Article: The Great Push Mythic+ Tournament - Day 3

[Gorsameth]

Plagueborer, Fungulmancer stuff is normal use of in-game mechanics, bugging MD so that it is permanent to then allow a hunter to MD stuff to the tank from half the map away is clearly bug/exploit abuse and I am sad that Echo managed to win because of that abuse.

This certainly taints what was otherwise a seemingly successful tournament that was more fun to watch then the MDI.

[Lathspell]

Plagueborer, Fungulmancer stuff is normal use of in-game mechanics, bugging MD so that it is permanent to then allow a hunter to MD stuff to the tank from half the map away is clearly bug/exploit abuse and I am sad that Echo managed to win because of that abuse.

This certainly taints what was otherwise a seemingly successful tournament that was more fun to watch then the MDI.

They could have timed a +27 (And still won) with a conventional strategy probably if Blizz told them it's not ok to do their own strat. They didn't and everyone else was also permitted to use the same strat (but couldn't do it)

[Rageonit]

They could have timed a +27 (And still won) with a conventional strategy probably if Blizz told them it's not ok to do their own strat. They didn't and everyone else was also permitted to use the same strat (but couldn't do it)

What they could have done is pure speculation - we don't know. What we do know is that they have resorted to a cheesy (but inventive) strategy based on a bug. We also do know that the rules of TGP state quite clearly:

Players may not use known bugs or exploits in the Great Push Tournament matches, as determined by the Tournament administration. Intentional usage of bugs or exploits may result in a time penalty being applied to your run, forfeiture of that game/match, or other disciplinary action at Blizzard’s sole discretion.

We do not know why the administration would deem something clearly bugged as acceptable. During the stream, Naguura tried to explain that the trick involves the Plagueborers to flag the entire group in combat (and teleport to the tank when the hunter FDs), which supposedly turned out to be wrong. Is there a possibility the admins didn't know that, either?

[Ochinko]

As far as I have heard the Echo team did in fact contact the admins about their strat and got the go ahead. If they included the MD being bugged I dont know.

The ususal way to deal with such bugs is to ignore them for the rest of the tournament they popped up in and then forbid it for the next. So long its not a massive ridiculous exploit.

[Gorsameth]

As far as I have heard the Echo team did in fact contact the admins about their strat and got the go ahead. If they included the MD being bugged I dont know.

The ususal way to deal with such bugs is to ignore them for the rest of the tournament they popped up in and then forbid it for the next. So long its not a massive ridiculous exploit.

The problem with asking the TO if you can use an obvious exploit when the rules ban exploits is that everyone else still gets fucked because they read the rules and it clearly says no exploits, so they had no reason to ask if this exploit would be allowed.

And atm I see no reason to assume they actually asked Blizzard with a full explanation of what they were doing.
"Yo blizz, can we snap Plagueborers?" is very different from "hey can we cancel Misdirect to cause it to become permanent and with infinite range to then snap plagueborers to our tank?"

[GnomeEU]

Plagueborer, Fungulmancer stuff is normal use of in-game mechanics, bugging MD so that it is permanent to then allow a hunter to MD stuff to the tank from half the map away is clearly bug/exploit abuse and I am sad that Echo managed to win because of that abuse.

This certainly taints what was otherwise a seemingly successful tournament that was more fun to watch then the MDI.

Yup exactly. Plus one

[rrayy]

no one cares. everyone is patiently waiting for a far superior version of the game to rerelease in a few days.

will be interesting to see how long Blizz/Act keep making expansions and milking the dead cow that is retail, when they have more player interest in their old games.

Utterly false. Retail is still proiftable. When you look at the nubmers of the two, you can clearly see the more interest in retail, not classic.

[Cosmic Janitor]

The problem with asking the TO if you can use an obvious exploit when the rules ban exploits is that everyone else still gets fucked because they read the rules and it clearly says no exploits, so they had no reason to ask if this exploit would be allowed.

I generally agree with your stance and I frankly think such a call from the tournament administration was definitely bad, but if I parse the phrase in the rules correctly, then what is a known bug or exploit is solely up to them, isn't it? The wording itself already creates loopholes around what is a known bug or not, which is already questionable for a rule set. Again I don't think a syncing bug - in the UI no less - should ever be sanctioned by the people running a tournament, just that reading the rules the (bad) call was up to Blizzard, who should up their game next time.

Stuff like that should only ever be done in overtime rounds or during breaks for shits and giggles, not during a competition. Even if they could have done it properly (and easier), sadly we will never know now, which is always unsightly in competitions. Everyone involved should know better.

[bledgor]

Saw plagueborer strategy on Gingi's stream. Looks like another fun way of doing dungeon, so why kill it? Do you like all dungeon runs being identical and boring? Those cool strategies make dungeon fun to watch and add something to otherwise boring event.

If you think random pugs will start using that strategy, you are mistaken. It takes a lot of coordination and the only real benefit is on super high keys.

It takes a while to learn, but it isn't that hard to execute, not to mention if correct they were actually abusing the perma MD bug to get that. I also don't enjoy the plagueborer strat, it isn't particularly fun to do or watch in my opinion. Not to mention all strat are going to converge at the highest level, if this is left in EVERYONE will do this strat at high levels. That is how competition works, once one team figures out the best strat everyone will copy.

I didn't find one player basically being afk the entire dungeon as 2 tanks just sit there tanking so mobs could kill all their trash and bosses very interesting or engaging.

[DazManianDevil]

I think you're throwing two different things into the same pot.

A competitive mindset will always exist within a community, because people like to compare performance, improve, find new ways, this is the foundation of pretty much almost any game that's not completely based on narrative alone.

However, the question is whether you design your game that bends the knee to such competitive elements, sure you could design elements in your old school RPG manner, but that clashes horribly with something such as M+, Arena, you name it.
There is an interview with Rob Pardo from 2009 where he straight up said that Arena was a huge mistake and if he could go back, he would either rework classes completely or axe Arenas from TBC, simply because it creates such a constricting enviroment for the class designers.

There is a huge difference between player driven competitiveness and developer driven competitiveness.

That's quite possible that I did, I am prone to rambling.
That being said, if we look to something like Classic WoW and the player driven development of world buff meta, R14 bracket stacking etc, I'm still of the opinion that players have shaped how they approach gaming in general far beyond game design. Just ask any R14 player in Classic about how that community measures up to Arena.

At the end of the day, I don't have a good solution for the game being focused on casuals over try-hards. The game arguably reached this peak in Wrath, where badges got you not only good catch-up gear but also heirlooms and mounts.
My only suggestion would be, make Valor drop in Heroics/M0s and I think you could totally revitalize that area of the game. Hell, let us buy Augment runes with valor, I would happily derp around smashing heroics for hours with this system.
Even with the KSM gating for valor capping your gear, a casual player could run a few Mythic 0s and then upgrade those pieces after a while to a respectable level via Heroics.
This would allow players who hate M+ and can't raid above Normal to have a sense of progression, make world quests and xmog runs easier etc.
But, would that even solve any of our current problems? I'm no prophet.
How would you suggest Blizzard curb these design issues?

[korijenkins]

"This year has seen some of the most intense competitive World of Warcraft ever"

Lol, yeah dungeon runs are really intensely competitive.

[Nite92]

Plagueborer, Fungulmancer stuff is normal use of in-game mechanics, bugging MD so that it is permanent to then allow a hunter to MD stuff to the tank from half the map away is clearly bug/exploit abuse and I am sad that Echo managed to win because of that abuse.

This certainly taints what was otherwise a seemingly successful tournament that was more fun to watch then the MDI.

Snapping is an exploit? They only used in like every bfa mdi.

[Gorsameth]

Snapping is an exploit? They only used in like every bfa mdi.

You seem to have a problem with reading, try again.

[Walkerbo]

I'm so happy my character lost the ability to aoe everything around him for this bullshit.

This
/10 char

[Nite92]

You seem to have a problem with reading, try again.

It is still basically snapping. MD bugs were also used forever. Tol'Dagor cannons - here the Tricks did not run out when you entered one. DTBS entered the dungeon while in one of their time trials the got a boss out of the room so he wouldn't use mechanics. Ambition got a buff to get a DR for the start dungeon while abusing that this specific buff does not get removed on m+ start. I could go on. Echo did, what teams did before and got away with (in the MDI).