq in 2013....hell or even one of the top dozen tech stocks by market value and easily taken the money saved on rental and turned it over a couple dozen times.

My average 401k investment return over the same period was 17.5%.



Sorry but i know of many many STANDARD investments that would have gained more since 2013.

If you invested $220,000 in the S&P 500 at the beginning of 2013, you would have about $658,823.30 at the beginning of 2021, assuming you reinvested all dividends. This is a return on investment of 199.47%, or 14.69% per year.

Nasdaq you'd probably be up double that.

Any of the top 10 most valuable companies, Probably even more.


Bitcoin... lol, no i won't even.....

your problem is you are very bad at math.

example:
Person A can afford 2k/month for their home be rent or mortgage.

Option 1: Buy a 400k home, put down 3.5%, (14k) and have a payment of 2000 PITI
Option 2: Rent a 360k home, rent is 2000 month

Cost per month for both = 2k

What is the better option? Its A, in all scenarios.

For my own example, the home i bought in 2013 and put 3.5% down on, costing me about 8k out of pocket with my monthly payment being the same as it was before i bought.

With that 8k out of pocket, breaking even on my monthly payments vs renting, that 8k made me a profit of 230k in 7 years.
This is without adding the fact that i owe less then the 212k i started off owing and the substantial tax breaks i received for 7 years.

8k to 230k in 7 years just buy living the same way i was when renting.

now lets take your childish scenario of 220k into S&P, 220k/8k = 27.5. SO i could purchase 27 of those similar homes, 27*230,000= 6,210,000 in just equity gains, assuming id also rent those houses out for only $100 profit or $2700 month total, 2700*12=32400. 32400*7(years) = 226800.

I would have gained 6.2 million in equity, and another 225k in profits on renting at JUST $100 over cost a month (in reality, rent in this area would be 5-600 in profit typically).

There is nearly no scenario where renting is better than buying. No investment historically has kept up with real estate gains.

[cubby]

Wish we'd have that problem.

Low home inventory and a gluttony of real estate agents?

- - - Updated - - -

Is there any actual benefit in buying a home?

There can be several, but it depends on a number of factors and your financial goals.

[Jotaux]

hmm my 171,000 house would have resulted in me paying

Mortgage + Interest = 389,100

Property tax 4500 x 30 = 135,000 (assumption of tax/assessment increase of 1% a year)

Insurance 720 x 30 = 21,600


Total So far = 545,700 / 30 = 1515.00 per month
Of course i could have refinanced at this point a bunch % lower.


Then there is the upkeep on the property and repair cost.

Impossible to estimate but i know we had to replace the pool liner, the fence around 1.5 acers after most if it rotted after 11 years, the water boiler/heater system, central air, new roof, pave the drive way, standard lawn care each year, increased heat, increased electric, etc etc.

In the rental so far i have had to pay for.....ummmm....nothing?

at 1100 dollar rental its going to cost me 396,000.
Of course will it stay 1100 a month forever? Nah. Of course you could continue to shop around for the same 1100.


now the question is what will be the value of the home after 30 years.
Right now it would be about 225k ish.



So total cost of ownership before upkeep of the house $545,700- 225,000 value = 320,700
Additional expenses 2000-4000 a year (i'd argue this is low end). $60-120,000. = 380-440k

Rental 390-450k?


So whenever i crunch the numbers i always come out with the idea that home ownership is really not all its cracked out to be.

Especially when you could take the 300-400-500 dollars a month additional you are spending and invest it just like your home would be an investment.


$300 dollars invested with a lousy 3% return nets you $174,821 after 30 years. 6% return would be $301,354.

I bought a place when I was in university for 280k, 30k down. I rented it out and it was slightly cash flow positive but assume it netted 0. Sold it for 430k 8 years later and walked away with 200k cash after taxes, which is a 26.76% return compounded annually.

The place I live now would cost me 2k per month in rent, the mortgage is 900 per month and property taxes are 1.2k per year. 60k down. House has doubled in value in 7 years.

[Witchblade77]

- Yah was going off my actual house if i kept it and the current apt i live in which is about the same size minus one bedroom and the land. I am in one of the more expensive rental and housing markets/counties in the country.

- at the end of 30 year mortgage i gave you the current position the very rough math would put you in. Now i would also add that the upkeep on your house after 30 years and required care and upgrades will increase substantially to maintain the level of growth needed to keep up with rental + investing the difference.

- You talk about increased cost of rentals, but its about on par with the increase in property tax, insurance, extra utilities. Those are the main reasons why rent goes up so its logical that the increases go lock step with each other.

- Moving? LOL 39.99 for a rental truck and some friends, beer and pizza.

as for everything else, go read the post because its kinda all in there.

at the end of 30 years you either own a home or have a huge nest egg in investments.
the size of both is very dependent on a lot of factors that i will agree

minus 1 bedroom and the land is NOT the same size. bedrooms make a difference in cost - couple of hundred dollars worth of difference (how much depends on where you are renting. major metropolitan areas, a room can cost you $800+). land makes a difference. you are already starting off with a faulty premise.

costs of the taxes may go up. but unless for whatever reason you got a shit mortgage - your mortgage payment will NOT go up. utilities are generally NOT included in your rent (and if they are, then your rent amount compensates for it - as i said, landlords are not in it for the goodness of their hearts), so I don't know why you keep harping on them - you pay them while renting and you pay them while owning.

packing up takes time. even if you are so prepared that you have blankets for furniture, and lucked out and found a bunch of free boxes and for whatever reason own a hand-truck (that's a lot of ifs there) - and for whatever reason you are forgetting that you have to refuel said truck (either you buy your own fuel, or you pay them to refuel it which costs more, so better to refuel yourself and $39.99 truck is a mid size and eats more fuel then your average car, I'm going by U-haul prices/sizes here by the by in case it matters) and I guess you don't want to get insurance on it either (shit happens no matter how carefully you drive - do you want your insurance premiums to go up just because someone didn't pay attention on the road?), you are once again severely underestimating the costs of moving. even that pizza and bear is NOT accounted for as a moving expense. as if the ONLY cost you have is a truck rental. not even accounting for sales tax. and lets not forget. stuff breaks. stuff gets lost.

I did read the post. that's the problem. its NOT all there. you are very conveniently avoiding lot of particulars AND making a lot of assumptions. best case scenario, you may be break even and use your investments to keep paying your rent for a smaller place.

now. again. for plenty of people renting is better the ownership for variety of reasons. but better =/= cheaper or more profitable. better= availability of certain opportunities, flexibility in moving (moving sucks regardless, but moving with having to sell your old place, sucks more and depending on how far along you are in your mortgage, ends up being extra expensive), less of a headache when it comes to maintenance (I am NOT forgetting having to do your own maintenance, I'm very keenly aware of it, being responsible for it in our own house and all) although... some of the headache is STILL there (repair people taking their sweet time, not fixing things right first time around, etc), you just don't get to see the bills for it right away. they sneak up on you in form of rent increases. but I digress. renting has the same degree of convenience as eating out vs cooking. faster, easier, don't need to clean the dishes you used to cook. don't even need to own much of those if you consistently eat out. its great. it just costs more, and you are at a mercy of someone else's menu.

[callipygoustp]

In Buffalo, NY for a few months helping some family out. Was looking at real estate, both buying and renting, in the area and I just cannot believe the prices being asked in an area that I consider to be a dead zone. It's absolutely crazy here.

[Zan15]

minus 1 bedroom and the land is NOT the same size. bedrooms make a difference in cost - couple of hundred dollars worth of difference (how much depends on where you are renting. major metropolitan areas, a room can cost you $800+). land makes a difference. you are already starting off with a faulty premise.

Great so my apt land is about 12 acers of open space vs my house of less than one after you discount the pool, shed, etc.
Yah so i think my apt has it beat by a mile.

-1 bedroom + 1 great room + 1 small office. i call it a wash since the sqft is about the same even though to get there i have to include the full basement including the back storage room and utility/wash/boiler room.

We already set that it was roughly the same size.

costs of the taxes may go up. but unless for whatever reason you got a shit mortgage - your mortgage payment will NOT go up. utilities are generally NOT included in your rent (and if they are, then your rent amount compensates for it - as i said, landlords are not in it for the goodness of their hearts), so I don't know why you keep harping on them - you pay them while renting and you pay them while owning.

.

well there is still % of homes financed on a variable, the vast majority are on fixed so unless you have a major issue like the roof needing to be replaced and you have to refinance you are right they generally will not go up.

Utilities are "sometimes" include. Like my heat is included as is water. I've hardly seen any aptartments without rent. They also mostly pay for garbage which @ my place was 75 dollars a month. Thanks to the pool the water was...well lets not include that mess cause not everyone has a pool.

in my example i was already paying more for the house vs the apt before i even got to utilities and such.

packing up takes time. even if you are so prepared that you have blankets for furniture, and lucked out and found a bunch of free boxes and for whatever reason own a hand-truck (that's a lot of ifs there) - and for whatever reason you are forgetting that you have to refuel said truck (either you buy your own fuel, or you pay them to refuel it which costs more, so better to refuel yourself and $39.99 truck is a mid size and eats more fuel then your average car, I'm going by U-haul prices/sizes here by the by in case it matters) and I guess you don't want to get insurance on it either (shit happens no matter how carefully you drive - do you want your insurance premiums to go up just because someone didn't pay attention on the road?), you are once again severely underestimating the costs of moving. even that pizza and bear is NOT accounted for as a moving expense. as if the ONLY cost you have is a truck rental. not even accounting for sales tax. and lets not forget. stuff breaks. stuff gets lost.

i work at an warehouse. nuff said on the supplies.
You can find boxes anywhere, just go down to the local big box store (get the pun, lol?). Go out back and ask them if you can have the boxes.

insurance on a uhall when my credit card and insurance already covers it? LOL umm why not just burn money?
Also i would buy seperate insurance online as i do with all rentals for 8 dollars a day. great coverage for up to 35k no deductibles.

Did you live in apartments before you owned houses? I mean did you really move that much? Seems a weird thing to focus on even if you moved every year that would be what 3-5 thousand over 30 years??

Hell the gas/oil/repair in the rider mower over 30 years would offset the cost of moving :P

I did read the post. that's the problem. its NOT all there. you are very conveniently avoiding lot of particulars AND making a lot of assumptions. best case scenario, you may be break even and use your investments to keep paying your rent for a smaller place.

.

Same can be said for your 100% increase in home value in such a short period of time.

No its not all there but reality is what is left can be offest by what was left out of each scenario. It covered the majors.

now. again. for plenty of people renting is better the ownership for variety of reasons. but better =/= cheaper or more profitable. better= availability of certain opportunities, flexibility in moving (moving sucks regardless, but moving with having to sell your old place, sucks more and depending on how far along you are in your mortgage, ends up being extra expensive), less of a headache when it comes to maintenance (I am NOT forgetting having to do your own maintenance, I'm very keenly aware of it, being responsible for it in our own house and all) although... some of the headache is STILL there (repair people taking their sweet time, not fixing things right first time around, etc), you just don't get to see the bills for it right away. they sneak up on you in form of rent increases. but I digress. renting has the same degree of convenience as eating out vs cooking. faster, easier, don't need to clean the dishes you used to cook. don't even need to own much of those if you consistently eat out. its great. it just costs more, and you are at a mercy of someone else's menu.

Yah i did not even get into the value of your time doing all that maintenance if you really wanted to add that you are looking at what 5-10-15 hours a week at your current salary x 52 weeks x 30 years.



At the time i was making 32 dollars an hour. took me 3 hours to do my lawn, edge, blow on a good day. summer less, fall/spring more. Winter added blowing/shovling.
3 hours a week x $32 x 52 weeks x 30 years = $147,760

of course not everything was included in my calculations.... and who in their right mind would pay the lawn boy 32 dollars an hour right???

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I bought a place when I was in university for 280k, 30k down. I rented it out and it was slightly cash flow positive but assume it netted 0. Sold it for 430k 8 years later and walked away with 200k cash after taxes, which is a 26.76% return compounded annually.

The place I live now would cost me 2k per month in rent, the mortgage is 900 per month and property taxes are 1.2k per year. 60k down. House has doubled in value in 7 years.

damn if i sold my house during the spikes of the 2000's i could have easly got 325k on my 171k house. did not do so well in the housing crash though.
been a long recovery

- - - Updated - - -

your problem is you are very bad at math.

example:
Person A can afford 2k/month for their home be rent or mortgage.

Option 1: Buy a 400k home, put down 3.5%, (14k) and have a payment of 2000 PITI
Option 2: Rent a 360k home, rent is 2000 month

Cost per month for both = 2k

What is the better option? Its A, in all scenarios.

.

Lets stop here for a second.

400k 3.5% down, and only $2000 payment?

@3% average mortgage rate this is what i come up with

Mortgage Payment (P&I) $1,627
Home Insurance $ 104
Mortgage Insurance (PMI) $201
Property Taxes $760
2692

Even at 2.5% loan i still come up with $2480

So you are looking at 40-600 dollars more a month.
Now of course you could live in a lower tax state i guess even though you mentioned CA so your taxes are probably worse than mine or on par.

now lets take your childish scenario of 220k into S&P, 220k/8k = 27.5. SO i could purchase 27 of those similar homes, 27*230,000= 6,210,000 in just equity gains, assuming id also rent those houses out for only $100 profit or $2700 month total, 2700*12=32400. 32400*7(years) = 226800.

I would have gained 6.2 million in equity, and another 225k in profits on renting at JUST $100 over cost a month (in reality, rent in this area would be 5-600 in profit typically).

There is nearly no scenario where renting is better than buying. No investment historically has kept up with real estate gains.

Childish scenario of the two major benchmarks?

The two biggest investment vehicles and for which has the most money invested in relative to 401k, mutual funds, etc?

i mean are you serious?

if you really wanted silly
You could have invested 8,000 into bitcoin in 2013 and have equity of $13,643,581.897
i can list some stocks too if you want? Quite a number that historically have both kept up with real estate gains and beat them.

I alreay showed in my own house it came no where near keeping up with the two benchmarks.


BTW i like how you are assuming that every single house you invest in is going to return 100%. I also like how we went from a 2000 rental to you now renting the houses at 2700. But anywhoo based on everything i read the average real estate gain in this country is something very far south of your results. Its also a tad higher then my result as well.

[Noctiphobia]

ultimately it's simply cheaper than paying rent forever.

That really depends on rent to buy ratio. In a lot of major cities it's never worth it unless the property price goes way up. And anyone who tries to convince you that property prices always go up over long periods of time (or that buying a house is not a very risky investment unless you're buying hundreds of them) is either trying to sell you a house, or fell for the lies of someone who wanted to sell them one.

[crewskater]

Is there any actual benefit in buying a home?

Privacy would be a big one. Hearing your neighbors yell at each other gets old real quick!

[Jotaux]

Lets stop here for a second.

400k 3.5% down, and only $2000 payment?

@3% average mortgage rate this is what i come up with

Mortgage Payment (P&I) $1,627
Home Insurance $ 104
Mortgage Insurance (PMI) $201
Property Taxes $760
2692

Even at 2.5% loan i still come up with $2480

So you are looking at 40-600 dollars more a month.
Now of course you could live in a lower tax state i guess even though you mentioned CA so your taxes are probably worse than mine or on par.

I have never paid 3% or over on my mortgage. 2.74% was the highest and right now rates are so ridiculously low, I'm kicking myself for renewing last year at 2.10%. My other place is variable at 1.81% as of December, I haven't looked at today's rate but its probably less.

[Kathandira]

what? the landlord can't ban having pets here unless it's specifically an apartment complex that is supposed to be for allergic people...

It can range from No Pets, A Pet Security Deposit, or A Pet Tax that you pay each month.

Then there are cases where they only allow specific breeds.

- - - Updated - - -

In Buffalo, NY for a few months helping some family out. Was looking at real estate, both buying and renting, in the area and I just cannot believe the prices being asked in an area that I consider to be a dead zone. It's absolutely crazy here.

NJ isn't any better.

I plan on saving up around 30k-40k over the next few years, and moving south to a cheaper place. My Rent for a 750 sq ft 1br apartment is getting close to $1,700/mo. I've looked at homes south of me, and I could be paying 2/3s of that to own a full home, property taxes included. Rather than a Bedroom, Living Room, Dining Room, Kitchen, Bathroom, and two small closets.

I am fortunate enough to have a job where I can work remotely, so I really have a lot of room to decide where I want to purchase my first home.

[Rasulis]

In Buffalo, NY for a few months helping some family out. Was looking at real estate, both buying and renting, in the area and I just cannot believe the prices being asked in an area that I consider to be a dead zone. It's absolutely crazy here.

Likely because of expansion of remote work. We have vacation properties in Catalina, Ft. Bragg and Carmel. For the most part, we did not see much growth with those properties pre-pandemic. Since the pandemic, we have been getting unsolicited cash offers left and right for double of their values pre-pandemic. The Ft. Bragg house was surprising because it is an 8-hr drive from SF.

[ghotihook]

NJ isn't any better.

I plan on saving up around 30k-40k over the next few years, and moving south to a cheaper place. My Rent for a 750 sq ft 1br apartment is getting close to $1,700/mo. I've looked at homes south of me, and I could be paying 2/3s of that to own a full home, property taxes included. Rather than a Bedroom, Living Room, Dining Room, Kitchen, Bathroom, and two small closets.

I am fortunate enough to have a job where I can work remotely, so I really have a lot of room to decide where I want to purchase my first home.

That's why I am glad I live where I live and bought when I bought in the upper midwest. I bought 10 years ago and my 15yr mortgage is currently $1400/mo. I have a friend looking to move back here and prices have more than doubled since when I bought 10 years ago.

[Kathandira]

That's why I am glad I live where I live and bought when I bought in the upper midwest. I bought 10 years ago and my 15yr mortgage is currently $1400/mo. I have a friend looking to move back here and prices have more than doubled since when I bought 10 years ago.

It is pretty crazy how much a house costs in this country. You'd think, at least in NJ, there was something we could do about it. We are creeping on a 50/50 split between home owners, and renters. It was roughly a 60/40 split in 2018.

That should say a lot about the state of finances in our state.

[Zan15]

I have never paid 3% or over on my mortgage. 2.74% was the highest and right now rates are so ridiculously low, I'm kicking myself for renewing last year at 2.10%. My other place is variable at 1.81% as of December, I haven't looked at today's rate but its probably less.

lol umm buy a house more than a few years ago?
in 2002 mine was 6.5% on my first house. Right now my Ex owns the house and its in its third refi @ around 3%
took a very long time from that point for rates to drop below 3%. Took a few economic crashes and a pandemic


i was going off the standard base rate as of yesterday
30-year fixed-rate 3.030% today.

Could get in the 2's easy with high credit and a few points or something outside 30 year fixed, but we were talking 30 year and the lower rates could have additional cost upfront. I assumed at 3.5% down there was no money to buy down the rate


was again going off averages. i mean you could haggle the landlord down too 25 dollars a month :P

[Witchblade77]

Great so my apt land is about 12 acers of open space vs my house of less than one after you discount the pool, shed, etc.
Yah so i think my apt has it beat by a mile.

-1 bedroom + 1 great room + 1 small office. i call it a wash since the sqft is about the same even though to get there i have to include the full basement including the back storage room and utility/wash/boiler room.

We already set that it was roughly the same size.






well there is still % of homes financed on a variable, the vast majority are on fixed so unless you have a major issue like the roof needing to be replaced and you have to refinance you are right they generally will not go up.

Utilities are "sometimes" include. Like my heat is included as is water. I've hardly seen any aptartments without rent. They also mostly pay for garbage which @ my place was 75 dollars a month. Thanks to the pool the water was...well lets not include that mess cause not everyone has a pool.

in my example i was already paying more for the house vs the apt before i even got to utilities and such.




i work at an warehouse. nuff said on the supplies.
You can find boxes anywhere, just go down to the local big box store (get the pun, lol?). Go out back and ask them if you can have the boxes.

insurance on a uhall when my credit card and insurance already covers it? LOL umm why not just burn money?
Also i would buy seperate insurance online as i do with all rentals for 8 dollars a day. great coverage for up to 35k no deductibles.

Did you live in apartments before you owned houses? I mean did you really move that much? Seems a weird thing to focus on even if you moved every year that would be what 3-5 thousand over 30 years??

Hell the gas/oil/repair in the rider mower over 30 years would offset the cost of moving :P



Same can be said for your 100% increase in home value in such a short period of time.

No its not all there but reality is what is left can be offest by what was left out of each scenario. It covered the majors.






Yah i did not even get into the value of your time doing all that maintenance if you really wanted to add that you are looking at what 5-10-15 hours a week at your current salary x 52 weeks x 30 years.



At the time i was making 32 dollars an hour. took me 3 hours to do my lawn, edge, blow on a good day. summer less, fall/spring more. Winter added blowing/shovling.
3 hours a week x $32 x 52 weeks x 30 years = $147,760

of course not everything was included in my calculations.... and who in their right mind would pay the lawn boy 32 dollars an hour right???

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damn if i sold my house during the spikes of the 2000's i could have easly got 325k on my 171k house. did not do so well in the housing crash though.
been a long recovery

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Lets stop here for a second.

400k 3.5% down, and only $2000 payment?

@3% average mortgage rate this is what i come up with

Mortgage Payment (P&I) $1,627
Home Insurance $ 104
Mortgage Insurance (PMI) $201
Property Taxes $760
2692

Even at 2.5% loan i still come up with $2480

So you are looking at 40-600 dollars more a month.
Now of course you could live in a lower tax state i guess even though you mentioned CA so your taxes are probably worse than mine or on par.






Childish scenario of the two major benchmarks?

The two biggest investment vehicles and for which has the most money invested in relative to 401k, mutual funds, etc?

i mean are you serious?

if you really wanted silly
You could have invested 8,000 into bitcoin in 2013 and have equity of $13,643,581.897
i can list some stocks too if you want? Quite a number that historically have both kept up with real estate gains and beat them.

I alreay showed in my own house it came no where near keeping up with the two benchmarks.


BTW i like how you are assuming that every single house you invest in is going to return 100%. I also like how we went from a 2000 rental to you now renting the houses at 2700. But anywhoo based on everything i read the average real estate gain in this country is something very far south of your results. Its also a tad higher then my result as well.

again you go with discounting amenities. pool is a money sink, granted, but private pool is a bfd. also, you do not need to get a place with a pool in a first place. apartments with pool acess either charge you extra for acess or cost more in a first place. when you said minus the bedroom, you didn't specify number of rooms, total.

what kind of maintenance are you talking about that takes 10-15 hours a week??? that is exclusive to home ownership rather then renting? cleaning you do either way. trash you take out either way.

right because anyone who ever moves has acess to a warehouse they are working at that they can just borrow supplies from.
yes I buy separate insurance on a moving truck, because I do not want it to go on my personal car insurance. as I said - someone is an ass and your personal premiums go up. and hilarious part is.. you admit it yourself that you buy a separate insurance on a moving truck as well. you just failed to mention it in your previous post, so you are arguing with me over.. what exactly here? I've moved 4 times before we bought our house and moved for the last time. it wasn't once a year, but it was still an undertaking each and every time. and it was twice the amount you mentioned because not all of us are lucky with acess to a warehouse, and all that jazz. yeah we went to a supermarket to see if they had boxes. they didn't, at least not the kind that were useful to us. and places like that compact their boxes every day, break them down as they go, and then compact at the end of the day for recycling. getting enough boxes of the right size from supermarkets is again a matter of pure luck. we ended up buying boxes from uhaul at $2 each. doesn't seem like much but it still adds up. tolls add up. etc etc et, there are a lot of little costs that you may not notice right away, but they are there. adding up.

rider mower? WHY? if you say your lawn in your house was less then an acre, why were you using a rider mower??? we have front and back lawn probably about half an acre (you did mention shed, etc, so not all of your acreage was a lawn) and it takes like an hour to mow once a week with a regular old hand mower even for me, less for my SO. its fairly efficient so we spend $20 tops for gas for the entire mowing season (wasn't particularly expensive either, about $150 when we bought it 4 years ago, and its going to keep going for us for a few more years at least). shoveling doesn't take all that much time either, with a snow blower. also... prices vary as does weather depending on location. we had almost no snow to shovel this entire winter, except for couple of weeks in feb. but no mowing either, cause it was too cold for grass to grow. there is also always an option of doing your lawn in a way that doesn't require mowing at all. that said, your apartment comes with 15 acres you say? is that 15 acres you can do whatever the hell you want with? is this your personal acreage? because.... I do not buy it. and if we are talking shared space within the apartment complex its like me claiming that the park and the public woods behind my house is part of my space and included in my property. which... its not, even though I have full acess to it.

if rent includes heat/ trash you bet your ass its reflected in your rent amount. I keep saying, dude. landlords are not in it for the charity. they are not going to charge you at a loss to themselves.

roofs last for decades. you don't just replace it constantly, and if you buy a house with relatively new roof, you have years and years and years to go before you need to replace it again. same for all the other stuff. just don't abuse your place and it will last. and that kind of general maintenance of your living space is something you are responsible for in a rental as well, only the major stuff gets fixed by a landlord.

last but not least. we keep talking about house as investment. unless you are renting it out for profit? its not just an investment. its a LIVING expense. renting or buying - its a LIVING EXPENSE. its something you are stuck with no matter which way your chose. it amazes me that somehow the home ownership is treated as investment but renting is treated as a living expense. they are BOTH that. well.. you could in theory sell the house, but you still gotta live somewhere.

also, what the hell is that property tax payment? MONTHLY?? what location are we talking about here for that property tax to be THAT high?? even my parents who live in NYC do not pay NEARLY that much monthly. and if property taxes are that high there? then so will be the rental prices. because... and i repeat.... yet again... landlords are NOT going to rent at a loss. they are in it for the profit.

in any case. whatever you chose to do - own or rent, you are trading something off. renting is not some amazing loophole that lets you pay less while getting the same or more. you are trading something off. whether its privacy, security, amount of space, costs, or all of the above, its a tradeoff. you merely CHOSE what you are willing to trade off and what's more beneficial to you in your personal circumstances. I know I'm never going to rent again if I can help it. the amount of effort it takes just to find a place that is ok with big dogs, is enough of an incentive not to put myself at that much of a mercy of other people. the fact that I have actual genuine privacy and don't have to ask for permission to plant tomatoes or change my flower beds in a spring or keep my thermostat at the temperature I wanted to be, rather then what landlord choses for me - is enough of an incentive. but that's just me. you do you. just don't try to claim that your way is unequivocally better by using incomplete math.

P.S. we bought our house 5 years ago with 5% down, 30 year mortgage with 2.6% interest rate. our credit score is decent nowadays (took a few years to get it to that point after making some major mistakes in our 20ties), but its not perfect, even now so our rate was not the lowest possible at the time. we made an effort to bring out equity up to over 20% and haven't had to pay pmi for about a year now. before we bought our house, we rented in the area for about a year to see if we like living here. we did. our rent was $100 higher for a smaller place (yes I'm including all the base costs in that so that its apples to apples comparison). with shared land (not our personal land). got lucky with a landlord too (among other things, she let us stay month to month while we were looking for a house, rather then asking for another 1 year lease term). weren't always that lucky. my parents bought their condo about... 10 years ago, give or take? their rate is also under 3% (don't remember the exact amount). 30 year mortgage (I still think they shouldn't have gone with a condo, but they wanted not to have to deal with maintenance and would rather pay maintenance fee and have if done by their hoa instead). I don't know where that 6% rate is coming from, unless we are talking people with bad or nonexistent credit. rentals also ask for credit check, nowadays, at least the ones in decent areas with timely maintenance. you can find a place to live without a credit check, but its going to be a shithole.

[The Oblivion]

lol umm buy a house more than a few years ago?
in 2002 mine was 6.5% on my first house. Right now my Ex owns the house and its in its third refi @ around 3%
took a very long time from that point for rates to drop below 3%. Took a few economic crashes and a pandemic


i was going off the standard base rate as of yesterday
30-year fixed-rate 3.030% today.

Could get in the 2's easy with high credit and a few points or something outside 30 year fixed, but we were talking 30 year and the lower rates could have additional cost upfront. I assumed at 3.5% down there was no money to buy down the rate


was again going off averages. i mean you could haggle the landlord down too 25 dollars a month :P

Where I currently am:
400k purchase
3.21% rate 30 year fixed
3.5% down is 14k
P.I = 1671
Insurance = 66
Property tax = 263
TOTAL = $2000

again, you are simply bad at math. everything you are saying in this thread is bad information, and you clearly dont have a clue about real estate or investing if you think renting is ever financially better than owning. lmfao you dont even realize most lenders have programs for 3.5% down without PMI.