Why does the community hold so much spite for different sections of itself?

[Tronski]

See, this is what bothers me about WoW players in general - this sort of gross misunderstanding & generalization of huge parts of the playerbase they (more often than not) know absolutely nothing about. I've never been far above 2k in PvP or heavily involved in the RP scene, so what basis would I have in saying "all PvPers are motivated by bullying other people" & "people only RP to jerk off" - Hell, even if I were a PvP god & RP legend I'd still have no grounds to stereotype the entire community like that.

I've raided higher (& lower) ranks yet I find myself currently in the guild that reintroduced me to raiding back in WoD, & while we did "okay" this tier, it has absolutely nothing to do with bragging rights. I raid because the people are great & it's fun to tackle engaging content together, & the majority of the people in the guild would likely say the same. Some people do indeed raid for bragging rights & others raid for gear, but anyone raiding for a long period of time is likely doing it for the fun & the challenge first & foremost. Everything else is absolutely secondary.

I do generalize, but I talk mostly about pve, man vs machine, where machine gets relatively weaker each week.
People claim they want a challenge, yet you don't see anyone pushing for clearing Normal raids in all greens/blues, it's always the next step on the approved ladder Blizzard layed out, that reward you with better gear to move up on the ladder. And they will defend to their dying breath that they are all about the challenge, while everything points to that they are all about killing that next boss so that they can get stronger and in turn make the next step less challenging.

The exception to this rule, like yourself, are those that play for the people you play with. But I have gotten the feeling that most of our kind has moved to Classic for that exact experience.

[jazen]

WoW definitely needs to invest more resources in engaging/meaningful content for the majority of players. The more casual crowd (vast majority of players) pays the bills, and SL was a large slap in the face to the solo/random crowd.

[Relapses]

People on forums don't want to discuss anything. They want validation of their opinions. These aren't discussion forums. They're barely curated negativity echo chambers.

[Advent]

People on forums don't want to discuss anything. They want validation of their opinions. These aren't discussion forums. They're barely curated negativity echo chambers.

This is so right, I couldn't have written it better myself.

[potis]

People on forums don't want to discuss anything. They want validation of their opinions. These aren't discussion forums. They're barely curated negativity echo chambers.

They were allowed to become such echo chambers, thats the problem at least.

An anti-vaxxer forum/fb group or w/e else, were created to be an echo chamber so they can say their stupid stuff on their own.

This place wasnt created to be an echo chamber of LFR heroes hating on WoW, yet here we are, the same posts rotating every few months and the usual suspects posting their irrelevant dribble, like an anti-vax forum, literally.

But i forget, finally clearing BRD in Rank 14 farmed with honor, gear in December 2006 makes you an important part of a discussion about how Vanilla WoW was actually played.

Or in SL terms and lets not reflect on the past, not picking the meta Covenant is the reason you cant even clear a M0, thats the problem alright.

[Soon-TM]

<!@#$ty stuff>

Oddly enough, this forum sometimes just reads like an echo chamber of hardcore raiders (since the PvP subforum is almost dead lulz), with the usual suspects posting their elitist, toxic dribble, QQ'ing about how a wrong covenant choice is preventing them from being WF or something.

See, I can also throw stupid strawmen.

[Sondrelk]

The community despises other parts of itself because often the wishes are directly at odds with one another.

Those that want more world content and systems are often directly at odds with those that want flying.
One side wants less convenience in return for more immersion, whereas the other doesn't care about immersion and just wants to get to the endpoint faster.

The players that want more customization is often at direct odds with those that want perfect balance for PvP and raids.
One doesn't necessarily care about balance so long as their spec is given lots of diversity whereas the other wants balance to come first and diversity second.

These viewpoints cannot truly be reconciled without a drastic rethink of the mechanics of the game.
Classic was a version of the game without flying, and while the game world was heavily inconvenient that was also some players wet dream for immersion. Expansions like Cata were the direct opposite, immersion took a large back seat to just being able to get where you wanted relatively quickly and painlessly.
Same with talents back in Classic compared to the talent revamp in MoP. Specs were horribly unbalanced back then, but also more diverse (at least in theory) whereas specs in MoP where more balanced, but also less diverse and more cookie cutter build heavy.


So in short the community is angry at itself because the game cannot please everyone, and most compromises don't satisfy anyone completely, so you just get players resentful that other players preferred version of the game is impeding their own ideal version.

[shiloskander]

the fact that the game caters to many playstyles just adds fuel to the fire.

[Ivarr]

I'm glad some people still enjoy the game. I'm not begrudging them their fun. It's just that subscribers are dwindling, meanwhile WoW as a game keeps growing. The raw elements of a truly genius MMO are there, it's just that Blizzard lacks the creative courage to take that step. Therein lies my frustration, it's all that missed potential.

[Dracullus]

I'm glad some people still enjoy the game. I'm not begrudging them their fun. It's just that subscribers are dwindling, meanwhile WoW as a game keeps growing. The raw elements of a truly genius MMO are there, it's just that Blizzard lacks the creative courage to take that step. Therein lies my frustration, it's all that missed potential.

Source that subscribers are dwindling in long run? If that would be case, every peak on expansion release would get smaller and smaller, also numbers of release sales would correlate with that, because since Legion or even maybe since WoD Blizzard handle pre-orders and expansion releases almost identically.

[ippollite]

The community despises other parts of itself because often the wishes are directly at odds with one another.

Those that want more world content and systems are often directly at odds with those that want flying.
One side wants less convenience in return for more immersion, whereas the other doesn't care about immersion and just wants to get to the endpoint faster.

The players that want more customization is often at direct odds with those that want perfect balance for PvP and raids.
One doesn't necessarily care about balance so long as their spec is given lots of diversity whereas the other wants balance to come first and diversity second.

These viewpoints cannot truly be reconciled without a drastic rethink of the mechanics of the game.
Classic was a version of the game without flying, and while the game world was heavily inconvenient that was also some players wet dream for immersion. Expansions like Cata were the direct opposite, immersion took a large back seat to just being able to get where you wanted relatively quickly and painlessly.
Same with talents back in Classic compared to the talent revamp in MoP. Specs were horribly unbalanced back then, but also more diverse (at least in theory) whereas specs in MoP where more balanced, but also less diverse and more cookie cutter build heavy.


So in short the community is angry at itself because the game cannot please everyone, and most compromises don't satisfy anyone completely, so you just get players resentful that other players preferred version of the game is impeding their own ideal version.

yupyup. Just taking bfa as an another illustrative example.
First, AP: It really didnt bother me. I wasnt in the competitive game, so i just leveled up my neck doing general stuff in game. When a new ring unlocked i didnt think 'finally!', i thought 'oh cool, i get some new stuff'. I didnt feel like i was incomplete without it. But you can see exactly why it would annoy the hell out of anyone who felt their class power was being throttled without having the availability of their array of options. And to reach that point they needed to do some incredibly tedious grinding on islands and in world just to do what they feel should be their core gameplay.

Or titanforging. Again, for me, it was 'oh cool, this item titan/warforged! Total bonus!'. I like titanforging, its just neat little bonuses i wasnt expecting and made rewards/drops feel a little more exciting. But again, if you're running high end content where competition for spots is cut-throat, its fairly easy to sympathise as to why its viewed incredibly negatively.

How do you reconcile these types of players?

Or another one: Conduit energy. I dont care about it. I have one spec, i run that spec. I almost never change unless i get a sudden huge conduit drop that makes me want to swap out a conduit or pathway. And since i have almost always full conduit energy, i can do that. But if you want to optimise against the dungeon, the trash, the bosses, or whatever, well, you're gonna run out quickly. And its going to once again feel like you're being prevented from playing the game in the way you want to play it (and being deliberately held back by design that seems like its built around casual players). Which i guess brings us to the blizzard perspective as well. Its clear why they have the restriction in place: They really want new players (or returning players) to come to the game. And they dont want a meta to build up around conduit switching since this adds another barrier to general accessibility. And so they are very stubborn about holding onto it even despite casual players like me not caring a jot, and the hardcore feeling like they're being deliberately prevented from accessing their character's genuine potential.

[Ivarr]

Source that subscribers are dwindling in long run? If that would be case, every peak on expansion release would get smaller and smaller, also numbers of release sales would correlate with that, because since Legion or even maybe since WoD Blizzard handle pre-orders and expansion releases almost identically.

I consider the fact that Blizzard has stopped disclosing the subscriber numbers to be evidence that they're dwindling.

[Sondrelk]

I consider the fact that Blizzard has stopped disclosing the subscriber numbers to be evidence that they're dwindling.

We know they were dwindling since the peak during the launch of WotLK all the way to when they stopped showing numbers. The question is whether the game population is still dwindling, how fast, and more importantly how some player are so certain it is still dwindling despite it eventually having to shut down.
The more likely scenario is that the playerbase has mostly stabilized, which would explain how it is still going with no discernible change in how many are active.

[Ivarr]

If the player population were stable then realm sharding wouldn't be necessary.

[Dracullus]

I consider the fact that Blizzard has stopped disclosing the subscriber numbers to be evidence that they're dwindling.

It's obvious that WoW has no longer 10-12 million subs every quarter like it was in early years when masses still tried WoW first time and they covered for people who were taking breaks from WoW or leaving forever.

But man, it was 11 years ago and WoW was only 5 year old back then. Since then it's obvious how WoW subs works. Blizzard resigned from showing subs, cause bad PR from 4-5 quarters when subs drops are not worth good PR from 1 quarter when subs rapidly grow. Hell, they can even get that good PR from releasing only sale numbers after launch, which they do every time. And that number is stable, in BfA and SL even grow a little.

[ippollite]

How do you reconcile these types of players?

Sorry to quote myself. But for all the shit this expansion has had, you can see that one of its driving forces is to try and solve this problem, and the devs need some congratulations for recognising it. The split between anima and renown is obviously an attempt to try and reconcile this issue. Its clearly a first pass and its not quite there. They've got the general idea, but they need to iterate and fine tune it. So... its a positive, right?

[Sondrelk]

If the player population were stable then realm sharding wouldn't be necessary.

Stable population doesnt mean a stagnant one. Players leave and new players join all the time, not to mention players leaving old servers for new ones, or indeed said old players leaving because of anemic servers and new ones going for the large ones.

A stable population of 1 million players doesnt mean you have the same one million players the entire time, or even that those 1 million players stay on the same server or even faction.

[Dracullus]

Sorry to quote myself. But for all the shit this expansion has had, you can see that one of its driving forces is to try and solve this problem, and the devs need some congratulations for recognising it. The split between anima and renown is obviously an attempt to try and reconcile this issue. Its clearly a first pass and its not quite there. They've got the general idea, but they need to iterate and fine tune it. So... its a positive, right?

On paper it's amazing solution. In reality I'm not sure enough people care about anima and covenant buildings/mini games if no player power is to gain here. Especially since there is almost always easy to get version of cosmetic, these side activities are needed for recolors.

In general SL design is "we will be like Legion, but listen to every complain". Sure, it's better for raiders, but I think general playerbase was far more invested in Legion with it's insane RNG and unfair design. Now min-maxers has better game.. and many casuals don't like it. Aaand min-maxers cry anyway, maybe even more since now they have more time for this.

[Ivarr]

Sorry to quote myself. But for all the shit this expansion has had, you can see that one of its driving forces is to try and solve this problem, and the devs need some congratulations for recognising it. The split between anima and renown is obviously an attempt to try and reconcile this issue. Its clearly a first pass and its not quite there. They've got the general idea, but they need to iterate and fine tune it. So... its a positive, right?

Yes. I've got a buddy in UX design for corporate back end software and he would thank the heavens on his bare knees if his userbase was as vocal as Blizzard's.

[ippollite]

On paper it's amazing solution. In reality I'm not sure enough people care about anima and covenant buildings/mini games if no player power is to gain here. Especially since there is almost always easy to get version of cosmetic, these side activities are needed for recolors.

In general SL design is "we will be like Legion, but listen to every complain". Sure, it's better for raiders, but I think general playerbase was far more invested in Legion with it's insane RNG and unfair design. Now min-maxers has better game.. and many casuals don't like it. Aaand min-maxers cry anyway, maybe even more since now they have more time for this.

If i had to throw in my tuppence, they have the rewards ass backwards. Casuals just want to feel valid in the current game. They dont want to play a pseudo second string game where they grind endlessly for meaningless and trivial rewards. Theres like 20 ilvls they can catch up on, slowly, and they understand they arent going to have the absolutely best gear (in power and looks) in game. But if they do the grind, they expect they can progress. They want their TIME investment to be meaningful. The hardcore, by my very scant understanding want challenging game play. They want rewards recognising their achievements that NO ONE ELSE IN GAME has. They want to demarcate themselves VISUALLY. They want to FLEX. They want their ACCOMPLISHMENTS to be meaningful.

Shadowlands assumed the exact opposite drives: Casual players want cosmetics and will happily burn themselves out to grind them out. The hardcore want gear differentials setting them apart. Flip this, and we're so much closer to the actual playerbase desires.