Do you sympathize with Maiev Shadowsong or Illidan Stormrage more? Who is better?

[darkoms]

We. Literally. Fucking. Went. Through. This.

He's. NOT. A. FUCKING. CHOSEN. ONE!!!!!

HELL, LEGION PORTRAYS HIM AS A DOUCHEBAG LMAOODFISAJURLK

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Not to be rude, but Illidan straight up fucking says VERBATIM "THERE CAN BE NO CHOSEN ONE!"

HE, KHADGAR, THE PLAYERS, AND VELEN WERE LITERALLY THE GUYS DOING MOST OF THE WORK ANYWAY! Oh, and did I mention the Army of the Light, the Void, and the situation on Argus? Him being the Jailer of Sargeras is the perfect end for his Arc. He did his goals, he said his farewells, etc. Hell, I'd argue we're more of "chosen ones" than he is.

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And the Players are a collective. Not a singularity.

Pls stop write like this. It's realy hard to read, dude

Infracted.

[Rexosaurus]

If the part of that book where Maiev turns into a ultra-nationalist racist that murders people is still canon, then I suppose that I'd have to go with Illidan by default.

But if that's no longer the case*, then I actually quite like Maiev as a character. She's still a little one-track minded/conservative for my tastes, but she has always placed her duty above her personal desires, even after she's been snubbed/shafted pretty consistently. Gotta respect that. It was messed up that she lied about Tyrande and left her for dead in TFT, but tbh, Tyrande did also murder a bunch of Maiev's Watchers just to set Illidan free, so I'm kind of ambivalent about that choice.

I do like that Illidan is more than willing to break tradition when it gets in the way, and the lusting for power thing fits him well. But between his unquenchable thirst for Tyrande and the fact that he's done some pretty messed up stuff, he's just generally unlikable to me. It's honestly a little ironic imo since it seems like Blizzard really wants you to sympathize with him and they often do their best to make Maiev seem like a total bish.

*I don't recall it ever being mentioned in-game, and further to the point, Maiev is still the leader of the Watchers/Wardens at the start of Legion. So it seems to me like they just totally forgot/glossed over that whole thing?

[TheFirstOnes]

Pls stop write like this. It's realy hard to read, dude

Infracted.

It’s not hard to read man.

[Varitok]

Are we all just going to ignore the fact that Illidan opened a portal to the most powerful demon army above our planet and got thousands killed for it all (Almost ending Azeroth as we know it) to supposedly "force the hand of fate" while at the same time rejecting the fate that the Naaru tried to push on him.

This dude has always been whacko and even if Maiev is obsessed, Illidan also tried to fucking kill us all twice but it's okay because it worked out in the end?

[Skorpionss]

I never could sympathize with Maiev and her wardens ever since they were introduced... Like you have the leader of your people coming and telling you to release the prisoner cause he's the only hope you have of defeating the legion, and you think attacking said leader is a wise choice, and then you are shocked when said leader slaughters everyone for insubordination...

[geco]

*I don't recall it ever being mentioned in-game, and further to the point, Maiev is still the leader of the Watchers/Wardens at the start of Legion. So it seems to me like they just totally forgot/glossed over that whole thing?

It's almost something like that.

Maiev: sorry for trying to kill you in that ...
Jarold: Nevermind it's a Horrible Novel and we're all ignorant of it.

It's like what happened. But Maiev was either possessed or she was delirious very strongly. That if we take into account how pro trauma attacks work. It would be some of that.

In summary. It seems that it happened and Maiev feels guilty about it. But the others seem to not care about me and in Jarold's case he thinks I failed him as a brother.

Edit

Are we all just going to ignore the fact that Illidan opened a portal to the most powerful demon army above our planet and got thousands killed for it all (Almost ending Azeroth as we know it) to supposedly "force the hand of fate" while at the same time rejecting the fate that the Naaru tried to push on him.

This dude has always been whacko and even if Maiev is obsessed, Illidan also tried to fucking kill us all twice but it's okay because it worked out in the end?

That is the real difference between the two.
Maiev is going to sacrifice everything he has to get his goals.
Illidian will sacrifice everyone else to achieve his goals.

In short, Maiev would never force you to fight.

[OwenBurton]

It's almost something like that.

Maiev: sorry for trying to kill you in that ...
Jarold: Nevermind it's a Horrible Novel and we're all ignorant of it.

It's like what happened. But Maiev was either possessed or she was delirious very strongly. That if we take into account how pro trauma attacks work. It would be some of that.

In summary. It seems that it happened and Maiev feels guilty about it. But the others seem to not care about me and in Jarold's case he thinks I failed him as a brother.

Edit


That is the real difference between the two.
Maiev is going to sacrifice everything he has to get his goals.
Illidian will sacrifice everyone else to achieve his goals.

In short, Maiev would never force you to fight.

Maiev likely reconciled with Tyrande and Malfurion before Legion - they were aware she was on the Broken Isles - and her Wardens went to Draenor with the Shadow Wardens who Malfurion assisted at Mount Hyjal, implying that Maiev might have tried to make amends even before the expansion, she even worked with Khadgar, an Alliance character (at least at the time), at the Tomb of Sargeras.

Tyrande after the Fourth War: "I must ignore Anduin and kill almost everyone who ever hurt my people."
Shandris after the Fourth War: "I must support Anduin and forgive almost everyone who ever hurt my people."

If not for Tyrande's recent...change, Maiev would have been an ideal middle ground between the two extremes.

From the scenario in Darkshore, Maiev has a much higher health bar than Shandris or the other night elves and NPCs (except Tyrande and Malfurion):
Maiev Shadowsong: Almost 11 million HP

Shandris Feathermoon: 650.4k HP

Average player (during the scenario): 110-120k HP

Only these two NPCs in the scenario surpass her:
Tyrande Whisperwind: 52.03 million HP

And Malfurion Stormrage: 21.68 million HP

[geco]

Maiev likely reconciled with Tyrande and Malfurion before Legion - they were aware she was on the Broken Isles - and her Wardens went to Draenor with the Shadow Wardens who Malfurion assisted at Mount Hyjal, implying that Maiev might have tried to make amends even before the expansion, she even worked with Khadgar, an Alliance character (at least at the time), at the Tomb of Sargeras.

There are two things out there that I don't believe.
1 Maiev and Tyrande make the passes at BFA because of what they show us. So not before they didn't make amends.
PS: If we hadn't spent 3 sonas on Jaina and humans. We could use some so that this reconsiliation is more than 3 lines.

2 The Shadow Warden seem not to exist. The Shadow Wardens were Jarold's Wardens. But all of that seems to have been scrapped. Now the Shdaow Wardens are simply Wardens.
For example Sira is from the "Shadow Wardens" but it seems that at the same time she was always the second in command of Maiev.

[OwenBurton]

There are two things out there that I don't believe.
1 Maiev and Tyrande make the passes at BFA because of what they show us. So not before they didn't make amends.
PS: If we hadn't spent 3 sonas on Jaina and humans. We could use some so that this reconsiliation is more than 3 lines.

2 The Shadow Warden seem not to exist. The Shadow Wardens were Jarold's Wardens. But all of that seems to have been scrapped. Now the Shdaow Wardens are simply Wardens.
For example Sira is from the "Shadow Wardens" but it seems that at the same time she was always the second in command of Maiev.

There could be separate Warden groups; the "Watchers" seem to be the organization's oldest name; "Wardens" seem to be a specialized class like demon hunter or priestess of the moon, or else the title given to the most skilled and dedicated members of the Watchers, perhaps from among the oldest and most experienced founding members. Most of the Watchers AND Wardens are apparently dead anyway - so such a distinction matters little, as the survivors have likely all banded together after Teldrassil, possibly under Maiev and Jarod's combined leadership, in any case.

Again, I was very surprised Maiev and her Wardens returned - given the vague "neutrality" of most of the Broken Isles groups, I assumed that they would just generally quietly fade into the background and not be heard of again for at least several expansions - it actually kept the story very interesting.

There are likely separate branches of the Watchers / Wardens, one based at Teldrassil, Maiev's most loyal and devoted bodyguards, for example, which Jarod tried to reorganized and take over; another more neutral and isolated group based at Mount Hyjal at the Barrow Dens; and another at Azsuna at the Vault of the Wardens, watching over their most dangerous prisoners, somewhat loosely affiliated, perhaps with similar abilities and backgrounds, yet separate enough to have avoided the consequences for what happened at Teldrassil, but close enough to work together (such as in Draenor or in the Broken Isles) when absolutely necessary in an emergency.

They have been nearly massacred and wiped out at least five times thus far:

1. Tyrande killed lots of them when she freed Illidan.
2. Illidan killed lots of them at the Tomb of Sargeras.
3. He killed most of them again in Outland after capturing Maiev.
4. The Legion killed most of them after capturing the Vault of the Wardens.
5. At least some of the Wardens were killed and raised by Sylvanas before the Battle for Darkshore.

I am very surprised the Watchers / Wardens have ANY members remaining - unless they are actively recruiting from the night elves perhaps?

[geco]

There could be separate Warden groups; the "Watchers" seem to be the organization's oldest name; "Wardens" seem to be a specialized class like demon hunter or priestess of the moon, or else the title given to the most skilled and dedicated members of the Watchers, perhaps from among the oldest and most experienced founding members. Most of the Watchers AND Wardens are apparently dead anyway - so such a distinction matters little, as the survivors have likely all banded together after Teldrassil, possibly under Maiev and Jarod's combined leadership, in any case.

Again, I was very surprised Maiev and her Wardens returned - given the vague "neutrality" of most of the Broken Isles groups, I assumed that they would just generally quietly fade into the background and not be heard of again for at least several expansions - it actually kept the story very interesting.

There are likely separate branches of the Watchers / Wardens, one based at Teldrassil, Maiev's most loyal and devoted bodyguards, for example, which Jarod tried to reorganized and take over; another more neutral and isolated group based at Mount Hyjal at the Barrow Dens; and another at Azsuna at the Vault of the Wardens, watching over their most dangerous prisoners, somewhat loosely affiliated, perhaps with similar abilities and backgrounds, yet separate enough to have avoided the consequences for what happened at Teldrassil, but close enough to work together (such as in Draenor or in the Broken Isles) when absolutely necessary in an emergency.

They have been nearly massacred and wiped out at least five times thus far:

1. Tyrande killed lots of them when she freed Illidan.
2. Illidan killed lots of them at the Tomb of Sargeras.
3. He killed most of them again in Outland after capturing Maiev.
4. The Legion killed most of them after capturing the Vault of the Wardens.
5. At least some of the Wardens were killed and raised by Sylvanas before the Battle for Darkshore.

I am very surprised the Watchers / Wardens have ANY members remaining - unless they are actively recruiting from the night elves perhaps?

They are not several groups at the moment it is more if you look at the names they are the same watchers.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sira_Moonwarden
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Shalis_Darkhunter

On recruiting it is known that they do it at least shown in a novel. But on the other hand again if you follow the "names" there are also many that remain.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Mirana_Starlight

But by Maiev's way of acting I would estimate (here this 100% theory) in the first two events she would kill all the vigilantes except the wadens. Which were about 10.
Then in the other events "few wardens" died. About 10 at most for events. But since they are very united for them there are many losses.

[cocomen2]

Proud female or Insane stalker .... let me think.

[Ragedaug]

I find it rather the other way around. Maiev is slightly tunnel vision-ed and is never willing to give the benefit of doubt, or even listen. She lives for vengeance.
Illidan simply has no patience or time to explain what other would anyway refuse to understand, so he acts and then asks. Thus far, Illidan was right.. the whole time. I guess we will find out about his fate in the next expansion.

Pretty much this. Illidan's early story never made much sense to me. His motives were good and he did save Azeroth. So even if you want to argue he went about it the wrong way, that still doesn't seem to earn him an eternal prison sentence. So that was the part that didn't make sense.

[geco]

Pretty much this. Illidan's early story never made much sense to me. His motives were good and he did save Azeroth. So even if you want to argue he went about it the wrong way, that still doesn't seem to earn him an eternal prison sentence. So that was the part that didn't make sense.

He formally allied himself with the Legion. Revealing the rebel group's plans to save the world.
He then attacked and killed a member of the rebel group.

imagines if someone warned the Nazis about D-Day because he "had a better plan."
Or if a Greek warned the Trojans that the wooden horse was full of soldiers.

[Triceron]

Hmm. Not quite sure I find either character very sympathetic. They're both driven characters who will forsake others for their cause, so I don't find much sympathy in this kind of characterization.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Proud female or Insane stalker .... let me think.

Not sure why you're describing Illidan as a proud female, but whatever floats your boat.

[Triceron]

Pretty much this. Illidan's early story never made much sense to me. His motives were good and he did save Azeroth. So even if you want to argue he went about it the wrong way, that still doesn't seem to earn him an eternal prison sentence. So that was the part that didn't make sense.

The problem was he's Chaotic Good, and its his recklessness that forced Malfurion's decision to imprison him. The sentence itself may not be justified, but considering how much ambition Illidan had and how Azshara shook the entire world, Malfurion wasn't going to take the risk of allowing him to be free. I mean his first course of action was creating another Well of Eternity. And TFT pretty much doubled down on how dangerous he was when he tried to use the Eye of Sargeras to destroy the Frozen Throne, causing earthquakes that were felt all the way in Kalimdor.

[geco]

The problem was he's Chaotic Good, and its his lack of restraint and recklessness that forced Malfurion's decision to imprison him. The sentence itself may not be justified, but considering how much ambition Illidan had and how Azshara shook the entire world, Malfurion wasn't going to take the risk of allowing him to be free in the world. And TFT pretty much doubled down on how dangerous he was when he tried to use the Eye of Sargeras to destroy the Frozen Throne, causing earthquakes that were felt all the way in Kalimdor.

A "Good" According to D&D would not kill a third party to achieve its goal.
Illidian is between Chaotic and Evil Chaotic. That he wants to save the world.

[Triceron]

A "Good" According to D&D would not kill a third party to achieve its goal.
Illidian is between Chaotic and Evil Chaotic. That he wants to save the world.

Illidan is not a villain, he is an anti-hero. The only questionable time he could be viewed as a villain is TBC, and even then he'd be defined as Chaotic Neutral not Chaotic Evil. I'd consider TBC to be the outlier since they didn't really characterize him properly, and gave very little reason to consider him an actual threat to anything. The whole TBC story was a mess really since we really had no reason to go out there and stop him; Legion explained that thoroughly.

And doesn't that depend on what the third party is? In the context of Warcraft 3, he only fights Evil factions. I don't see how that changes an alignment since the goal of a Paladin is to destroy Evil; and that does involve killing. The whole Humans and Orcs story is built on warfare, killing.

[ro9ue]

I sympathized with Illidan more. For most of WC3 Maiev always felt somewhat one dimensional to me. I'm a guard following my orders trying to catch an escaped prisoner... and will do that blindly. Interesting duty bound characters need to have a moment where they have to question if what they're spending their life on is even worth it. They can decide it is, but you need to show at least some introspection there or they just seem like an annoying guard NPC in a video game chasing you across a map.

Or even if they don't question it or start to waiver, at least show a bit of backstory as to why they take their job that seriously and will do it until they die. Would've been cool if Maeiv had a family or daughter that died to a power-hungry Azshara and she just sees the same thing happening with Illidan so she projects all of that vengeance onto her motives.

Btw they helped her a bit later on in books and in game, but still overall Illidan had a stronger foundation... but then they completely trashed him in TBC....

I dunno.

[geco]

Illidan is not a villain, he is an anti-hero. The only questionable time he could be viewed as a villain is TBC, and even then he'd be defined as Chaotic Neutral not Chaotic Evil. I'd consider TBC to be the outlier since they didn't really characterize him properly, and gave very little reason to consider him an actual threat to anything. The whole TBC story was a mess really since we really had no reason to go out there and stop him; Legion explained that thoroughly.

And doesn't that depend on what the third party is? In the context of Warcraft 3, he only fights Evil factions. I don't see how that changes an alignment since the goal of a Paladin is to destroy Evil; and that does involve killing. The whole Humans and Orcs story is built on warfare, killing.

The D&D lineups. The good, bad and legal chaotic. It has nothing to do with being the Villain or the Hero.

In Maiev's novel they make it clear to you why Maiev is "good" on Illidian "bad" on the D&D chart.
When Maiev asks for help if you don't give it to her, she insults you.
When Illidian asks for your help if you don't give it to her she enslaves you or uses your soul as fuel.

At no time Illidian is not evil by D&D standards. That is if he varies from being the "Hero or the Villain" depending on whether or not we fight against the same enemy.

To give a clearer example. The Orc wants to kill the Paladin because for him the Paladin is bad. The Paladin wants to kill the Orc because for the Orc it is bad. None there is "evil".

Now if the Paladin reaches a village of say dwarves. He enslaves them and uses them as meat shields against the Orcs. There the paladin is Evil. Illidian usually does this.

PS: That he does "evil" things but for the common good (or so he sees it). It is what makes him an interesting character.