I really miss Warforge and Titanforge gear

[anon5123]

Ah yes, I too love running the same content 100+ times for a tiny chance at a titanforge upgrade. I love it when I get a piece of loot but it's a downgrade because it didn't titanforge. Nothing is more satisfying than having to use an item with worse secondary stats because it titanforged and has more main stat on it.

[meroko]

you could get a piece right at the start of a season that you couldn't replace for the rest of the season... how is that good?

let's be honest, that was extremely rare...and it's not like it lasted the entire expansion

[last1214]

I liked it in MoP/WoD, hated it in Legion/BFA.

[deenman]

It was fine but it was worse, never feels good to get Mythic Archimonde Sword and it's not Warforged. I prefer the way gearing works now and pre thunderforge, you have an end goal.

how about this,you have to have goten the base item first and the second time it drops for you,its wf?

[Aggressive]

I was never against WF/TF gear and I never understood the issue as long as TF had a cap on it to avoid it being too unbalanced and crazy. I think a hard cap of +5 or +10 for warforge and just having titanforge only give +15 would have worked.

I know people thought it wasn't fair for a Normal/Heroic raider to be as geared as a Mythic Raider but I think this argument lacked the context of in order for that to happen, more than likely the Normal/Heroic raider ended up playing WoW and clearing content WAY WAY WAY more than the mythic raider. In that case, their persistence and hardwork should be rewarded. If the mythic raider put in the same amount of time then they would almost always have a higher ilvl than the normal joe.

Also, it incentivized doing more Normal pug runs or AOTC pug runs. Basically, it provided a way to get an off chance ilvl increase for running content your character didn't need loot from. I liked doing that for the off chance at gear. It was nice when it happened.

I know of all the downsides of never really having BiS then and other cons against WF/TF but I believe the positive outweighed the negative.

There is a lot of things I miss from this game. Titanforge is one of them, Reforging is another one, Group travel. This is only to name a few. To be honest everything that was fun in this game is ALWAYS being removed. Especially at the behest of the elistist and/or casuals in some cases. No matter was is introduced in the game, a certain group of people will want it removed.

#1 thing in this game.....YOU CAN'T MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY.
#2 thing in the game......WHINERS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS WIN......PERIOD.

[DazManianDevil]

I thought so too but I felt like I turned into "great, I got an [upgrade] but I can't actually equip it until I spend many hours farming"

You mean Azerite in 8.1?
*Le me, first time in a mythic raid, shoulders drop. Can't use a single trait until I grind AP for a week :3 *

[ellieg]

You mean Azerite in 8.1?
*Le me, first time in a mythic raid, shoulders drop. Can't use a single trait until I grind AP for a week :3 *

Lol I quit in 8.1 and didn't come back until 2 weeks after release of shadowlands
This was a major reason. Hated azerite

[JacobMarley]

how many people do you think have all the gear? Sire Denathrius/SLG drops 233 + weapon and off-hand. It is less likely to complete your gear now than it was with TF. I'm not even full 226 now besides having played since launch and only time I did not have 226 choice was first m+ week.

For the moment I've reached gear cap on my Main for PVP for the rating I play at. I am happy with that. I can play alts without worrying about falling behind. I can play my main to do the things I enjoy whenever I want. I'm not forced to spam the same content over and over for a lucky WF/TF. That's how WoW has worked since day 1 until the dreaded dark days, that's how every MMO anywhere also works.

WF/TF is absolutely toxic for an MMORPG. I know that it's typical for players to look back with rose tinted specs at everything in the past but my god WF/TF was so bad at the time, so many people hated it I never thought I'd see this debate.

I remember blizz saying at Blizzcon their philosophy for SL was "Let gear be gear - No Azerite Power, No Titanforging" and the crowd went bonkers.

[froschhure]

For the moment I've reached gear cap on my Main for PVP for the rating I play at. I am happy with that. I can play alts without worrying about falling behind. I can play my main to do the things I enjoy whenever I want. I'm not forced to spam the same content over and over for a lucky WF/TF. That's how WoW has worked since day 1 until the dreaded dark days, that's how every MMO anywhere also works.

WF/TF is absolutely toxic for an MMORPG. I know that it's typical for players to look back with rose tinted specs at everything in the past but my god WF/TF was so bad at the time, so many people hated it I never thought I'd see this debate.

I remember blizz saying at Blizzcon their philosophy for SL was "Let gear be gear - No Azerite Power, No Titanforging" and the crowd went bonkers.

wf/tf is optional. You alone are making it mandatory. Accept your drop and stop hating other drops.

[erifwodahs]

For the moment I've reached gear cap on my Main for PVP for the rating I play at. I am happy with that. I can play alts without worrying about falling behind. I can play my main to do the things I enjoy whenever I want. I'm not forced to spam the same content over and over for a lucky WF/TF. That's how WoW has worked since day 1 until the dreaded dark days, that's how every MMO anywhere also works.

WF/TF is absolutely toxic for an MMORPG. I know that it's typical for players to look back with rose tinted specs at everything in the past but my god WF/TF was so bad at the time, so many people hated it I never thought I'd see this debate.

I remember blizz saying at Blizzcon their philosophy for SL was "Let gear be gear - No Azerite Power, No Titanforging" and the crowd went bonkers.

I have been playing since launch. I am doing 20s-21s in my 224 gear while 5 of my items still need "a lucky vault". And this patch has been very long too, so I don't know about people having their "BiS" - it's certainly not "regular". PvP gearing in SL is most convenient gearing system so good for them, but if we don't have similar thing in M+ where we can upgrade into ilvl cap - TF gave you a CHANCE at upgrade besides that weekly chest for M+ players. And don't bring the "rose tinted" argument BfA with TF was a yea ago. Vault is good, but one upgrade a week sucks - if they made it where you get 226 drops for high keys - sure, screw TF, but until that is the case, TF is way better than nothing.

[Accendor]

I was never against WF/TF gear and I never understood the issue as long as TF had a cap on it to avoid it being too unbalanced and crazy. I think a hard cap of +5 or +10 for warforge and just having titanforge only give +15 would have worked.

I know people thought it wasn't fair for a Normal/Heroic raider to be as geared as a Mythic Raider but I think this argument lacked the context of in order for that to happen, more than likely the Normal/Heroic raider ended up playing WoW and clearing content WAY WAY WAY more than the mythic raider. In that case, their persistence and hardwork should be rewarded. If the mythic raider put in the same amount of time then they would almost always have a higher ilvl than the normal joe.

Also, it incentivized doing more Normal pug runs or AOTC pug runs. Basically, it provided a way to get an off chance ilvl increase for running content your character didn't need loot from. I liked doing that for the off chance at gear. It was nice when it happened.

I know of all the downsides of never really having BiS then and other cons against WF/TF but I believe the positive outweighed the negative.

A cap would have made the whole system pointless

[Tikishock]

A cap would have made the whole system pointless

I disagree but maybe I'm not thinking about it correctly. Not sure that it would be pointless but theoretically there would be a point in which you get all max TF BiS but the odds of that happening would be pretty slim I imagine.

- - - Updated - - -

For the moment I've reached gear cap on my Main for PVP for the rating I play at. I am happy with that. I can play alts without worrying about falling behind. I can play my main to do the things I enjoy whenever I want. I'm not forced to spam the same content over and over for a lucky WF/TF. That's how WoW has worked since day 1 until the dreaded dark days, that's how every MMO anywhere also works.

WF/TF is absolutely toxic for an MMORPG. I know that it's typical for players to look back with rose tinted specs at everything in the past but my god WF/TF was so bad at the time, so many people hated it I never thought I'd see this debate.

I remember blizz saying at Blizzcon their philosophy for SL was "Let gear be gear - No Azerite Power, No Titanforging" and the crowd went bonkers.

I can see your point of view for sure. However, we play the game differently and that is probably why we have different views on Wf/TF. I would prefer to play my main than play alt characters. I've never been into alt characters and much prefer to focus on my main which is probably why I liked the idea of WF/TF because then I could continue to "progress" my character with a bit of luck doing content I've already outleveled such as Normal PUG runs when I already also clear Heroic with my guild.

[Accendor]

[QUOTE=Tikishock;53166958]I disagree but maybe I'm not thinking about it correctly. Not sure that it would be pointless but theoretically there would be a point in which you get all max TF BiS but the odds of that happening would be pretty slim I imagine.

- - - Updated - - -
/QUOTE]

The thing is that if it includes a cap (e.g. 15 level), it would still not broaden the available content (even if its repetitive) for people who normally do the higher difficulty.
Let me put it his way:

Normal: 200 (max wf 215)
Heroic: 213 (max wf 228)
Mythic: 226 (max wf 241)

This means heroic players would still have no motivation to do normal and mythic players no reason to do heroic. The benefit still way too small.
Those players deserve a good reward mechanism exactly as much as players who keep to a lower difficulty.
The model above the only people who would really profit from it are the normal players.

The system was completely fine as it was.

[Tikishock]

[QUOTE=Accendor;53167590]

I disagree but maybe I'm not thinking about it correctly. Not sure that it would be pointless but theoretically there would be a point in which you get all max TF BiS but the odds of that happening would be pretty slim I imagine.

- - - Updated - - -
/QUOTE]

The thing is that if it includes a cap (e.g. 15 level), it would still not broaden the available content (even if its repetitive) for people who normally do the higher difficulty.
Let me put it his way:

Normal: 200 (max wf 215)
Heroic: 213 (max wf 228)
Mythic: 226 (max wf 241)

This means heroic players would still have no motivation to do normal and mythic players no reason to do heroic. The benefit still way too small.
Those players deserve a good reward mechanism exactly as much as players who keep to a lower difficulty.
The model above the only people who would really profit from it are the normal players.

The system was completely fine as it was.

Oh I see! Thank you for explaining it in more detail--appreciate it

[DeathKnightRum]

I was never against WF/TF gear and I never understood the issue as long as TF had a cap on it to avoid it being too unbalanced and crazy. I think a hard cap of +5 or +10 for warforge and just having titanforge only give +15 would have worked.

I know people thought it wasn't fair for a Normal/Heroic raider to be as geared as a Mythic Raider but I think this argument lacked the context of in order for that to happen, more than likely the Normal/Heroic raider ended up playing WoW and clearing content WAY WAY WAY more than the mythic raider. In that case, their persistence and hardwork should be rewarded. If the mythic raider put in the same amount of time then they would almost always have a higher ilvl than the normal joe.

Also, it incentivized doing more Normal pug runs or AOTC pug runs. Basically, it provided a way to get an off chance ilvl increase for running content your character didn't need loot from. I liked doing that for the off chance at gear. It was nice when it happened.

I know of all the downsides of never really having BiS then and other cons against WF/TF but I believe the positive outweighed the negative.

Warforging only existed to give 25 man guilds a one up reward vs ten man guilds when that split existed. When they merged to 20 man mythic mode I have no idea how that turned into oh things can be 20 levels higher or whatever the heck they made it

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I think the problem, well at least for me, was it was layers upon layers upon layers of RNG.

-First RNG: Does it drop
-Do you get it
-Does it warforge
-Does it titanforge
-Does it warforge with a socket
-Does it titanforge with a socket
-Does it warforge with a t-stat
-Does it warforge with a t-stat and a socket
-Does it titan forget with a t-stat
-Does it titanforge with a t-stat and a socket

So it became this huge wtf. How they went about it was wrong in my opinion. Sockets.. make items have sockets or not be fixed. I mean you got a full profession based around that shit so make it workable and fixed on gear like it used to be. Boom layer of that RNG shit sandwich is gone. Warforge and Titanforge was probably to much. I got no problem with just a warforge because it was a nice bonus but wasn't LFR becoming damn near mythic levels of shit. T-stats aren't that huge and mostly just "fun" unless you get insane stacking going so let it RNG for whatever.

[kaminaris]

I think the problem, well at least for me, was it was layers upon layers upon layers of RNG.

-First RNG: Does it drop
-Do you get it
-Does it warforge
-Does it titanforge
-Does it warforge with a socket
-Does it titanforge with a socket
-Does it warforge with a t-stat
-Does it warforge with a t-stat and a socket
-Does it titan forget with a t-stat
-Does it titanforge with a t-stat and a socket

So it became this huge wtf. How they went about it was wrong in my opinion. Sockets.. make items have sockets or not be fixed. I mean you got a full profession based around that shit so make it workable and fixed on gear like it used to be. Boom layer of that RNG shit sandwich is gone. Warforge and Titanforge was probably to much. I got no problem with just a warforge because it was a nice bonus but wasn't LFR becoming damn near mythic levels of shit. T-stats aren't that huge and mostly just "fun" unless you get insane stacking going so let it RNG for whatever.

There is no layer upon layers of rng.

There is only one singular output outisde of gear drop.

It's like saying dice have 6 layers of rng

-Did it roll 1?
-Did it roll 2?
-Did it roll 3?
-Did it roll 4?
-Did it roll 5?
-Did it roll 6?

No, the outcome can only be one. Gear that has static numerical value boosting your output. Since all wow gear is templated, everything can be turned into number
Tertriary/socket/forging can be translated into singular number = delta dps/hps. Last remaining pieces of gear that are non-numerical are trinkets - tho lots of them still can be boring.

Another layer of rng would be IF you could get like 2 pieces of gear instead of 1. That is a layer. The above is just illusion.

From the outcome perspective it just one layer -> Did i get something that is upgrade for me? Which has always been the case.

What TF did was to turn the binary output into more fluid number. And yes I also miss it

[Jotaux]

I got no problem with just a warforge because it was a nice bonus but wasn't LFR becoming damn near mythic levels of shit.

At one point my Druid had LFR, Heroic, and mythic versions of the max ilvl Tier pants in Antorus.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

There is no layer upon layers of rng.

There is only one singular output outisde of gear drop.

It's like saying dice have 6 layers of rng

-Did it roll 1?
-Did it roll 2?
-Did it roll 3?
-Did it roll 4?
-Did it roll 5?
-Did it roll 6?

No, the outcome can only be one. Gear that has static numerical value boosting your output. Since all wow gear is templated, everything can be turned into number
Tertriary/socket/forging can be translated into singular number = delta dps/hps. Last remaining pieces of gear that are non-numerical are trinkets - tho lots of them still can be boring.

Another layer of rng would be IF you could get like 2 pieces of gear instead of 1. That is a layer. The above is just illusion.

From the outcome perspective it just one layer -> Did i get something that is upgrade for me? Which has always been the case.

What TF did was to turn the binary output into more fluid number. And yes I also miss it

Minus the fact dice have really an equal chance to fall on all sides. This was not the case here.

[kaminaris]

Minus the fact dice have really an equal chance to fall on all sides. This was not the case here.

That is not a layer, its just a probability. Think of it as a cheat dice that is heavier on the 6 side.

In the end probability is the same simply because TF made output fluid.
With static gear you had X% chance to get delta dps <= 0 (not upgrade) and Y% chance to get delta dps > 0. With TF you had a fluid chance to numbers ranging from -2% to up to 2%. Ex. [-2%, -1.8%, -1.2%, -1.1%, -0.3%, 0%, +0.4%, +0.8%, +1.2%, +1.8%]. However because of this, there was non zero probability to get upgrades from places you wouldn't expect it to. In reality all it did was smoother the gear progression.

I liked TF even tho the very root cause of gearing problem is that gear is simply braindead.