This is very unpopular but there's nothing wrong if Sylvanas ends up being redeemed.

[Magnagarde]

The problem isn't a redemption story in general; the problem is that almost two decades of lore are taken by surprise through a convient hindsight villain and it leaves an unsatisfying resolution to everything Sylvanas' character has been up to in the meantime. Her major motivations, as known to us out of character, have been changed at least three to four times. This incosistency, the dubious and vague explanation provided by the latest cinematic and the various tragedies that preceded what we're seeing now - who haven't gotten a satisfactory resolution at all - leads to so many being disappointed. Most knew where the story would be taken by Danuser though; the Sylvanas "redemption&attonement" story was crystal clear since the day he released "Dark Mirror" that provided insight into Nathanos' background.

[OwenBurton]

It would make so much more sense to give Arthas a redemption story instead

Did Arthas or Sylvanas kill more people between the two of them, though?

[Straga21]

Some of the greatest stories ever told are stories of great redemption precisely in the face of most people not believing they can be redeemed. Take Star Wars for example; people loved it also because the heart of the story was the redemption of the most evil person in the galaxy itself; he had murdered millions of people and nobody believed - not even the audience themselves - that he can be redeemed; yet Luke believed in him and he was redeemed and it was glorious.

It became a trope, a very overused one, and people are tired of it.
Sometimes a villain is a villain.
They overused Sylvannas as it is already.

[Raisei]

Ironically Frostmurne was splitting/absorbing souls since Wc3 and its Cannon, Arthas was the first soul to be absorbed of hes "good properties" if you go back and replay the campaign Muradin even said so after reading the runes on the blade

Yes the deal was that it absorbs souls completely. Arthas soul wasn't SPLIT, it was taken completely. Hence why he lost the ability to feel guilt or shame for his actions. He acknowledges this in the book, when one of the Dreadlords remarks about Frostmournes powers.

However Sylvanas' soul was not eaten by Frostmourne. Arthas captured her soul and then used a ritual to turn it into a banshee, while also then stashing her body away. There was never any mention of a part of her soul being stuck anywhere.

It's nothing but a cheap retcon to excuse Sylvanas' actions by removing agency from her. The worst part is that they are clearly treating Uther as an equal to her in that regard, because he smacked a few angels around because of Devos. Totally the same as extensive genocide and many many other deplorable activities.

[Raisei]

Did Arthas or Sylvanas kill more people between the two of them, though?

Difference being that Arthas had no free will on top of having his soul stolen. First he was under control of the Lich King, then the helmet controlled him. Sylvanas was freed of the Lich Kings influence and still DECIDED to murder farmers in her lab to create a new blight.

Only now we are supposed to believe that that was the Jailers influence.

[LilSaihah]

Well this just makes the story infinitely less interesting. Why couldn't she just be an asshole because she's an asshole?

[Diaphin]

Darth Vaders redemption follows an entire story arc that has been laid down and made clear since the beginning of the movies. The equivalent to WoWs storytelling would be introducing Palpatine in episode 6 after not having given the slightest clue whatsoever that he even exists and then make him the culprit behind everything while simultaneously making him a cartoony villain with no clear motives.

Actually, in episode 4 he was supposed to be just a generic bad guy, as it wasn't planned to be a trilogy at this point. And in episode 5, Palpatine was just teased for one moment and its revealed that Vader is Lukes father, without hints at Vader getting redeemed. Its literally only at episode 6 that his redemption arc starts, pretty deep into the movie because we have all the Jabba and Ewokk shenanigans first.

[AngerFork]

It's nothing but a cheap retcon to excuse Sylvanas' actions by removing agency from her. The worst part is that they are clearly treating Uther as an equal to her in that regard, because he smacked a few angels around because of Devos. Totally the same as extensive genocide and many many other deplorable activities.

What drives me so crazy about treating Uther as an equal is that he truly started on his road to redemption well before receiving his soul fragment back & with a lot more than an arrow. He fought back in the Maw, showed proper remorse when he returned to Elysian Hold, stayed as a prisoner sharing what he could of Forsworn ideology to the Kyrian, & reflected honestly on what he did to Arthas all before getting the rest of his soul back. He actually did the character work & was redeemed with the soul fragment being more of the final piece of the journey rather than a macguffin that did all the heavy lifting for him.

[Lynnaroo]

A redemption arc for sylvanas could have worked if it was set up years ago, if her character was kept consistent and the story wasn't oversaturated with her. The current redemption is just a cheap cop out for killing her off for good and keeping her in the story.

[Accendor]

He came back as a force ghost, what more do you think needed to happen in order to be considered redeemed....

It is the same as with the Sylvanas storyline - just because the authors tell you he is redeemed, does not mean he actually is. Vaders crimes and Sylvanas are actually quiet similar, so by that logic she would also be redeemed just because she opposed the jailor already.
In other words, of you do not think sylvanas has already been redeemed in 9.1, you can not consider Vader redeemed, no matter if force ghost or not.

[ohwell]

I think you missed the last where Vader was not redeemed, he simply saved his son from being killed and then died. That is a good deed, but no redemption.

Besides that just no. There simply is no way to redeem her and there should be no attemp to. Its already annoying enough that all guilt gets put on her, while the rest of the horde walks free, but letting her off the hook is just too much.

I mean you seem to neglect the premise that there is no need to redeem her because we lack the perspective to understand she did nothing wrong in the scheme of things. In reality regardless of how they fail to stick the landing or not, the original idea of the Shadowlands story was set up to show that we were wrong to be opposing the Jailer because we were unaware of the truths he and Sylvanas know. Regardless of what she did, the untold truth could have been(could be) powerful enough that it didn't matter. If life and death is a cycle that is broken or causing everyone harm in the long run, her actions would have been more helpful or not mattered. We don't know. Looking from our perspective and ignorance she looks evil.

- - - Updated - - -

Some things you just can't come back from, the murder of innocent children and the attempted genocide of an entire race is one of them.


Even if she somehow saved the entire universe from destruction, she is still beyond redemption.

Stop saying this false statement. Attempted genocide requires either intent or success as she neither cared that it was night elves who died nor did she exterminate them. She did not attempt genocide nor succeed at it. The attack was purely military or for souls for the Jailer. It had nothing to do with who she killed hence it was not genocide.

[h4rr0d]

the attempted genocide of an entire race is one of them

Nuking 1 city =\= attempted genocide. I would even argue, that her goal wasn’t to get rid of NEs (though, if it was, could you really blame her? It’s NEs for fk sake.) Not her fault they decided to all live on one tree lile a fiant hippy family.

[Lady Atia]

The difference is that neither Illidan nor Kael'thas had any screentime.

At least in the case of Kael'thas, it's one thing to kill off a character, but it's another to just throw them under the bus without explanation.
They later added some backstory on how Kael'thas became an ally to the Legion, but that was chronicle, almost a decade later.

With Sylvanas, they had the enterity of Classic - WoD and especially in Legion & BfA, to set this up, which they did not.
At some point, you have to cut your losses and realize that the window of opportunity to tell a certain story is closed.

Sylvanas had enough screentime, the problem wasn't a lack of screentime, it's that the current refuse to accept that those elements that they're now working with weren't present in the past, so they force them in despite the obvious plotholes it creates.
It's as if the execs told "no, you can't retcon stuff because that's bad PR", but they simply wrote the same story anyway.

After Sylvanas taking up a prominent role in no less than three expansions trailers and this complete hamfisted way of forcing their story onto existing lore, they just have put Sylvanas away for good, anything that leaves the door open for a return is just going to get lambasted.
If Sylvanas dies at the of this, then she certainly wasn't "killed off too soon", because the story they're telling right now can be already generously described as "tacked on".

Than they should just kill off Thrall, Jaina and Baine alongside her - we already had enough Expansions with them.

[Dark-Zarupia]

Some of the greatest stories ever told are stories of great redemption precisely in the face of most people not believing they can be redeemed. Take Star Wars for example; people loved it also because the heart of the story was the redemption of the most evil person in the galaxy itself; he had murdered millions of people and nobody believed - not even the audience themselves - that he can be redeemed; yet Luke believed in him and he was redeemed and it was glorious.

Who is this redeeming person you're talking about? Darth Vader? His redemption was impactful because it made sense, he saved his son, sacrificing himself in the process. In just a few second his change of character was more glorious then the whole 'Sylvanas did an oopsie please forgive her arc"

[Kralljin]

Than they should just kill off Thrall, Jaina and Baine alongside her - we already had enough Expansions with them.

I don't mind if those characters are being relegated to a secondary position.

It's not like they're somehow relevant to the current story, you could take any of those characters out of Shadowlands, replace them with almost any character and the story would be the same.
The one exception may be Jaina because her ties to Uther may serve as a connecting point, but Thrall and especially Baine are just pointless.

Bear in mind, the sole reason why i'm saying "kill off Sylvanas" is because she's been frankly a villain since BfA.

[Dhrizzle]

Redemption requires the character to be redeemed to acknowledge their past mistakes and try to better themselves.

Sylvanas basically got kicked out of her body and an evil doppleganger took over while the true Sylvanas was in hibernation.

Now the evil one just got ctrl + deleted and the old Sylvanas has evil Sylvanas memories.
There is no character progression, Sylvanas was always good and now she basically wants to wash her name clean again.

Ah, the Jean Grey school of coming back as a goody again.

[Traveler Voltin]

Difference being that Arthas had no free will on top of having his soul stolen. First he was under control of the Lich King, then the helmet controlled him. Sylvanas was freed of the Lich Kings influence and still DECIDED to murder farmers in her lab to create a new blight.

Only now we are supposed to believe that that was the Jailers influence.

arthas always had free will. he was also a dick before taking up frostmourne.

- - - Updated - - -

Did Arthas or Sylvanas kill more people between the two of them, though?

i think arthas killed more.

[Vakna]

Nuking 1 city =\= attempted genocide. I would even argue, that her goal wasn’t to get rid of NEs (though, if it was, could you really blame her? It’s NEs for fk sake.) Not her fault they decided to all live on one tree lile a fiant hippy family.

Killing children is fine then I take it?

[Theangryone]

Redemption arcs take work. Vader sacrificed himself for his son and killed the emperor in the process. Vader showed no signs of development before that, did nothing to help anyone around him at anytime.

With Sylvanas, it’s the abrupt turnaround that is off putting. Not only that, according to the reveals, Sylvanas has not had any agency for quite awhile now. What was once a badass character is now being portrayed as a victim

The last almost 30 years of Warcraft story just got retconned to “the devil made me do it”

[Triceron]

It is the same as with the Sylvanas storyline - just because the authors tell you he is redeemed, does not mean he actually is. Vaders crimes and Sylvanas are actually quiet similar, so by that logic she would also be redeemed just because she opposed the jailor already.
In other words, of you do not think sylvanas has already been redeemed in 9.1, you can not consider Vader redeemed, no matter if force ghost or not.

That's exactly the case.

You can say she hasn't properly atoned for her crimes, but based on the story so far she's likely redeemed, meaning she is saved from being evil.

It's not really a matter of opinion here, it's a description of what is happening. That you personally don't think Vader or Sylvanas were redeemed doesn't mean they aren't. The author is the one that defines what is happening. We can disagree with the author's choices, but their choice is rendered factual and canonical as far as the story is regarded.

Same as Vader being redeemed. That is a factual part of the story. He is saved from evil. That is a matter of fact.

Whether you think he's properly atoned for his crimes is up to your opinion. Whether he turned to the side of good is not. We know he did because that is exactly what the story shows us.