I think mythic plus would work better if it didn't reward gear.

[sam86]

At high rating everyone is geared equally well, so there goes your assumption and if you think that pvp is "only about using a few more abilities" then you never actually pvp'd at middle to high ratings.

usually at high rating it goes more fotm, but SL pvp is healthiest I ever saw in wow history and actually has every class (not every spec, but almost all classes, i think only DH i don't see in tournament)
But his word is 100% accurate in WoD, the worst pvp era ever in wow history, pure humans + dwarf shaman or nelf druid
So unless u talk about SL specifically, in general his word is true, pvp is first gear than ur class/spec is fotm, in Cata for example frost mage was pvr : player vs raid (of non mages of course), then druid cat, then warrior arms, the hierarchy was clear as sun and forget beating even half decent mage 1v1 no matter who u are

Does skill matter in pvp? Right now seems finally and actually and really yes, the first exp where it seems skill is most important, was it always? Egypt no (because egypt is currently worse than hell), just 3 exp ago it was gear then class then way down skill, with classes like paladin and priest non existing in any spec

[Zyky]

Know that is a bit of a shocking title but let me explain my thought process. Currently in mythic plus I think everyone can agree there is a major stagnation problem once players have an established group running 15 keys. Trying to get a group between 10-13 is like pulling teeth for new players.

A simple solution to this would be to make only normal mode queueable then buffing a heroic to mythic 7 difficulty and rewarding appropriate ilv then in turn buffing a mythic 0 to a mythic 15 and letting it drop relevant rewards.

My reasoning behind this being that if you squish the possible levels down between difficulties you would heavily cut down the "dead keys" that are created in the weird inbetween no one seems to want to do.

I would still have keys scale past that new mythic 0 difficulty for additional power rewards but I feel there is to much of a spread for the progression part of keys.

So we already had this sort of system, it was called Challenge Mode, it wasn't very successful and everyone just bought their clears. I do agree there is a problem with M+, but it's not that it awards gear.

[Crimson Spears]

If this is actually serious, this is so insanely detached from reality I don't even know where to start.

What part of it? That would be a good place to start. I don't see mythic+ being a positive avenue to gearing. CM seems the superior form of it.

[kenn9530]

So we already had this sort of system, it was called Challenge Mode, it wasn't very successful and everyone just bought their clears. I do agree there is a problem with M+, but it's not that it awards gear.

What are you on about CM was not very successful, it was one of the best systems in place WoW has ever had, you were unable to overgear it, CMs should be available in combination with M+, one of the main reasons MoP was so good was because of CMs as they were relevant through the whole expansion.

While transmog rewards are good its always good to have a few other rewards, once you obtain the rewards you no longer might want to do that content unless your doing it on another char or using is to make gold.

[munkeyinorbit]

I can't believe there are actually people out there that believe scripted content is harder than facing actual human beings who adapt, form strategies, play mind-games and learn. Incredible.

This here is where you are mistaken. History has shown that the vast majority of players don't learn from their mistakes, don't adapt to situations, and don't form strategies. Compare the average person to average scripted content and you can easily see why raiding is harder. Glad vs mythic raiding? Yeah. PvP is prob harder because once mythic raiding is solved for a raid it's very easy.

[Crimson Spears]

So we already had this sort of system, it was called Challenge Mode, it wasn't very successful and everyone just bought their clears. I do agree there is a problem with M+, but it's not that it awards gear.

It was actually very successful... yes it was sold a lot but then so is mythic+

- - - Updated - - -

This here is where you are mistaken. History has shown that the vast majority of players don't learn from their mistakes, don't adapt to situations, and don't form strategies. Compare the average person to average scripted content and you can easily see why raiding is harder. Glad vs mythic raiding? Yeah. PvP is prob harder because once mythic raiding is solved for a raid it's very easy.

PvP glad is weirdly tied to how many people are pvping at the moment. This season it wasn't all that hard to hit glad. When the season is less popular its harder.

[Lurker1]

this + wf/tf

I miss that would have stayed for the 2 years easy becasue its gone i only played for 2 months at max level oh well was fun but time to move on.

[Ogarash]

Know that is a bit of a shocking title but let me explain my thought process. Currently in mythic plus I think everyone can agree there is a major stagnation problem once players have an established group running 15 keys. Trying to get a group between 10-13 is like pulling teeth for new players.

A simple solution to this would be to make only normal mode queueable then buffing a heroic to mythic 7 difficulty and rewarding appropriate ilv then in turn buffing a mythic 0 to a mythic 15 and letting it drop relevant rewards.

My reasoning behind this being that if you squish the possible levels down between difficulties you would heavily cut down the "dead keys" that are created in the weird inbetween no one seems to want to do.

I would still have keys scale past that new mythic 0 difficulty for additional power rewards but I feel there is to much of a spread for the progression part of keys.

They already tried this. It was basically the first iteration of what now is M+ and that was the challenge modes they had in MoP and WoD, where you had to do the whole thing, got no gear aside from the low lvl gear that the stuff was locked to anyway but could win some amazing cosmetic gear.

All this did was cater to the elite that wanted to push themselves. M+ serves a far wider audience.

[Crimson Spears]

They already tried this. It was basically the first iteration of what now is M+ and that was the challenge modes they had in MoP and WoD, where you had to do the whole thing, got no gear aside from the low lvl gear that the stuff was locked to anyway but could win some amazing cosmetic gear.

All this did was cater to the elite that wanted to push themselves. M+ serves a far wider audience.

I don't think it does otherwise 8-13 wouldnt be a barren waste land.

[dacoolist]

Might aswell remove all loot from everywhere or just play gw2.


Just look what happened when blizz added challenge mode that rewarded only cosmetics and no gear, people done it once and then forgot about it. The only people who ran it more than once were boosters.

This right here is absolutely how like 10000% of everyone I know feels. Chatting IRL about it with friends on voice - people saying M+ shouldn't give loot are the same people mad that mythic raid gives better loot than LFR

[schwarzkopf]

The M+ loot comes from vault tho?

Vault gear comes from the vault, M+ gear comes from M+, raid gear comes from raid, PvP gear comes from PvP etc etc.

[Th3Scourge]

It should never be upgradeable to mythic level as its just way too easy content, even PvP at the highest rating shouldnt reward mythic raiding level loot.

Mythic raiding should be the only way to get the highest level gear, anything else shouldnt reward anything higher than heroic raid level loot.

Simple.. Require a +20 KSM achievement to upgrade to mythic quality, or a bracket system since blizzard is implementing it's own r.io score

[Accendor]

Know that is a bit of a shocking title but let me explain my thought process. Currently in mythic plus I think everyone can agree there is a major stagnation problem once players have an established group running 15 keys. Trying to get a group between 10-13 is like pulling teeth for new players.

A simple solution to this would be to make only normal mode queueable then buffing a heroic to mythic 7 difficulty and rewarding appropriate ilv then in turn buffing a mythic 0 to a mythic 15 and letting it drop relevant rewards.

My reasoning behind this being that if you squish the possible levels down between difficulties you would heavily cut down the "dead keys" that are created in the weird inbetween no one seems to want to do.

I would still have keys scale past that new mythic 0 difficulty for additional power rewards but I feel there is to much of a spread for the progression part of keys.

The thing is that they (basically) had this with Challenge Modes in WoD. Very challenging content that only rewarded cosmetics (and only if you did all of them!).
Some people liked them very much, but for the vast majority it was a colossal failure. Basically nobody did them and that was during an expansion where you literally had nothing to do for 90% of the time.

If you want people to play and enjoy a certain form of content, you need to give them either power progression or REALLY unique and cool things, that are also limited in availabilty (see mage tower).
And yes, getting a reward is part of the experience and saying "but if its cool content you do it without a reward" is ignoring this fact and therefore wrong.

[Zyky]

It was actually very successful... yes it was sold a lot but then so is mythic+

It wasn't successful, it had zero replayability outside of selling them. There's a reason they were removed and replaced.

[Miyagie]

Protip: ignore m+ completely. You will enjoy the game so much more that way.

As a blood dk player i just get ignored...

[Tziva]

Hard disagree.

Remove rewards from m+ and you'll have drastically less participation in it. Even if one doesn't care about loot personally, this will still have a terrible effect because making groups or finding appealing keys will be much harder for everyone due to reduced participation. Likely the only segment of the population that wouldn't be negatively impacted by this idea are the people pushing very high keys and already have all the gear they can get, and this is just a tiny tiny percentage of the playerbase.

It also removes an entire avenue of character progression for people that don't have time to raid or don't enjoy pvp. Character progression is everything in RPGs, so more of options is always better than less. M+ is the only end game many people participate in.

I also disagree with the premise that the sub-13 key range is a "wasteland." I've PuGed tons of these to gear up alts (about 20 just this week alone), and just looking in the group finder now I can see dozens of them, so I think the entire foundation of this argument if faulty. The vibe in this key range is different than you find in higher keys but there's still plenty of players and plenty of keys. It is absolutely an active key range.

[Crimson Spears]

Hard disagree.

Remove rewards from m+ and you'll have drastically less participation in it. Even if one doesn't care about loot personally, this will still have a terrible effect because making groups or finding appealing keys will be much harder for everyone due to reduced participation. Likely the only segment of the population that wouldn't be negatively impacted by this idea are the people pushing very high keys and already have all the gear they can get, and this is just a tiny tiny percentage of the playerbase.

It also removes an entire avenue of character progression for people that don't have time to raid or don't enjoy pvp. Character progression is everything in RPGs, so more of options is always better than less. M+ is the only end game many people participate in.

I also disagree with the premise that the sub-13 key range is a "wasteland." I've PuGed tons of these to gear up alts (about 20 just this week alone), and just looking in the group finder now I can see dozens of them, so I think the entire foundation of this argument if faulty. The vibe in this key range is different than you find in higher keys but there's still plenty of players and plenty of keys. It is absolutely an active key range.

I guess it could just be off hours but I've not seen this enthusiasm for those key levels. It took me about 45mins to put together a group that was clearly shaky for it and proceeded to fall apart within seconds of pulling.

I've leveled a fresh toon and have started the grind from 0 and I can tell you now a dead key (NW/SD) isn't going to get filled in anything resembling a timely manner and far less likely to be filled with people who have a hope in hell of clearing it.

[Stickiler]

a dead key (NW/SD) isn't going to get filled in anything resembling a timely manner and far less likely to be filled with people who have a hope in hell of clearing it.

This has nothing to do with your "solution" in the OP though. It's just a side effect of certain dungeons being harder or more annoying to complete, and Blizz not offering a way to re-roll or downgrade your key easily on your own.

[Thunderball]

Would it be better? Yeah. But that's because everyone who's playing to gear up would leave. Which also means you wont have anyone to play with mostly.

[Viikkis]

I don't personally like mythic+ but if you take away the loot nobody will play it.