20 man mythic recruitment killing my guild...what about you?

[kaminaris]

Then you have the exact same with same thing with 16-17 people in a build.
It doesn't solve anything, it just moves the numbers around somewhat.

- - - Updated - - -

Flex + difficulty content with actual tuning simply doesn't work.

It doesn't have to be perfectly balanced because as someone who actually did the HR stuff let me tell you: It's far better to do raid in harder setup than usual (be it 18-19 people if mythic flex is a thing, having substitute tank, substitute healer etc) than not having a raid at all.

The moment you start having irregular schedule (not doing raids sometimes because someone doesn't show up) is the moment when guild slowly falls apart. People start to get frustrated and start looking for other more stable opportunities.

You won't have exact same thing in 16-17 people as statistically you have 20% less busywork, less management and much higher chance to HAVE CONSISTENT raids (if we are talking about flex).

Also skill spread is lower so you won't have many situations where your best player is much better than worst one - this is also a big problem of 20 mans.

[ClassicPeon]

Comparing apples to oranges.

Major issue with 40man raids as far as difficulty is concerned is that having 40 competent people is extremely difficult to maintain.

10man however, is extremely difficult to design in that aspect because you can't reasonably design every encounter around a given setup, you can't design an encounter around Warlock Portal because that would make Warlocks mandatory, can't expect every raid to have a Priest, so any MC shenanigans are off the table, can't have any mages spellstealing shit, etc..
And that just scratches the surface, certain healers like Resto Shaman simply struggled in a 10man setting because they don't work very well with fewer people around.

Both have issues, but they're not the same.
40man raids can exist in theory but simply struggle because having to maintain a roster of 40+ people that are competent to overcome challenging encounters is a HR nightmare.
10man raids simply have massive design issues from the getgo because Blizzard wants to humor the idea that every class should be unique and have unique tools.

Challenging 10man raids can exist just fine in a game where Class toolkits are a lot more homogenized.

We havent had any class specific design since like... wrath? I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here. Our guild of 20 doesnt have one of each class either in our mythic raids, and its not a problem.

They design encounters around stuff like immmunities and such, that several classes have. And melee vs range. They dont have MC stuff or direct spellsteal stuff in there anymore.

Edit:

In short, design the encounters just like now, for 20 people. Its fine. We can find ways to work around not having a warlock portal for hungering destroyer and such. We over gear the content so we can skip certain things.

[callipygoustp]

Have to wonder how much better the situation would be if the current restrictive Mythic lockout "system" was done away with.

[erifwodahs]

How are you going to argue 5000 guilds are nothing when less then 800 guilds has cleared sire?

And thats just 5000 potential guilds thats whithout everyone(like me and op) who are having difficulties progressing because of roster issues but already cleared some of it.

5k guilds is only 20% of the raiders who did it on HC. It's not nothing and I have stated that it's not that people aren't raiding mythic. My point was that trying to tune flex difficulty for bosses who will be killed by so little people is a waste of time because flex is way harder to tune than doing fixed size tuning. It would certainly be nice for guilds who are struggling with roster on hungering, but chances are that if you are stuck on hungering, they won't get past blood council, therefore a lot of work on those bosses for very little participation. Mythic is cutting edge tuning, it's not like they can apply sliders - each raid size will have to be reviewed against each mechanic. If you make lower sizes harder - bad, if you make lower sizes easier, you essentially make guilds to bench people.

[ClassicPeon]

5k guilds is only 20% of the raiders who did it on HC. It's not nothing and I have stated that it's not that people aren't raiding mythic. My point was that trying to tune flex difficulty for bosses who will be killed by so little people is a waste of time because flex is way harder to tune than doing fixed size tuning. It would certainly be nice for guilds who are struggling with roster on hungering, but chances are that if you are stuck on hungering, they won't get past blood council, therefore a lot of work on those bosses for very little participation. Mythic is cutting edge tuning, it's not like they can apply sliders - each raid size will have to be reviewed against each mechanic. If you make lower sizes harder - bad, if you make lower sizes easier, you essentially make guilds to bench people.

You - dont - have - to - tune - them - differently. Tune them for 20 people. Do exactly what you do now with raids. Then when the raid is out work on making a decent downtuning of it for 10-20 or 15-20 or whatever the magic number is. Could it potentially be harder for 15 people? sure. But its still easier for us with 18 ppl and no pugs then it is for us with 20 ppl and 2 pugs.

Mythic progression raiding as in top 100 possibly is cutting edge. The rest really isnt.

Flex is tuned well enough that its better to bring along another good raider then it is to hit a magic number of people in the raid. If you get benched in flex its because you aint good enough.

[Kralljin]

We havent had any class specific design since like... wrath? I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here. Our guild of 20 doesnt have one of each class either in our mythic raids, and its not a problem.

Have you done LK heroic without a Disc or Spine of Deathwing without a Resto Shaman - before any massive nerfs due to the % (de)buffs?

Simply because there is no specific mechanic, doesn't mean there aren't mechanics that heavily favor a certain class / spec.

They design encounters around stuff like immmunities and such, that several classes have. And melee vs range. They dont have MC stuff or direct spellsteal stuff in there anymore.

Those are the most obvious examples, not the only ones, and yes, those existed in WoD and Legion for example.

Another example are Warlock Portals, encounters such as Jaina, let alone G'huun, without a Warlock would have been a pure nightmare.
Imagine an Encounter like Azshara without a disc - having one disc is absolutely manageable in 20man, a totally different story in 10man, because you only have 2 healers in 10man.

Putting aside that any soaking mechanic were an absolute nightmare on 10man - it was a day and night difference in 10man whether a guy with an immunity or one without got targetted, something that is absolutely manageable in 20 man, because you have more people around to soak or can throw some external onto them, which aren't necessarily available in 10man.

[ClassicPeon]

Have you done LK heroic without a Disc or Spine of Deathwing without a Resto Shaman - before any massive nerfs due to the % (de)buffs?

Simply because there is no specific mechanic, doesn't mean there aren't mechanics that heavily favor a certain class / spec.

Those are the most obvious examples, not the only ones, and yes, those existed in WoD and Legion for example.

Another example are Warlock Portals, encounters such as Jaina, let alone G'huun, without a Warlock would have been a pure nightmare.
Imagine an Encounter like Azshara without a disc - having one disc is absolutely manageable in 20man, a totally different story in 10man, because you only have 2 healers in 10man.

Putting aside that any soaking mechanic were an absolute nightmare on 10man - it was a day and night difference in 10man whether a guy with an immunity or one without got targetted, something that is absolutely manageable in 20 man, because you have more people around to soak or can throw some external onto them, which aren't necessarily available in 10man.

Specs being overpowered at certain points in classic wow has absolutely nothing to do with encoutners being designed around bringing them specificly. Its simply because people where worse and specs where poorly tuned compared to now.

As for your 2nd paragraph thats literally my point.

Design the encounters for 20 ppl. Let us go in there as 15-18 ppl with a bit less hp/damage on mechanics.

Still get 3 sinseekers thats far easier to deal with with a lot of immunes on 10 man? Tough luck. Figure it out or you are stuck.

Just give people the option of tuning the encounter down slightly for their raid size.

[Osmeric]

WoWProgress - try using that.

I'm not sure that's a good source now. I noticed the guild my main is parked in (I gave up in December) suddenly was listed as killing H Sire -- not because they killed him, but because they picked up enough players who had killed him elsewhere in now-dead guilds. I see many dead guilds still listed in WoWProgress on that server, and I have no doubt the same is true elsewhere.

[Kralljin]

Specs being overpowered at certain points in classic wow has absolutely nothing to do with encoutners being designed around bringing them specificly. Its simply because people where worse and specs where poorly tuned compared to now.

Who mentioned Classic?

As for your 2nd paragraph thats literally my point.

Your point is that some encounters still made certain specs next to mandatory?
Okay i guess, is just a bit in conflict with the idea of bringing 10man back.

Still get 3 sinseekers thats far easier to deal with with a lot of immunes on 10 man? Tough luck. Figure it out or you are stuck.

Hm, a solution that might impose a near impossible challenge onto players because they chose the "wrong" raidsize, i wonder why Blizzard did not take this solution.

Disregarding that this whole thing can also go the other way: Encounters being much easier at a given size, which obviously has far bigger consequences with how people will interact with a given content.

We've been there before: Blizzard did not manage to balance 10man and 25man heroic properly, sometimes a fight was way harder in the former and sometimes the latter, that won't go away because the number is now 20 instead of 25.

[Caerrona]

Who mentioned Classic?

Your point is that some encounters still made certain specs next to mandatory?
Okay i guess, is just a bit in conflict with the idea of bringing 10man back.

Hm, a solution that might impose a near impossible challenge onto players because they chose the "wrong" raidsize, i wonder why Blizzard did not take this solution.

Disregarding that this whole thing can also go the other way: Encounters being much easier at a given size, which obviously has far bigger consequences with how people will interact with a given content.

We've been there before: Blizzard did not manage to balance 10man and 25man heroic properly, sometimes a fight was way harder in the former and sometimes the latter, that won't go away because the number is now 20 instead of 25.

Absolutely no one except bottom of the dumpster 2000+ guilds/players cared about a fight being easier/harder on 25 vs 10.

It was a raid boss. You either killed it with the raid size you were playing or you didn't.

Just like now their are tiers of raid bosses.

[ClassicPeon]

Who mentioned Classic?

Your point is that some encounters still made certain specs next to mandatory?
Okay i guess, is just a bit in conflict with the idea of bringing 10man back.

Hm, a solution that might impose a near impossible challenge onto players because they chose the "wrong" raidsize, i wonder why Blizzard did not take this solution.

Disregarding that this whole thing can also go the other way: Encounters being much easier at a given size, which obviously has far bigger consequences with how people will interact with a given content.

We've been there before: Blizzard did not manage to balance 10man and 25man heroic properly, sometimes a fight was way harder in the former and sometimes the latter, that won't go away because the number is now 20 instead of 25.

I count anything pre mop as classic now.

My point is very, very easy to understand and quite straight forward. My point is:

Make - the - encounters - for - 20 - ppl.

Let - us - decide - how - to - deal - with - it.

Got a 4 people soak mechanic on 20 man? Got a 4 people soak mechanic on everything else. Just deal with it or die.

All i am asking for is the possibility of downscaling the bosses health and his damage output to fit a bit less people

Edit:

And once again, you can leave the precious progression race as a 20 man only race.

[Accendor]

Yeah, it killed mine back in WoD. Couldn't scale the guild up when every guild was trying to recruit and people were quitting the game in droves. I think they never should've made 20man Mythic, it should've remained 10/25man because the push for most 10man guilds to scale up to Mythic lead to a massive loss guilds when you add in how poor player retention was in WoD.

I don't have any hope for ever raiding again until they get rid of 20man Mythic, I hate both the format (20 people is too many, you wind up with cliques within the guild instead of one cohesive group) and the logistics of getting enough people. The diminished individual responsibility makes me feel less useful as an individual and harder for me to find any sense of reward or achievement from downing a boss. I never liked 25man raiding (outside GDKP runs) because of the social environment in them.

If I read this "individual responsibility is too low in 20m mythic", one more time I will probably lose my mind.

I really wonder if any of the people who say this have even seen one raid past the first few bosses in the last 4-6 years.
Personal responsibility is insanely high, most fights are designed in a way that every player has to play most mechanics and failing to do so usually results in a wipe (either because of some raid wide damage or because its too much dmg/healing missing now).

There are surely a lot of things you can complain about in mythic raiding, but complaining about not enough personal responsibility is insane.

[Beuargh]

too many "wannabe mythic" guilds but not that many mythic raiders. remember the start of the xpac when all the trash players created their own guild with "mythic ambitions" but never cleared any BFA heroic raid when current.

some players just need to look in the mirror, put their ego in their pocket and merge with a couple other guilds. but too many power hungry people who want to be the chief on the internet, thinking they have what it takes to lead and clean the content when they really just are that benched player for heroic runs in BFA .... "oh I will show'em I deserve my spot in the roster" *create my mythic guild* .... this is the same problem every xpac. just watch how many people complaining about mythic being too hard. this is just way over their head, most of them have nothing to do in mythic in the first place but will never admit it.

[Kralljin]

Absolutely no one except bottom of the dumpster 2000+ guilds/players cared about a fight being easier/harder on 25 vs 10.

Hey, you haven't been around during Cata / MoP then when any WoW discussion was aflame with the 10 vs. 25 man debate.
I still remember how butthurt 25man guilds were because any dps check was super easy in 10man, whereas bosses like Baleroc or Ultraxion were utterly brutal in 25man.
Meanwhile, 10man players complained that 25man guilds were just countering any damage heavy phase with a ton of raidcooldowns.
Garrosh starts spinning?
Don't kite or get away from him, just stack up and use Barrier + Spiritlink!

Paragon even made a post about it comparing 10 to 25man Firelands.

I count anything pre mop as classic now.

This is such an arbitrary definition that it's almost comical.

Disregarding that even MoP had its fair share of encounters that such issues occurring.
Thok for example was a lot easier in 25man because you had more raid cooldowns available and more tools to help out the guy who is kiting Thok (Grip, Warlock Portal, Feather, Roar, etc..)
Meanwhile, 10man continued to have an edge on every encounter with a tight Enrage.

All i am asking for is the possibility of downscaling the bosses health and his damage output to fit a bit less people

It's just not easy to implement because, for example, incoming damage cannot scale linearly with the amount of healers you have.
People are going to find holes in it - which people then will abuse and benching people because a given encounter is easier with fewer people sure sounds stupid.

[kranur]

Specs being overpowered at certain points in classic wow has absolutely nothing to do with encoutners being designed around bringing them specificly. Its simply because people where worse and specs where poorly tuned compared to now.

As for your 2nd paragraph thats literally my point.

Design the encounters for 20 ppl. Let us go in there as 15-18 ppl with a bit less hp/damage on mechanics.

Still get 3 sinseekers thats far easier to deal with with a lot of immunes on 10 man? Tough luck. Figure it out or you are stuck.

Just give people the option of tuning the encounter down slightly for their raid size.

You have the heroic difficulty that does just that. Mythic raiding is supposed to be cutting edge, not something easily manageable. if there's anything retail still does good, it's mythic raiding.
For example, if you tailor your guild roster to have no warlocks, then you can't complain that warlock portals can make some encounters a lot easier. You're supposed to either have class diversity in the roster if you're a regular guild or an army of alts to class stack on a boss by boss basis if you're a world top guild aiming to clear in previous raid's gear.

Guilds struggling with recruitment has happened at any point in time (especially guilds with incomplete progression during a drought and will continue to happen, this is nothing new)

[ClassicPeon]

Hey, you haven't been around during Cata / MoP then when any WoW discussion was aflame with the 10 vs. 25 man debate.
I still remember how butthurt 25man guilds were because any dps check was super easy in 10man, whereas bosses like Baleroc or Ultraxion were utterly brutal in 25man.
Meanwhile, 10man players complained that 25man guilds were just countering any damage heavy phase with a ton of raidcooldowns.
Garrosh starts spinning?
Don't kite or get away from him, just stack up and use Barrier + Spiritlink!

Paragon even made a post about it comparing 10 to 25man Firelands.

This is such an arbitrary definition that it's almost comical.

Disregarding that even MoP had its fair share of encounters that such issues occurring.
Thok for example was a lot easier in 25man because you had more raid cooldowns available and more tools to help out the guy who is kiting Thok (Grip, Warlock Portal, Feather, Roar, etc..)
Meanwhile, 10man continued to have an edge on every encounter with a tight Enrage.

It's just not easy to implement because, for example, incoming damage cannot scale linearly with the amount of healers you have.
People are going to find holes in it - which people then will abuse and benching people because a given encounter is easier with fewer people sure sounds stupid.

I couldnt give two fucks what you think about me defining what i think classic is. Its completely irrelevant to the discussion. Its literally meaningless.

What people found holes in before is when mechanics went from 4 soaks to 3 soaks. It wasnt the "well i take 5% less damage like this". At this point thats just not whats going to make it or break it. I'm advocading making it harder for lesser people because the mechanics would be made, as they are now, for a 20 man raid team.

As i've already said. Flex is tuned well enough now, that bringing along another good raider is better then hitting a "sweet spot". And its going to be even moreso like that when we dont have reductions in soak mechanics and such.

Your argument just falls flat

[Soikona]

With ten man you will have twice as much guilds and the same problem, lots of guilds with 8-9 people searching for 2-3 guys. Every expansion start lots of guilds come back or get funded; but people stop playing and some have to dissapear because there is not enough players for them all, that's it.

One of the benefits with 10 man is more tanking mains! I would be tank main, but it’s difficult to find a guild that wants a tank. At least in 10 man groups, we had twice the chances that a guild wanted a tank.

I don’t enjoy M+, so I only do my weekly and I’m away.

[ClassicPeon]

You have the heroic difficulty that does just that. Mythic raiding is supposed to be cutting edge, not something easily manageable. if there's anything retail still does good, it's mythic raiding.
For example, if you tailor your guild roster to have no warlocks, then you can't complain that warlock portals can make some encounters a lot easier. You're supposed to either have class diversity in the roster if you're a regular guild or an army of alts to class stack on a boss by boss basis if you're a world top guild aiming to clear in previous raid's gear.

Guilds struggling with recruitment has happened at any point in time (especially guilds with incomplete progression during a drought and will continue to happen, this is nothing new)

Are you literally reading my post and acting like i said the exact opposite of what i said? Because thats what your post here is saying.

I am saying:
Go ahead and make the encounter with having a warlock with portal in mind. Thats fine. If we cant work around that and it stops our mythic progression thats fine.

Its MUCH better then being stuck on a fight because you dont have 20 ppl in the raid.

I'm literally advocading not changing the mechanics based on us wanting a smaller raid size. Like do you get it now or?

Hc stops being a challenge very fast for us so i dont really know why you would think "thats what you have heroic for" means.

[Soikona]

If I read this "individual responsibility is too low in 20m mythic", one more time I will probably lose my mind.

I really wonder if any of the people who say this have even seen one raid past the first few bosses in the last 4-6 years.
Personal responsibility is insanely high, most fights are designed in a way that every player has to play most mechanics and failing to do so usually results in a wipe (either because of some raid wide damage or because its too much dmg/healing missing now).

There are surely a lot of things you can complain about in mythic raiding, but complaining about not enough personal responsibility is insane.

I would disagree. Granted I am only 9/10 M, but as a DPS it just seems I am hitting a sponge until it breaks. I play a retri, but even my blessings are not in dire need cause there is always enough other utilities that makes mine not needed.

[kranur]

Are you literally reading my post and acting like i said the exact opposite of what i said? Because thats what your post here is saying.

I am saying:
Go ahead and make the encounter with having a warlock with portal in mind. Thats fine. If we cant work around that and it stops our mythic progression thats fine.

Its MUCH better then being stuck on a fight because you dont have 20 ppl in the raid.

I'm literally advocading not changing the mechanics based on us wanting a smaller raid size. Like do you get it now or?

Hc stops being a challenge very fast for us so i dont really know why you would think "thats what you have heroic for" means.

The problem with flexing mythic is that one way or another, that number of players in the raid will alter the difficulty in a direction, so all that encounter design goes to shit when raiding with 17 people because it either becomes much harder or much easier, they will never be able to avoid this.