This is very unpopular but there's nothing wrong if Sylvanas ends up being redeemed.

[Demonly]

I think you missed the last where Vader was not redeemed, he simply saved his son from being killed and then died. That is a good deed, but no redemption.

Besides that just no. There simply is no way to redeem her and there should be no attemp to. Its already annoying enough that all guilt gets put on her, while the rest of the horde walks free, but letting her off the hook is just too much.

This is where you're wrong in my opinion. At the end of starwars Anakin ends up being a force ghost on the side of good. He was redeemed in the eyes of the force and in the eyes of his masters, which is why he was there.

Anakin was redeemed.

[Traveler Voltin]

Yet people would explode in their pants if Arthas was brought back and redeemed and would call it right

yep. that is the sad reality.

[LordVargK]

Vashj? Azshara? Lana’thel?

Azshara is still alive. Vashj is (also) a snake with boobs; a monster, not really a woman (which I guess the poster meant with "female"). And Lana'thel is about as important as the random defias thief, many of which are also women, she's not at all a major character.

Without casting judgement we can observe that there are no important female lore characters (that are mostly humanoid) that died in WoW.

[Vakna]

Yet people would explode in their pants if Arthas was brought back and redeemed and would call it right

People would do the same for Sylvanas, what's your point? There are always gonna be people who try to rationalise anything. Just because there are some weirdos out there who have a fetish for certain characters and don't care what they do, it doesn't negate my point. There is absolutely nothing Sylvanas can do to redeem herself.

[Raisei]

Yet people would explode in their pants if Arthas was brought back and redeemed and would call it right

Well, by his own logic Danuser just declared that Arthas just as much as Sylvanas has done nothing wrong. Was all the Jailer. In fact I would be extremely angry if Arthas would stay unredeemed if Sylvanas is left off the hook, but I suppose Danuser is more into hot Elf girls instead of hot blond boys.

In the end the whole thing is bullshit, it bends the lore over backwards, ruins the story of WC3 by removing any logical sense from people and all of that so that noone can cut that Banshee's head off. Danusers needs to be fired and fast. Sadly no one at Blizzard seems to care what he is writing so he has all the power.

[Powerogue]

I don't know. It still stands that Sylvanas's head was the promise given by the Horde to prove that their changes from BFA would stick and that this faction war could finally be over. That's not something to just gloss over because we love redemption arcs.

Sylvanas has still not done anything redemptive. Those hurt by her have not forgiven her whatsoever. So far, Uther (one of the only ones present who hasn't been personally hurt by her) helped lift her out of a well-deserved self-imposed hell because we need her assistance. That doesn't require forgiving her in any way, just putting her squarely in the "villain we begrudgingly accept assistance from because we share mutual enemies" position she's been in since WC3.

I'd still sooner let in Kael'Thas or The Pile of Ashes Formerly Known as Garrosh back into the Horde before her.

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Yet people would explode in their pants if Arthas was brought back and redeemed and would call it right

Well we killed him, and we were right to do so. If we decapitated Sylvanas and received some sort of post-humous assistance from her spirit before leaving it in the Shadowlands that would be a different story. (IE: Grand Magistrix Elisande)

[Witchblade77]

Sylvanas can't be redeemed as the character has nothing to redeem for.

Basically what it boils down to now is that Sylvanas was never in control of her mind and body since she was killed, she was trapped all along and some kind of evil entity took over her body. There is only Sylvanas the High Elf that died in WC3 and returns now at the end of Shadowlands, everything in between was the Jailer's doing.

It's a stupid bullshit excuse to not have to kill off Sylvanas for being an evil bitch. It's also stupid writing as it contradicts previous lore and even makes the Jailer's plan from the start nonsensical.

Take WC3:TFT for example. The Lich King (Jailer's pawn) is damaged by Illidan and because of this Arthas (Jailer's pawn) loses his powers, Sylvanas breaks free and regains free will (but not really as she is still the Jailer's pawn as we now know). Sylvanas uses this opportunity to attack Arthas, even though both of them are the Jailer's pawns. Add in the Dreadlords that play both sides, in previous lore were supposed to be Burning Legion affiliated but we now know (retconned) that they're Jailer pawns as well.

None of it makes sense. This whole expansion shits all over previously established lore. And nobody wanted Sylvanas to get a redemption, she deserves to die. Danuser takes his digital romance too serious that he doesn't care pissing off fans.

umm... did you watch the same cutscene?

cause she literally admits that it was her that made all of those horrible choices and now she has to face the consequences. Uther helps her work through her denial by showing that he intimately understands what its like. her refering to herself in third person is denial. that she has to face... she wakes up because she faced that denial.

I don't think she is getting forgiven. she knows she is not getting forgiven, she calls her own crimes unforgivable. all she is trying to do right now is help fix some of the damage.

also.. she is already dead. and I highly doubt she'll get to have her life back. absolute best case scenario for her is that her soul ends up going to more then likely Venthir and going through their process before getting reborn as a different person. or... she may just end up taking Jailer's place, kinda like Bolvar takes place of Arthas, except her's is more of a penance then "there must always be a Lich king" type of sacrifice. and you know... with more chains in place for Sylvanas so that she doesn't end up going down the Zorval's path.

[Vongimi]

I'm a sucker for a good redemption story, I'm still holding out for an Arthas redemption. Sylvanas on the other hand... no. The story was written specifically to make her a hate-able character. And doing great evil knowing full well that it was evil, but she justified it to reach some unknown goal. All the while there was giant red flags that the Jailer was not going to help her with said goal, but had his own.

So by her finally realizing this and trying to fix it, she is by definition, dumb as a box of rocks. Not a fun redemption story. From a guy who loves redemption stories.

I do like the soul split deal though, if they follow through with it correctly. It doesn't absolve her, as its stated in the cinematic that IS her. She IS the banshee queen. And it makes sense from a lore perspective. When raised into undeath in the Warcraft universe, if free will is maintained the resulting undead is still kinda on the evil side. Their personality traits start to heavily lean to violent, self serving, sadistic ends. All the forsaken still have free will, but they clearly do not heed the same morals as they did in life. This soul splitting deal would kind of make sense in this regard. Its still themselves, they have free will, but just without the moral compass anymore. They've gone "feral" so to say.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

literally noone complains about her redemption its the fucking story of her which with the latest Video throws everything she did from Wc3 till now out of the window because " DUH BAD SOUL DID EVERYTHING NOT ME BRUH" this just opens so many loopholes for blizzard to just reuse this for every other character if there is an enemy involved who meddles with souls which we have plenty in the Warcraft story ...

Ironically Frostmurne was splitting/absorbing souls since Wc3 and its Cannon, Arthas was the first soul to be absorbed of hes "good properties" if you go back and replay the campaign Muradin even said so after reading the runes on the blade

[Sarange]

Somebody had to explain to me what redemption for genocide looks like. I’m sure Elvs would prefer justice.

Redemption does not, necessarily, mean justice won't happen or all is forgiven.

[Triceron]

I think you missed the last where Vader was not redeemed, he simply saved his son from being killed and then died. That is a good deed, but no redemption.

He came back as a force ghost, what more do you think needed to happen in order to be considered redeemed....

[arkanon]

he went to jedi 'heaven', how the f8ck is that not redemption?

He regained his connection with the light side of the force, this is true, and it is also commonly accepted and understood that Sith cannot become what we know as a force ghost. I dont believe that is the same as being redeemed - it doesn't undo the horrific acts he was involved in, or, directly actioned himself - remember, he literally slaughtered children, and that's not even the worst thing he did.

Personally my issue with this is that everyone saw it coming a mile off - im not against a redemption arc as a story telling tool, but they have done it before, more than once. I found it quite insulting when they would say things like "oh her story is still unraveling, im sure you will be surprised!" - no, i dont, everyone can see this shit coming a fucking mile off.

My problem with this and SO many other story lines in WoW is that they take the easy way out nearly every fucking time - they are too scared to do anything bold and actually kill off any popular main characters. Some claim its because of merch sales, but im not convinced since Arthas merch is still hugely popular. I think its more likely they just dont want to offend anyone. One of my favorite moments was watching the Arthas cinematic for the first time and being SO happy that they actually followed through with it - i was concerned they would take the easy way out and do the ol' "oh hes like, in prison for an expansion or two until we need him again" bullshit, so im super happy they committed and did it.

tl;dr i dont hate redemption stories, i hate THIS story.

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He came back as a force ghost, what more do you think needed to happen in order to be considered redeemed....

Since sith cannot become a force ghost, it is clear he regained his connection to the light side of the force - but personally, i dont consider his one act of 'good' to be even close to balancing out the massacre of children, and all the other innocents he murdered, either directly, or indirectly.

[Triceron]

Since sith cannot become a force ghost, it is clear he regained his connection to the light side of the force - but personally, i dont consider his one act of 'good' to be even close to balancing out the massacre of children, and all the other innocents he murdered, either directly, or indirectly.

Sounds like you're talking about atonement. Balancing out evils of his past would be more along the lines of atonement or penance.

Redemption more about being saved from his evil ways; deliverance.

[Pheraz]

The next time I will be drunk and do embarrassing things I will say that one part of me, you know the responsibility part the good one, got frozen in time when I drank that last drink.

1) star wars is not a good story
2) sylvanas looks cool but her character got rewritten so often that I just can't anything serious anymore. It's like a meal you rewarmed so often that it tastes like mud. Just.... Get her out of our faces. I don't even care anymore how. Lock her up, kill her, let her have her own cookie shop in Silvermoon who cares

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Since sith cannot become a force ghost, it is clear he regained his connection to the light side of the force - but personally, i dont consider his one act of 'good' to be even close to balancing out the massacre of children, and all the other innocents he murdered, either directly, or indirectly.

Where does it say that? I guess you can pull the "technically" card if Disney has since changed this, but being a force ghost didn't require being a "good guy." Bad dudes were force ghosts often enough, I remember at least one vividly in SWTOR. I know Disney bought Star Wars and can technically say whatever they want, but prior to that, this wasn't a light side exclusive, none of the powers were. Pre-Disney the force had more than good guy Jedi and bad guy Sith.

[Revamp Man]

She wasn’t mind controlled
Her soul was just split in 2

[Momster]

Based, 100% agreed.

[Vrinara]

Honestly.. If they do redeem her.. After everything she has done. it would be predictable. It would be predictable to have her sacrifice herself at the end too. There is no real way of fixing this issue. Either way. We fans are gonna bitch. Cause that's kinda what we do these days. It's sad. but it's kinda true.

[epigramx]

There's a common thread in this ..thread and I will use the following quote as an example but it applies to possibly most posts here.

I'm a sucker for a good redemption story, I'm still holding out for an Arthas redemption. Sylvanas on the other hand... no. The story was written specifically to make her a hate-able character.

All these things are extremely subjective; it depends on the eye of the beholder who you will consider forgivable or not; some people for example always believe in punishment and revenge so they would only consider killing people like that or others believe in rehabilitation so true regret is enough to them without even punishment.

Also I'd like to stress that it's extremely depended on if the screen/story/book etc. shows you some events explictly; e.g. if you know Hitler put people into ovens you know he did something bad but if you are only told Anakin exploded a fucking planet which had children you may not care; do not base your ethics on the surface.

[Thelxi]

Or you know they could've just kept her as leader of the undead/horde, and if she really had to burn down the tree maybe given her a reason for it other than flared up hysteria.