Is D2R the best ARPG in the last 10 years?

[cozzri]

Yes, because you know, developing is free, why not supporting a game for 50 years investing time and money forever in a game that stops selling after 3-4 years max.

That’s why we still have Windows 98, right? Ah, no? Really?

The game stopped selling because they stopped supporting it, can you imagine if Windows reskinned Windows 98 without adding any of the developments/support they put into their product in the last 20 years? You're comparison is so far off its laughable.

Look at Titan quest as a prime example, came out during the same era and Diablo 2, and STILL is getting expansions and updates.

So yes, continued support for a game/product is a successful business strategy, who would have thought?

[Vampyrr]

I don't know Last Epoch, but Grim Dawn is a nice try but entirely inferior. They even tried to make a mod that recreates D2 and it was a snore-fest.



That's up to you, but there are ways to break the resistances, like a lower resist item, or building lower resist gear (conviction aura for example) and removing that from the game would also reduce the need for several different builds. They are part of the game and several systems depend on them. In my opinion, it's absolutely good game design.

Well you are welcome to that opinion even if it's a terrible one.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

"Change" =/= Good.

Yeah, the way games are designed and play now is different - and thus D2R feels very different. But that's not a bad thing. Don't assume modern changes and dogmas in game design are "progress" and games that don't follow them are "outdated".

Not saying D2 is perfect, there's lots of things i'd do differently. But there's lots of things I like about it over D3, and I enjoy it far more than 95% of modern games.

Things about D2 I love:

-The atmosphere (sound, environment, feel)

-The more interesting, less streamlined gear - it feels better to have pieces that have weird stats or are way more powerful than others. Too much balance / streamlining makes it boring.

-The pacing - for me, D2 has the perfect pace. Not too fast, not too slow. D3 and other modern RPG's get a bit too fast - and lots of other RPG's are too slow.

Overall, I find that it's lack of "polish" makes it way more fun. There's variation - everything isn't the same. There's lots of cool, badass, crazy stuff that actually stands out.

- - - Updated - - -

Pretty much all I have to say about D3.

No one is arguing that any of the ARPG genre aren't acquired taste. If you LOVE D2, you will likely not LOVE D3. I'm talking about 10K+ hours kind of love.

PoE is the same, in the fact that it is technically an ARPG, it relates heavily to D2 and like every other game in the genre, it's all inspired by D2, but with it's own twist, and the truth is that PoE is overly complex, it requires "GOOD BUILD", which you can see from the responses in this thread "you were just built wrong". Yeah, that was my point smartass. The stacking of systems sucks and the economy sucks. I have a PoE T-Shirt, from the founders pack, I have spent hundreds of dollars in PoE, but it simply isn't better than D2. It never was, to me. It was a different game, still is. It just became a worse game as time progressed.

PoE will go on to last in this genre, for at least as long as D2 has, and I'm sure many games will reference PoE as their inspiration, rather than D2, because it has innovated and it has an actual draw to the gameplay. There are reason for me, personally, why it simply can't topple D2.

People in this thread seem to forget that everything here, is opinion. They're responding like "that's your opinion". No shit sherlock. I may hope that whatever you think, is your opinion.

D2 is the classic that spawned all the other ones. D3 (obviously), PoE, Grim Dawn, etc etc. They're all offshoots of D2. The developers themselves have said so many times. None of them gave me, personally, the drive to play it as much as I have D2. People call D2's endgame boring, but then they want to implement the D3 end-game, which is even more mindless. Just mice in a wheel. At least PoE has actual endgame. PoE has a right to exist, but D3, D3 in my humble opinion should never have seen the light in this form. The only thing it does right is combat flow and that's mostly because they did away with many of the RPG elements in the ARPG. No more FHR for example. D2 is slow on purpose, by design. That's not dated, that's choice. Blizzard clearly made the wrong choice with D3.

I'm an exception I guess. I've put tons of time into both games - I love them both. I lean a bit more towards D2 overall - but I really enjoy both. Well, at least if D3 includes RoS. I really didn't like pre-RoS D3.

[Gravity2015]

if by Best you mean Most Unplayable - - than yes, this is the Best.

[Akka]

Either a lot of people here haven't played a Soulsborne game, or they don't remember they're also ARPG.
I refuse to believe anyone who played Diablo and Dark Souls could actually think the former is better.

[chiddie]

The game stopped selling because they stopped supporting it, can you imagine if Windows reskinned Windows 98 without adding any of the developments/support they put into their product in the last 20 years? You're comparison is so far off its laughable.

Look at Titan quest as a prime example, came out during the same era and Diablo 2, and STILL is getting expansions and updates.

So yes, continued support for a game/product is a successful business strategy, who would have thought?

It’s not far off by any meaning. You code a game. You launch it. You support it for a while. You code a sequel. You launch it. Etc.

Windows is the same. You launch a version. You support it for a while. Then you code a new version, you launch it and stop supporting the previous version.

There are some exceptions, but they are called exceptions for a reason. Also the original TQ launched in 2006 and his graphics are far more enjoyable nowadays than original D2, that has a Commodore 64 graphics in comparison and it’s the main reason people stopped playing it (every time I press the G button in D2R my eyes burn in seconds).

You ask the impossible, no games but massive multiplayer online games get a 20 years support, it’s simply anti economical.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

Sure the nostalgia trip is fun, but the mechanics, overall gameplay and balance are just all over the place. Not quite sure where i am supposed to find complexity or challenge without creating it myself. It feels quite a bit like listening to people who really enjoy classic. I'm not quite sure if its just wanting to deeply understand a game and its mechanics without having to have to learn anything new.

If you toss the game to random people who have never played it before i highly doubt it would come out at the top against PoE, D3, Torchlight 2, Grim Dawn or Last Epoch. I do think D2 was the best arpg of its time, but there's so many gripes i have with the game that all of these other ones took lessons from its not even close for me.

I can see why people like it though, and the remaster was a great success this time around. If only they didnt have to sacrifice wc3 to find out how much a proper remaster actually cost to make.

[Kalocy Jim]

Sure the nostalgia trip is fun, but the mechanics, overall gameplay and balance are just all over the place. Not quite sure where i am supposed to find complexity or challenge without creating it myself. It feels quite a bit like listening to people who really enjoy classic. I'm not quite sure if its just wanting to deeply understand a game and its mechanics without having to have to learn anything new.

If you toss the game to random people who have never played it before i highly doubt it would come out at the top against PoE, D3, Torchlight 2, Grim Dawn or Last Epoch. I do think D2 was the best arpg of its time, but there's so many gripes i have with the game that all of these other ones took lessons from its not even close for me.

I can see why people like it though, and the remaster was a great success this time around. If only they didnt have to sacrifice wc3 to find out how much a proper remaster actually cost to make.

When you say not sure where you are supposed to find complexity, are you having a hard time navigating and getting through hell difficulty?

The complexity isn't really getting through the game and killing baal on hell, its making your character as efficient as you can to do most / all activities you want to do on that character and other characters that you build.

My sorc is very geared, because i know the game well enough to find good items in hell difficulty that my sorc is suited to, and trade for items that I need.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

When you say not sure where you are supposed to find complexity, are you having a hard time navigating and getting through hell difficulty?

The complexity isn't really getting through the game and killing baal on hell, its making your character as efficient as you can to do most / all activities you want to do on that character and other characters that you build.

My sorc is very geared, because i know the game well enough to find good items in hell difficulty that my sorc is suited to, and trade for items that I need.

Yeah i am aware the endgame is to make your character as efficient as possible, that's what i meant by having to create the complexity or more accurately the difficulty yourself. Having to have done that already i'm not finding it that appealing to do again, while modern games usually have some new bosses or dungeons to complete that keep ramping up which i find more appealing.

[Cracked]

I don’t get how D3 has no variety. Every class has 5 green sets (not counting the common green sets from the blacksmith) and each set requires a proper build to work. That’s at least 5 different builds for each class. And every build has variants depending on which type of content you’re aiming at. For example gr solo speed builds are different from gr push builds and play differently.

End game content itself is not THAT various, I agree, but playstyle imho has more than enough variety.

I haven't played in a while. But every class may have 5 sets, but how many of them are "viable" at any given point? In most situations even with bad gear, the top performing set will just be the best, period. Yeah you can optimize a bit for low gr speed, but realistically its not even that important (unless you play crusader or smth idk), because it saves you so little. My gripe is more so in similar vein to PoE, you get flooded with items but you just salvage / ignore 99% of them, because they are guaranteed to be useless, because most of your gear is absolutely locked in, piece wise. That's what I like in D2 compared to PoE or D3, most of your power doesn't come from gimmicks like sets or legendary bonuses, but from your character. +Skills destroys it a bit, but it is what it is.

[Martymark]

"Is WOW Vanilla the best MMO in the last 10 years?"

[epLe]

The simplicity of things in D2(R), while still having more depth around character building, makes it alone way better than D3 or any of the overly complex diablo-clone games.

[Mashanerz]

No, because it's still just D2

For it to be "the best" then a couple things would need to happen. First and foremost, the desync that happens constantly is a problem that's over 20 years old....how is it getting worse?

Second, some QoL updates absolutely should have happened. Why is the default to button to see loot Alt?! And then F-keys are the default bindings? How is that still a thing? Why do we need a button to see loot?

I don't think anyone would complain too much if good changes were made....as an old school player, I remember using tons of mods, and while I don't think we'll see a maphack we should see things like mods that show you how many sockets an item has before picking it up.

Or how about changes to enemies? I'm a hammerdin and my buddy is a cold sorc....seeing magic/cold immune mobs in hell happens all the fucking time, can we fix the system so that some mobs aren't just completely invincible?

Speaking of picking things up...the system is old and kinda sucks. There's plenty of different directions a revamp could go to improve the game, at the very least fix the bug that makes the names go into seizure mode by constantly re-ordering things for no reason. I assume bugs where your character gets stuck and does nothing while looting is a product of desync, that gets annoying.

All this and I haven't even mentioned the fact that every single time me and my buddy try and hop on to play together the servers are down.

[chiddie]

Either a lot of people here haven't played a Soulsborne game, or they don't remember they're also ARPG.
I refuse to believe anyone who played Diablo and Dark Souls could actually think the former is better.

Soulslike are ARPGs but of a different kind. It’s not than one is better than the other, they are completely different.

[Utrrabbit]

If you did not play any other arpg in the last 10 years absolutely the best..Otherwise hardly in the top 5 or even 10....

Speaking a someone who has. It absolutely is better. Every other arpg I have played in the last decade are shallow let down. None of them even come close.

- - - Updated - - -

No, because it's still just D2

For it to be "the best" then a couple things would need to happen. First and foremost, the desync that happens constantly is a problem that's over 20 years old....how is it getting worse?

Second, some QoL updates absolutely should have happened. Why is the default to button to see loot Alt?! And then F-keys are the default bindings? How is that still a thing? Why do we need a button to see loot?

I don't think anyone would complain too much if good changes were made....as an old school player, I remember using tons of mods, and while I don't think we'll see a maphack we should see things like mods that show you how many sockets an item has before picking it up.

Or how about changes to enemies? I'm a hammerdin and my buddy is a cold sorc....seeing magic/cold immune mobs in hell happens all the fucking time, can we fix the system so that some mobs aren't just completely invincible?

Speaking of picking things up...the system is old and kinda sucks. There's plenty of different directions a revamp could go to improve the game, at the very least fix the bug that makes the names go into seizure mode by constantly re-ordering things for no reason. I assume bugs where your character gets stuck and does nothing while looting is a product of desync, that gets annoying.

All this and I haven't even mentioned the fact that every single time me and my buddy try and hop on to play together the servers are down.

Sounds like you do not understand how immunities in d2 work. Also with speccing into cold mastery it completely bypasses cold immune mobs in hell.

[chiddie]

I haven't played in a while. But every class may have 5 sets, but how many of them are "viable" at any given point? In most situations even with bad gear, the top performing set will just be the best, period. Yeah you can optimize a bit for low gr speed, but realistically its not even that important (unless you play crusader or smth idk), because it saves you so little. My gripe is more so in similar vein to PoE, you get flooded with items but you just salvage / ignore 99% of them, because they are guaranteed to be useless, because most of your gear is absolutely locked in, piece wise. That's what I like in D2 compared to PoE or D3, most of your power doesn't come from gimmicks like sets or legendary bonuses, but from your character. +Skills destroys it a bit, but it is what it is.

Of course not all builds perform the same but it’s the same for D2. D2 is more build dependent while in D3 builds are more forged around loot. The approach is different and you may prefer D2 approach, but in the end also in D2 there are builds that work and builds that don’t work. Also, I don’t know if I’m D2R they introduced infinite respecs, but in D2 if you mess up with the build you are REALLY in trouble, D3 is more forgiving especially in the normal difficulty.

I love them both but build variety side I really cannot agree D2 is better than D3.

Just go to maxroll.gg , have a look at D2/D3 tier lists and see how many are there for each game. Also as I said every D3 main build you see on maxroll has at least one variant that play different from the other.

[Cracked]

Of course not all builds perform the same but it’s the same for D2. D2 is more build dependent while in D3 builds are more forged around loot. The approach is different and you may prefer D2 approach, but in the end also in D2 there are builds that work and builds that don’t work. Also, I don’t know if I’m D2R they introduced infinite respecs, but in D2 if you mess up with the build you are REALLY in trouble, D3 is more forgiving especially in the normal difficulty.

I love them both but build variety side I really cannot agree D2 is better than D3.

Just go to maxroll.gg , have a look at D2/D3 tier lists and see how many are there for each game. Also as I said every D3 main build you see on maxroll has at least one variant that play different from the other.

Yeah definitely, build is one thing, but I mostly always just looked at character progression in terms of items. It's like in WoW, if you are a Warlock, you basically have 3 "builds", more or less viable. Then the bulk of your character progression comes from the stuff you wear. In D2R you can have theoretically infinite respecs, you can combine rare drops from Hell bosses to get a respec token.

[reemi]

I prefer 3 too, i got a refund for d2r...

waiting for D4..

[Mashanerz]

Sounds like you do not understand how immunities in d2 work. Also with speccing into cold mastery it completely bypasses cold immune mobs in hell.

Or I do and I think the game is paced wrong...

[cozzri]

It’s not far off by any meaning. You code a game. You launch it. You support it for a while. You code a sequel. You launch it. Etc.

Windows is the same. You launch a version. You support it for a while. Then you code a new version, you launch it and stop supporting the previous version.

There are some exceptions, but they are called exceptions for a reason. Also the original TQ launched in 2006 and his graphics are far more enjoyable nowadays than original D2, that has a Commodore 64 graphics in comparison and it’s the main reason people stopped playing it (every time I press the G button in D2R my eyes burn in seconds).

You ask the impossible, no games but massive multiplayer online games get a 20 years support, it’s simply anti economical.

I realize I ask the impossible; Blizzard shut down the studio that made the game and basically alienated the developers that made them millions; they really had nobody left that could make any significant additions to the game. There's no doubt that continued support would have been profitable for D2, similar to Windows, MMOs, etc. D2 had the popularity and playerbase for longevity, but that opportunity was effectively squandered when suits decided to cut loose everyone that made that success possible.

I'd like to imagine a world where D2 wasn't abandoned like it was, that's a game I would be interested watching evolve and grow with the community.

I'm glad Vicarious Visions was able to accomplish what they have with the game, yet I feel they need more freedom in developing it further into something better.