Sylvanas’ Culpability *spoilers*

[Clone]

snip

Looks like Baine is going to have defend another warchief in court again.

[deenman]

If that same someone caused the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents - mental health issues or not - I would want them to be given the death sentence.

Being mentally ill does not pardon you from committing crimes on that kind of scale.

jesus what a barbaric mentality....first off the death penalty itself is flawed,the innocence program has proven and aquited thausands of innocent death row people,so on that alone we shouldnt EVER have the death penatly because it will often end up in kiling innocent people

and secondly,the idea of prison is 2 fold:

-rehabilitation
-protecting society from dangerous individuals

the death penalty serves none of those 2 purposes,vengance should NEVER equate with justice

and to do it to a mentaly ill person is by far even worse

and yes,even if my wife/mother/daughter would be murdered i would think the same,because justice should never be handed out by grieving individuals who cant think rationaly

[Varx]

jesus what a barbaric mentality....first off the death penalty itself is flawed,the innocence program has proven and aquited thausands of innocent death row people,so on that alone we shouldnt EVER have the detah penatly because it will often end up in kiling innocent people

and secondly,the idea of prison is 2 fold:

-rehabilitation
-protecting society from dangerous individuals

the death penalty serves none of those 2 purposes,vengance should NEVER eqate with justice

and to do it to a mentaly ill person is by far even worse

and yes,even if my wife/mother/daughter would be murdered i would think the same,because justice should never be handed out by grieving individuals who cant think rationaly

Thank you, man I love this discussion.

[VladlTutushkin]

So then you, believe she should EVENTUALLY be redeemed, if she's residing in revendreth. Okay that's fair.

I personally think that SHE WILL THINK she would not be deserving of that and would willingly want to be condemned as the maw's jailer after zovaal's defeat.

Being a Jailer is not a "punishment", it was already shown how it is more of a reward...

"Madhouse treatment" in Revendreth, isolation, no visitors or news from Azeroth allowed - that will be a punishment.

[Ivarr]

It is clear, it was breaking the wheel of death, fate, and lack of free will, not "ALL WILL SERVE MEH"

That goes against everything she ever stood for.

[VladlTutushkin]

But she's reunited with her good part and no longer mentally ill in the context of this discussion.

She still is, her "bad" part is still pretty much inside of her. She relapsed... for now. Not "healed".

[Varx]

That's more in the context to achieve their goals which not everyone will willingly follow. Same reason she forced anduin to what he is now. It's a shitty means to an end she felt would be justified ultimately. This is why she showed remorse in those 1 on 1's with anduin and the 9.1 trailer but continues to go along with it, because it's for the greater good. Anduin just didn't get in her head during that comic to open her eyes.

Then the Jailer goes all "serve me" and pushes her over the edge.

[Varx]

Effectively they've just given her a way to completely wash her hands of everything she's done, because something-something she wasn't herself, her good part was missing.

Unbelievable.

Blizzard had a way of offering catharsis for those who dislike Sylvanas, or they could have spent even more time sucking off the people that do like Sylvanas.

They chose the latter, again.

That's what people will naturally think. I guess we'll find out what happens and how her actions are handled by the other lore figures.

[Ivarr]

That's more in the context to achieve their goals which not everyone will willingly follow. Same reason she forced anduin to what he is now. It's a shitty means to an end she felt would be justified ultimately. This is why she showed remorse in those 1 on 1's with anduin and the 9.1 trailer but continues to go along with it, because it's for the greater good. Anduin just didn't get in her head during that comic to open her eyes.

Then the Jailer goes all "serve me" and pushes her over the edge.

Binding people to her will because it justified her ends is a far cry from it going 'against everything she ever stood for'.

But it still doesn't touch on the crux of my point, which is that this 'epiphany' she has was entirely selfish and hypocritical. She sought for others to serve her to achieve her ends but as soon as she figured that this same end involved serving someone else she objected.

[Daronokk]

I very much hope her soul is restored just so we can kill her again

[Ivarr]

Blizzard had a way of offering catharsis for those who dislike Sylvanas, or they could have spent even more time sucking off the people that do like Sylvanas.

I think it's self-preservation at this point. This Sylvanas is their child, the more hate she gets, the more the writers feel compelled to make people like her. They've tied their colours to her mast and are prepared to go down with the ship.

and secondly,the idea of prison is 2 fold:

-rehabilitation
-protecting society from dangerous individuals

You missed the 3rd, which is deterrence. The punishment being unpleasant enough to dissuade people from committing the crime.

These three purposes for prison all undermine each other which means society has to make a clear direction which purpose they have in mind otherwise it's an ineffective mess.

The book 'The Human Use of Human Beings' touches upon this. Albeit briefly.

[Daronokk]

It's more like "Holy shit what have I done??!?!?" after taking your psych medication.

You're implying she wasn't in control of her actions, even though we all know the Forsaken were created and given free will the moment the Lich King was weakened. And Sylvanas has been plotting to betray all the living ever since Vanilla WoW.

She has been doing this with her free will this entire time. Don't bullshit us with excuses that she wasn't in control.

[Varx]

Binding people to her will because it justified her ends is a far cry from it going 'against everything she ever stood for'.

But it still doesn't touch on the crux of my point, which is that this 'epiphany' she has was entirely selfish and hypocritical. She sought for others to serve her to achieve her ends but as soon as she figured that this same end involved serving someone else she objected.

Well serving her UNTIL her ends are met. Then they and everyone else is free from the first one's "failed design" Only difference is that she meant it, Zovaal didnt.

The sod cinematic just showed her that zovaal is just another shitty fate after his evil monologue despite w/e BS he initially fed her.

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You're implying she wasn't in control of her actions, even though we all know the Forsaken were created and given free will the moment the Lich King was weakened. And Sylvanas has been plotting to betray all the living ever since Vanilla WoW.

She has been doing this with her free will this entire time. Don't bullshit us with excuses that she wasn't in control.

Dude, Ive been very clear that this is not about mind control and more about mental clarity and manipulation... Maybe read the thread???

[Ivarr]

Well serving her UNTIL her ends are met. Then they and everyone else is free from the first one's "failed design" Only difference is that she meant it, Zovaal didnt.

The sod cinematic just showed her that zovaal is just another shitty fate after his evil monologue despite w/e BS he initially fed her.

Still means she expected others to give her the same benefit of doubt that she couldn't spare to the Jailor.

[Varx]

Still means she expected others to give her the same benefit of doubt that she couldn't spare to the Jailor.

But she did give it to him. He then went against it by saying "all will serve me". Benefit squished.

And I don't think she wanted others to give it to her, more like she knew what she was doing and what the end result would have been and that they they would have benefited from it regardless of how they initially felt about it.

[lockybalboa]

While issuing death threats to the writer just because you do not like the direction that the story is going is out of order, I can totally understand why so many people are pissed with Golden. She is literally condoning genocide here just to please the Sylvanas fanboys and simps and deserve to be flamed.

[Ivarr]

But she did give it to him. He then went against it by saying "all will serve me". Benefit squished.

And I don't think she wanted others to give it to her, more like she knew what she was doing and what the end result would have been and that they they would have benefited from it regardless of how they initially felt about it.

Now you're making it worse. At least the Jailor explained his plans to her. An explanation she didn't even feel she owed to anyone.

She is literally condoning genocide here just to please the Sylvanas fanboys and simps and deserve to be flamed.

I notice it a lot in modern writing. Even if we ignore the genocide part in this case. A lot of modern stories are mean-spirited. The characters behave petty and the writer often uses stories as a vessel to instill their personal views (be it morally or ideologically, not necessarily politically). Not by making them clash in the strongest of forms, like classic literature, but rather rigging the scenarios in such a way that only their view can be right. Protagonists don't meet their own reckoning and learn, but instead they're the ones who are wronged and get to live out their revenge fantasy to the fullest extend without ever having to reevaluate their personal beliefs.


It leaves the audience feeling slightly violated rather than giving them ideas to sink their teeth into.

[Galkura]

OP, you keep saying to look at it objectively, but you seem to have clearly staked your side and are looking at it subjectively.

You seem to be agreeing with everyone who thinks the same as you, then saying anyone else needs to look at it objectively.

[Varx]

Now you're making it worse. At least the Jailor explained his plans to her. An explanation she didn't even feel she owed to anyone.

Why would she if she knew they'd rebel against it. Not everyone is pro drastic change and are blind to the benefits. I mean hell, in order to achieve this ultimate freedom required mass death to be funneled to the maw. That's not something people would be on board with

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OP, you keep saying to look at it objectively, but you seem to have clearly staked your side and are looking at it subjectively.

You seem to be agreeing with everyone who thinks the same as you, then saying anyone else needs to look at it objectively.

Huh? That makes no sense. My side is that sylvanas is not as culpable as someone who did everything she did but with a whole soul, but still responsible for a certain amount. Some people choose to ignore this and just scream "revenge" as if they had a personal stake in teldrassil.

That's why the justice system omits people to serve in juries involving cases they might have a bias towards...

[VladlTutushkin]

Why would she if she knew they'd rebel against it. Not everyone is pro drastic change and are blind to the benefits. I mean hell, in order to achieve this ultimate freedom required mass death to be funneled to the maw. That's not something people would be on board with

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Huh? That makes no sense. My side is that sylvanas is not as culpable as someone who did everything she did but with a whole soul, but still responsible for a certain amount. Some people choose to ignore this and just scream "revenge" as if they had a personal stake in teldrassil.

That's why the justice system omits people to serve in juries involving cases they might have a bias towards...

And justice system still punishes the crime non the less. She deserves to be punished as harshly as possible, with only saving grace from "being smashed into a pile of anima" being that exact "soul split". But she should regret her every decision ten times over and then more and suffer for them.