If the night elves gave half of Ashenvale to the Horde, would there have been peace?

[shuubu]

Ashenvale was the primary cause of Alliance and Horde's tensions in Kalimdor -- Durotar and Orgrimmar lacked the essential resources to sustain their population properly after the Third War, and the night elves seemed less than willing to provide them. It has been a major point of conflict -- in the original game, Cataclysm, in the Fourth War, etc.

As far as we know, Tyrande giving Azshara to the Horde was able to guarantee at least several years of peace, as the Horde abandoned most of their outposts in Ashenvale.

What if Tyrande and her night elves just gave the orcs half their territory? Would that have settled tensions between them permanently, and perhaps even averted or settled the Alliance-Horde faction conflict once and for all?

So... Horde was basically like the saviours from TWD?

[Accendor]

no it didn't, and is rly ugly to lie like that.

I have no idea how you have played BfA and can argue against that.
The overwhelming majority of the horde stood with Sylvanas till the end and not only tolerated the gruesome path that the chose but reveled in it. It was Sylvanas who abandoned the Horde, not the Horde who abandoned Sylvanas.

This isn't even about the war itself (even tho this is yet another war started by the horde), it is about the how. One part of the Horde committed genocide and the other half celebrated them for it. If you look at the events in Darkshore (slaughtering civilians / PoWs en mass) or Brennendam (Impaling Civilians alive and making their children watch them bleed out) you can hopefully clearly see as to why by all moral standards (no matter if you take IRL standards or ingame standards) those actions combined with all the atrocities of the past and especially after the events of SoO are intentionally used to label the horde as evil.

I am not even saying that I like that. In fact, I liked it way better when Alliance VS Horde was basically two sides of the same coin just with different nuances and reasons for their actions.

[Amaterasu65]

The tactic the OP references in the post is one of those you learn when you study International Relations. The tactic is called "appeasement". The threatened state (Teldrassil, Night Elves) complies to the economic/political/territorial demands of the powerful enemy, thinking that this way the aggressive state (Orgrimmar, Orcs) will minimize their aggressions and ease their sense of unsafety (unsafety causes a need to become more powerful, thus seeking more resources and making your opponents weaker).

Appeasement isn't a tactic used solely by nations who would have no chance on fighting with their aggressor-state. Nations that choose appeasement usually choose it because a) their means of fighting back are inadequate, 2) they don't have allies to back them up, 3) they don't have the means to make their powerful aggressors target someone else, 4) they hope that their aggressors can be "soothed". The tactic of appeasement only has temporary results, it's just a tactic of buying time. By complying to the powerful enemy and aggreeing to their demands makes the enemy more powerful. However, when you have more power aggression becomes even more attractive as the risk becomes smaller and the success is more possible. In the same time, the nation that agrees to give in to the enemy's demands becomes weaker and it would become even harder if the enemy attacks it in the future.

" But why would the enemy attack again? " Because all nations can never be sure on how much power they need to be "safe", so they will always try to gain more power as long as the cost of attaining is smaller than the profit.

So yes, the Night Elves would probably manage to attain peace temporarily, but that doesn't mean that the Orcs/Horde would never attack them again in the future. And then the Night Elves would have been weaker. Night Elves also had considerable strength (both as in martial forces and very strong individuals)to fight them back and had the Alliance to back them up if it all went straight to war. So there was definitely no reason to agree to the Horde's demands. Night Elf land since the beginning. Thrall shouldn't have chosen a barren land for the new home of his race, atonement or whatnot.

[Le Conceptuel]

The tactic the OP references in the post is one of those you learn when you study International Relations. The tactic is called "appeasement". The threatened state (Teldrassil, Night Elves) complies to the economic/political/territorial demands of the powerful enemy, thinking that this way the aggressive state (Orgrimmar, Orcs) will minimize their aggressions and ease their sense of unsafety (unsafety causes a need to become more powerful, thus seeking more resources and making your opponents weaker).

Appeasement isn't a tactic used solely by nations who would have no chance on fighting with their aggressor-state. Nations that choose appeasement usually choose it because a) their means of fighting back are inadequate, 2) they don't have allies to back them up, 3) they don't have the means to make their powerful aggressors target someone else, 4) they hope that their aggressors can be "soothed". The tactic of appeasement only has temporary results, it's just a tactic of buying time. By complying to the powerful enemy and aggreeing to their demands makes the enemy more powerful. However, when you have more power aggression becomes even more attractive as the risk becomes smaller and the success is more possible. In the same time, the nation that agrees to give in to the enemy's demands becomes weaker and it would become even harder if the enemy attacks it in the future.

" But why would the enemy attack again? " Because all nations can never be sure on how much power they need to be "safe", so they will always try to gain more power as long as the cost of attaining is smaller than the profit.

So yes, the Night Elves would probably manage to attain peace temporarily, but that doesn't mean that the Orcs/Horde would never attack them again in the future. And then the Night Elves would have been weaker. Night Elves also had considerable strength (both as in martial forces and very strong individuals)to fight them back and had the Alliance to back them up if it all went straight to war. So there was definitely no reason to agree to the Horde's demands. Night Elf land since the beginning. Thrall shouldn't have chosen a barren land for the new home of his race, atonement or whatnot.

This tactic was also attempted in World War II by Britain and later some people within the U.S. (i.e. Lindbergh). The former didn't go so well and the latter was just plain laughed off as nonsense.

[AcidicSyn]

You mean when the Horde came into Azeroth killing men women and children. Defiled holy sites, destroyed kingdoms. Attempted genocidal conquest. You seem to have a selective memory to forget the atrocities that the orcs did.

Yeah, you are definitely seeming like an internet troll.

He doesn't seem like an internet troll, he's an RPer, and he's hilarious.

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I'm sure someone's brought it up by now, but what Garrosh fails to mention is that that night elves had a trade agreement with the Horde for lumber. It was broken when Garrosh attacked them after they broke it off, thinking the Horde was responsible for a Twilight's Hammer attack.

Nothing the night elves could have done would've changed that turn of events. If the Horde owned half of ashenvale, nothing would have changed, they still would have inevitably pushed into the other half.

You said it yourself mate. Garrosh attacked them after they broke it [the trade agreement] off. So, it [the trade agreement] was broken by the night elves, and Garrosh attacked in retaliation.

Granted, I think Garrosh would have found a reason to attack anyway, but the fact still remains that he was not the one to break the agreement; that was the Night Elves fuck up.

[VladlTutushkin]

He doesn't seem like an internet troll, he's an RPer, and he's hilarious.

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You said it yourself mate. Garrosh attacked them after they broke it [the trade agreement] off. So, it [the trade agreement] was broken by the night elves, and Garrosh attacked in retaliation.

Granted, I think Garrosh would have found a reason to attack anyway, but the fact still remains that he was not the one to break the agreement; that was the Night Elves fuck up.

Night elves canonically broke the agreement because a disguised Twilight Cult slaughtered their druid delegation heading to the Barrens to have talks with the Horde , especially tauren. When elves demanded that perpetrators be found and punished or just an explanation of what was going on Garrosh responded that he dosent care who did that to the druids and even if those were horde soldiers he will NOT punish them because in his eyes they have done nothing wrong.

So basically he downright declared war on night elves with such a response, not even trying to seek peace even though it was Twilight Cult's fault originally.

[geco]

Night elves canonically broke the agreement because a disguised Twilight Cult slaughtered their druid delegation heading to the Barrens to have talks with the Horde , especially tauren. When elves demanded that perpetrators be found and punished or just an explanation of what was going on Garrosh responded that he dosent care who did that to the druids and even if those were horde soldiers he will NOT punish them because in his eyes they have done nothing wrong.

So basically he downright declared war on night elves with such a response, not even trying to seek peace even though it was Twilight Cult's fault originally.

and we emphasize that it was Garrosh and the Horde who needed something from the Kaldoeri.
The Kaldorei needed nothing from the Horde.

[AcidicSyn]

Night elves canonically broke the agreement because a disguised Twilight Cult slaughtered their druid delegation heading to the Barrens to have talks with the Horde , especially tauren. When elves demanded that perpetrators be found and punished or just an explanation of what was going on Garrosh responded that he dosent care who did that to the druids and even if those were horde soldiers he will NOT punish them because in his eyes they have done nothing wrong.

So basically he downright declared war on night elves with such a response, not even trying to seek peace even though it was Twilight Cult's fault originally.

Yeah I'm aware of that. I was just pointing out to Irian that he himself stated that the Night Elves were the ones to actually break the agreement while attempting to say the Orcs broke it, while in reality Garrosh did no such thing.

Sure, he didn't give two tugs of a kodos dong about the Night Elf delegation and would 100% have backed his people had they actually been guilty, but that doesn't change the fact that Garrosh did not actually break the deal and that attacking was a retaliatory strike, however thinly veiled.

Essentially the Twilight hammers plan worked like an absolute charm. The Night Elves broke the deal, causing Garrosh to lash out and attack, resulting in broken peace. Mission successful.

[Diaphin]

Garrosh was a reaction to the slavery and oppression of the Alliance of Evil. He was welcomed to Azeroth by other natives, including the Tauren and Trolls. He taught the natives of Azeroth how to fight against the oppression of the Alliance of Evil. He was the greatest Warchief of the Horde, until Warchief Sylvanas burned that corrupted, infested tree. The Alliance of Evil persists in their racist attempt to exclude certain native races of Azeroth from enjoying her bounty.

The Tauren and the Trolls hated the shit out of Garrosh and he murdered the leader of the Tauren with poison.

[AcidicSyn]

The Tauren and the Trolls hated the shit out of Garrosh and he murdered the leader of the Tauren with poison.

Mostly true, except the murder part. At that time Garrosh still believed in honorable combat and went into that fight with that mindset. he also did respect the Tauren for their strength though he saw their peaceful nature as a weakness. He had every intention of killing Cairne in an honorable Mak'gora, not murder. Magatha tampered with the fight by applying poison to Gorehowl while pretending to bless it. Garrosh was livid.

[VladlTutushkin]

Yeah I'm aware of that. I was just pointing out to Irian that he himself stated that the Night Elves were the ones to actually break the agreement while attempting to say the Orcs broke it, while in reality Garrosh did no such thing.

Sure, he didn't give two tugs of a kodos dong about the Night Elf delegation and would 100% have backed his people had they actually been guilty, but that doesn't change the fact that Garrosh did not actually break the deal and that attacking was a retaliatory strike, however thinly veiled.

Essentially the Twilight hammers plan worked like an absolute charm. The Night Elves broke the deal, causing Garrosh to lash out and attack, resulting in broken peace. Mission successful.

Openly not denying the blame and then saying that you wouldnt care if those were your troops is a diplomatic breakdown, which basically would work as a universal declaration of hostility.

[AcidicSyn]

Openly not denying the blame and then saying that you wouldnt care if those were your troops is a diplomatic breakdown, which basically would work as a universal declaration of hostility.

Yes, I do believe I acknowledged that as well. Its pretty obviously a breakdown in diplomacy, I never said it wasn't lol. Though again, it does not magically change the order of events, which was all I was clarifying.

[Super Dickmann]

Openly not denying the blame and then saying that you wouldnt care if those were your troops is a diplomatic breakdown, which basically would work as a universal declaration of hostility.

It hardly matters, war was already declared prior to that point by Varian and deliveries were already faulty before that. 'Glory' has an orc mention their deprivation at the time the Wrathgate happens and 'Heart of War' extends that to back in late TBC. Even then, it's not like Garrosh has to explain himself to a subordinate when that subordinate rushes into his room, calls him names, hits him and then challenges him to a duel over a false flag neither party had investigated. @AcidicSyn already covered how Garrosh didn't murder Cairne.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You said it yourself mate. Garrosh attacked them after they broke it [the trade agreement] off. So, it [the trade agreement] was broken by the night elves, and Garrosh attacked in retaliation.

Granted, I think Garrosh would have found a reason to attack anyway, but the fact still remains that he was not the one to break the agreement; that was the Night Elves fuck up.

Not only was it after the trade deal it was also after the alliance kicked off the war by attacking mulgore and the barrens.

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Night elves canonically broke the agreement because a disguised Twilight Cult slaughtered their druid delegation heading to the Barrens to have talks with the Horde , especially tauren. When elves demanded that perpetrators be found and punished or just an explanation of what was going on Garrosh responded that he dosent care who did that to the druids and even if those were horde soldiers he will NOT punish them because in his eyes they have done nothing wrong.

So basically he downright declared war on night elves with such a response, not even trying to seek peace even though it was Twilight Cult's fault originally.

The alliance had already declared war at that point so unless the night elfs were gonna pull out of the alliance garrosh couldn’t even declare war as it had already been done.

[VladlTutushkin]

Mostly true, except the murder part. At that time Garrosh still believed in honorable combat and went into that fight with that mindset. he also did respect the Tauren for their strength though he saw their peaceful nature as a weakness. He had every intention of killing Cairne in an honorable Mak'gora, not murder. Magatha tampered with the fight by applying poison to Gorehowl while pretending to bless it. Garrosh was livid.

Actually i see that as... quite a "convenient" thing. Which feeds to my theory of "Garrosh the delegator of crimes". He obviously knew that Magatha 1) Hated Cairne. 2) Was all about dirty tricks.
Not noticing a tampering with his axe, aka poison on it would require quite some... convenient blindness.
Later he verbally denounced Magatha for her "treachery" but did no moves to punish her and pretty much allowed her to take over Thunder Bluff because he refused to send horde forces to assist Baine and his tauren even though Grimtotem were slaughtering civilians.

Then he sit and watched who will come on top in the fight, while slanting Baine for "resorting to Alliance help" of which HE HAD NO CHOICE because horde REFUSED TO HELP.

I bet if Magatha would have won he would have simply struck and deal with her and publicly made her a ruler of Tauren in the Horde or perhaps simply allowed Grimtotem to rule over Thunderbluff while using some Bloodhoof pawn leader as a decoy.

Then there was Stonetalon "accident" when a general used a manabomb on a druid school and Garrosh arrived "just in time" to kill him, silencing him forever and preventing him from blubbering about any secret orders Garrosh might have given him.

Superweapon used successfully and all fault for a war crime shuffled onto a single general who was immediately killed without him even having time to talk.

Convenient again...

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Not only was it after the trade deal it was also after the alliance kicked off the war by attacking mulgore and the barrens.

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The alliance had already declared war at that point so unless the night elfs were gonna pull out of the alliance garrosh couldn’t even declare war as it had already been done.

And imagine if they would have? Or at least "done a Gilneas" and withdrew from active conflicts? Considering the delegation of so many druis they were ready for some serious parlaying but he didnt wanted that...

[Le Conceptuel]

Then there was Stonetalon "accident" when a general used a manabomb on a druid school and Garrosh arrived "just in time" to kill him, silencing him forever and preventing him from blubbering about any secret orders Garrosh might have given him.

Superweapon used successfully and all fault for a war crime shuffled onto a single general who was immediately killed without him even having time to talk.

Convenient again...

Untrue, actually. The devs outright said that it was due to a miscommunication that he did that - it wasn't part of an evil scheme, it was just due to different interpretations of the character within the dev team.

[VladlTutushkin]

Untrue, actually. The devs outright said that it was due to a miscommunication that he did that - it wasn't part of an evil scheme, it was just due to different interpretations of the character within the dev team.

And they said that correct interpretation of Garrosh character was always a jingoistic asshole warmonger with a chip on his shoulder so it actually fits well.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And imagine if they would have? Or at least "done a Gilneas" and withdrew from active conflicts? Considering the delegation of so many druis they were ready for some serious parlaying but he didnt wanted that...

The time to do so would have been when varian declared war in undercity months before any TH attack. You can’t be part of a faction openly at war with some one and then be surprised when they don’t bend over backward to appease you.

[AcidicSyn]

Actually i see that as... quite a "convenient" thing. Which feeds to my theory of "Garrosh the delegator of crimes". He obviously knew that Magatha 1) Hated Cairne. 2) Was all about dirty tricks.
Not noticing a tampering with his axe, aka poison on it would require quite some... convenient blindness.
Later he verbally denounced Magatha for her "treachery" but did no moves to punish her and pretty much allowed her to take over Thunder Bluff because he refused to send horde forces to assist Baine and his tauren even though Grimtotem were slaughtering civilians.

Then he sit and watched who will come on top in the fight, while slanting Baine for "resorting to Alliance help" of which HE HAD NO CHOICE because horde REFUSED TO HELP.

I bet if Magatha would have won he would have simply struck and deal with her and publicly made her a ruler of Tauren in the Horde or perhaps simply allowed Grimtotem to rule over Thunderbluff while using some Bloodhoof pawn leader as a decoy.

Then there was Stonetalon "accident" when a general used a manabomb on a druid school and Garrosh arrived "just in time" to kill him, silencing him forever and preventing him from blubbering about any secret orders Garrosh might have given him.

Superweapon used successfully and all fault for a war crime shuffled onto a single general who was immediately killed without him even having time to talk.

Convenient again...

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And imagine if they would have? Or at least "done a Gilneas" and withdrew from active conflicts? Considering the delegation of so many druis they were ready for some serious parlaying but he didnt wanted that...

And all of that can be explained incredibly easily by understanding garrosh and his values; or value [singular]: strength.

He is the Warchief, he did not think that Magatha would DARE to interfere with his sacred duel. You can call him closed minded, plenty of evidence for that, but what you're saying is, as you said; just a theory and not what actually happened. I am unaware of any canonical secret orders from garrosh to bomb the school either; source? Or is that another opinion?

The Tauren are in a civil war? GOOD. Let them kill off the weak and make way for the strong, the strong will rule and be much better allies. Baine having to ask for help at all was weakness, made even more disgusting by his asking for help from the Alliance. Garrosh just does not see things the way you do, he doesn't see the lack of choice, only the weakness in asking at all and his disgust with it. As far as Garrosh was concerned, Baine should have fought and either died gloriously or won and brought him Magathas head, and be rewarded.

This is how Garroshs mind worked. His entire perspective of the horde was based on romanticized stories of his father leading the glorious warsong into war and overcoming the demon enslavers. A fantasy that culminated in his Iron horde.

[Le Conceptuel]

And they said that correct interpretation of Garrosh character was always a jingoistic asshole warmonger with a chip on his shoulder so it actually fits well.

Definitely, but not that of a directly underhanded schemer, like you've made him appear. He was evil, but a pretty strict Lawful Evil - his rules were always his rules. I suppose if you were to really twist things, you could even say that it makes sense he'd distinguish between Theramore and the Druid school because the latter had Horde members present who didn't go against him or his plans and the former was still a target they were at least already going after.