The Real Reason behind the lore inconsistencies

[FelPlague]

Now compare the amount of torture dimensions ran by the Scarlets to those of Zovaal.

Very true, but i doubt zovaal just randomly tells his workers about everything he is doing.

[Dioporco]

Here is the real reason

[Utrrabbit]

Ok then I need to define by what I mean "incoherent".

Of course, through retroactive recontextualization (i.e. retcon), the lore writers can make anything seem coherent, e.g. they gave a reason why the Jailer's forces in WC3 were fighting with each other.

In that sense, they can give "retroactively" a reason for anything, e.g. they can say "Illidan was working for Sargeras all along" and they can make a couple of quest giving the "manipulative plot".

The thing is, if they gave a couple of quests on why "Illidan was working for Sargeras for 20.000 years all along and it was all an act so they could be together at the prison and plan their grand scheme"...

Would you consider that incoherent? I would.

Now, if you answer "No it would not be incoherent because they explained in 15 quests why Illidan was working for Sargeras all along", then we have a different definition of "incoherent". Which is fine

People seem to not understand nothing has ever been retconned. The "retcon" is in the mmo-c heads, because they do not like the story.

Name 1 thing that had been retconned. 1 thing.

The jailer being behind everything is NOT a retcon. It is a revelation, huge difference.

A retcon would be thar uther became lichking and arthas remained a paladin. Introducing new characters to reveal new plots is once again NOT retcon.

You may not like it and that is fine but calling it retcon is just blatantly ignorant.

- - - Updated - - -

no it was not made clear... that is literally not what happened my dude...

there is no "good" or "bad' sylvanas. there is only SYLVANAS. that fragment we see is just a part of her, a part that was locked away when she died catching up with what happened.
the sylvanas we play with in 9.2 is literally the exact same sylvanas as before, just realizing she has been used this entire time. and making sure the jailer is dealt and she gets her revenge, with before she gets her judgement.

Yeah you have the entire cinematic wrong like many. The "pure untainted" part of sylvanus' soul was watching the evil banshee basically go against everything she believed in. Why do you think she was so shocked.

I know it is difficult for people to comprehend narrative correctly on here. But you totally missed the message.

[Kallisto]

no, she was not forced to watch her do these evil things, she was literally talking to herself. she was RELIVING those moments, the cinematic even explains it that she is stuck her own soul tormenting itself.

think of it like this, if you grabbed a photo of you as a kid, then yanked that kid out of the photo and starting telling them of all the horrible shit that happened to you after that photo, how your dog died, your parents died, your grandparents died, your best friend killed themselves, how you had to give up on your dreams, fell in love, got married, she cheated on you, got divorced, have been alone since etc etc. that is still you, they are not some different person, not some "good side", that you, that will grew up to BE you, but they are all at once, learning of all the things that happened to them, and shit thats traumatizing.

The problem with them being one and the same completely contradicts alliance Halls of Reflection + Uther's afterlives cinematic. In HoR alliance side Uther's soul fragment is its very own sentient being, with own mind. Able to communicate freely and interact with people while Arthas is distracted. Warning Jaina and talking freely. At the same time the other fragment of Uther is in Bastion training to be Kyrian under Devos.

Sylvanas soul was split in the same way, the only logical viewpoint knowing what we seen in game and what happened in afterlives is that sorry Blizzard you can't pull "It's a fragment of your past." on us. You clearly have shown both soul fragments are unique individuals with own agency. So while the soul of Sylvanas that was held by Zovaal was inprisoned it was clearly it's own entity with free will and mind of her own.

Although you are right about one thing, people shouldn't just look at cinematics and not corresponding quest texts and in game dialogues. (Although Blizzard shouldn't put storyline in PTR or even have a PTR IMO)

[Loveliest]

People seem to not understand nothing has ever been retconned. The "retcon" is in the mmo-c heads, because they do not like the story.

Everything that does not match Chronicles is a retcon. Explaining things, changing setup and motivation and saying that Chronicles are from the pov of titans (even though it says on them what sort of compilation they are supposed to be) is a retcon.
So while I am not one of those who hate on the lore or yell how the lore was ruined, I also can't not admit that there are retcons. I have read all the existing lore and there are severe inconsistencies. Yes, you can go and explain and ignore some things, they are not horribly blatant retcons, but still retcons.

[Kehego]

Everything that does not match Chronicles is a retcon. Explaining things, changing setup and motivation and saying that Chronicles are from the pov of titans (even though it says on them what sort of compilation they are supposed to be) is a retcon.
So while I am not one of those who hate on the lore or yell how the lore was ruined, I also can't not admit that there are retcons. I have read all the existing lore and there are severe inconsistencies. Yes, you can go and explain and ignore some things, they are not horribly blatant retcons, but still retcons.

i mean they stated very early that it's **the perspective** of the titans and no truth is objective.

Take from that what you will.

[Mehrunes]

i mean they stated very early that it's **the perspective** of the titans and no truth is objective.

Take from that what you will.

They stated it only after the third one's already been out. For 18 months. Kinda the opposite of "very early".

Very true, but i doubt zovaal just randomly tells his workers about everything he is doing.

He had Sylvanas personally break Anduin's will. After she chatted with him on multiple occasions, where Anduin did inform her of the torture he's experiencing. And that's on top of both the Maw and Torghast being chock-ful of tortured souls.

People seem to not understand nothing has ever been retconned. The "retcon" is in the mmo-c heads, because they do not like the story.

Name 1 thing that had been retconned. 1 thing.

You mean like the origin of Nathrezim, once one of the original demon races spawned from the Nether? Nothing has been retconned indeed.

[Gaidax]

The real reason is because it's Warcraft and it always had a hodgepodge of lore to begin with anyway that they just went on with and changed based on their current needs. TBC alone shows that and that's why MOP/WOD happened - we need to woo eastern marker lets make China expansion, oh we plan a movie, lets make Draenor expansion.

If anything, they sort of try to make more sense of the whole mess recently-ish after they popped out Chronicles to try and make a decent base.

[Orby]

Are we getting titles from clicks bait youtubers lol. You do not have THE REAL REASON WHY, you are theorising. unless you have inside sources

[Mehrunes]

The problem with them being one and the same completely contradicts alliance Halls of Reflection + Uther's afterlives cinematic. In HoR alliance side Uther's soul fragment is its very own sentient being, with own mind. Able to communicate freely and interact with people while Arthas is distracted. Warning Jaina and talking freely. At the same time the other fragment of Uther is in Bastion training to be Kyrian under Devos.

Sylvanas soul was split in the same way, the only logical viewpoint knowing what we seen in game and what happened in afterlives is that sorry Blizzard you can't pull "It's a fragment of your past." on us. You clearly have shown both soul fragments are unique individuals with own agency. So while the soul of Sylvanas that was held by Zovaal was inprisoned it was clearly it's own entity with free will and mind of her own.

Although you are right about one thing, people shouldn't just look at cinematics and not corresponding quest texts and in game dialogues. (Although Blizzard shouldn't put storyline in PTR or even have a PTR IMO)

Besides, FelPlague's own example completely glosses over that the moment you "yank the kid out of the photo" you create a new entity. That, for the whole hypothetical to even function, has its own functioning mind. At which point the fact that they shared your past loses meaning, because now they are separate. And whether you want to call them "good side", "part of your past", "photo kid" or "Wadarkhu, the Destroyer of Worlds" is just semantics.

And the quest text does FelPlague's point no favors, because while the Sylvanas in them has memories of the Banshee Queen, she quite clearly has the outlook of the other paragon of justice Sylvanas, going as far as criticizing "her" decision to go after Arthas, a dangerous lunatic threatening everyone around him, without a binding court order.

[munkeyinorbit]

We all understand that the story is totally incoherent.

To go with the latest cinematics, take for example Sylvanas working for Kel' Thuzad's and Arthas' boss. Total absurdity.

Now many in the community come up with this reason: "well she did the genocide it because she thought Zovaal would set us all free".

The thing is, that is total headcanon.

For all we know, in game, from Zovaal's quotes and his history from the get go, is that he is totally evil ("mustache curling villain", as described).. he is evil in a cartoon-villain way, totally one-sided.

I.e. let me ask you a question, from your perspective, from what you've seen and know IN-GAME about Zovaal, did it shock you that at the the end of the he said "All shall serve me"? You can answer that on the poll.

Personally, I found it totally normal, because that is exactly what this guy has always been about. Hell, to advance his goals he (indirectly) mind-controlled Sylvanas herself via Arthas, as well as countless/millions others (in Maw and outside).

Therefore, how is Sylvanas "shocked", where she supposedly knew at least had our knowledge in respect of Zovaal, plus more.

The only reasonable (out of universe, breaking the 4th wall) explanation for Sylvanas' actions (and for all other characters' actions) is the following and it's clear as day:

The current lore team at Blizzard (Danuser and co.) is trying to quickly close the established Warcraft lore "chapter" (from WC3), so they can introduce their own new Characters/Lore etc.

To pursue that goal, they swiftly (in basically 1,2 patches) introduced totally new characters with no build-up, made them responsible for manipulating the whole story since before WC3 (so as to prop THEIR NEW CHARACTERS and DIMINISH the ALREADY ESTABLISHED characters from PREVIOUS LORE WRITERS)...

so they "could make the story their own".

In that process, and because it was done so quickly, A TON, literally HUNDREDS of MAJOR INCONSISTENCIES have emerged.

Do you think that the current lore writers had the right to do that, i.e. to rewrite in 1 patch the whole lore just to advance their own new characters in favour of the ones established by previous writers, so they could make the story "their own"?

Personally, I think that is way too egotistical. And it actually shows on how many people dislike/quit because of it.

Yes. They are completely justified to do whatever you're trying to say. It's their job. It's not egotistical for them to close story arcs, add new characters, remove ones they don't like, and start new stories. That's their fucking job.

Now calm down. I didn't say they did a good job doing it. It can be strongly argued that they did a terrible job. But people didn't quit because of the story. They quit because they weren't having fun anymore.

[Daronokk]

The real reason for lore inconsistencies is Blizzard is dead, and the posers in charge now are actively trying to destroy everything the previous employees built.

We all know how well that went with Star Wars.
Insert all kind of LGBT stuff and kill off all previous game characters and insert new ones, especially powerful women and transgenders. That'll teach the fanbase!

And then they wonder why nobody likes the franchise anymore. They took a massive dump on it and expect people to still like it. Blizzard can only go downward from here, and they're already at an all time low.

[Khaza-R]

No, I don't.

Not to sound too rude, but you really should first understand the lore before making a useless thread and poll. I know the lore can be confusing and contradictory at first, but for that there are plenty of videos on YouTube that explain the lore well.

People on MMOC and this thread are just really cringe when it comes to recent lore...

If something requires watching multiple 3rd party videos to make sense of it, then its by definition incoherent.

[Orby]

The real reason for lore inconsistencies is Blizzard is dead, and the posers in charge now are actively trying to destroy everything the previous employees built.

We all know how well that went with Star Wars.
Insert all kind of LGBT stuff and kill off all previous game characters and insert new ones, especially powerful women and transgenders. That'll teach the fanbase!

And then they wonder why nobody likes the franchise anymore. They took a massive dump on it and expect people to still like it. Blizzard can only go downward from here, and they're already at an all time low.

How many transgender leads are there by the way? Hardly forcing it :P

Also must you people always harp on about god damn Star Wars, does your playlist have a different song? And I agree yes Warcraft story is weak sauce right now but it isn't anythign to do with your reasoning. Its bad because its just badly constructed and nonsensical. As well as Shadowlands for me just being a really dull expansion with a theme that doesn't interest me (but that last bit is personal)

[Giannis-GR]

Guys, I think we are all lowering our standards.

We have to remember that these people are getting paid 6 figures (in some cases way more) and their ONLY job is to write the GENERAL DIRECTION of the STORY, not even the day to day quests (which admittedly require a ton of working hours).

Their payroll corresponds to that e.g. of a lawyer in a big law firm, a doctor, a chief financial officer of a SME etc...

All these people (in case of e.g. lawyers/ CFOs) are processing TONS of absurdly complex paperwork each day and they make sure that 100% is compliant with different laws, regulations, multiple jurisdictions etc..

Now why have we lowered our standards so much, that we excuse that the highest paid writers in the gaming industry cannot seem to remember the story they wrote 1 patch prior?

It would be a totally different story if we had let's say a small indie game, where the team of developers/coders also wrote the story.. then an argument like "Don't put that much emphasis bro just enjoy the game" would make much more sense and be justified.

And to take it one step further, there have been stories on how many of those writers got and KEEP their jobs in Blizzard, due to personal relationships etc.

So if we us fans of the franchise cannot even criticise their work, then we might as well call it a day.

There are serious issues with this company. The stuff that has come to publicity about the toxic environment and abuse is not entirely irrelevant to the way they handle the lore.

Some people think they are untouchable (pun intended) irrespective of their quality of work, just due to personal relationships and corporate politics.

Now it's fine if some people think the story is going smooth and we are all delusional or "are brainwashed by Youtubers". Myself I try and cheer at every new patch/cinematic and hope that they produce something good, because we are all invested (emotionally, except for people who own also shares here lol) in the success of the game/story.

[FelPlague]

The problem with them being one and the same completely contradicts alliance Halls of Reflection + Uther's afterlives cinematic. In HoR alliance side Uther's soul fragment is its very own sentient being, with own mind. Able to communicate freely and interact with people while Arthas is distracted. Warning Jaina and talking freely. At the same time the other fragment of Uther is in Bastion training to be Kyrian under Devos.

Sylvanas soul was split in the same way, the only logical viewpoint knowing what we seen in game and what happened in afterlives is that sorry Blizzard you can't pull "It's a fragment of your past." on us. You clearly have shown both soul fragments are unique individuals with own agency. So while the soul of Sylvanas that was held by Zovaal was inprisoned it was clearly it's own entity with free will and mind of her own.

Although you are right about one thing, people shouldn't just look at cinematics and not corresponding quest texts and in game dialogues. (Although Blizzard shouldn't put storyline in PTR or even have a PTR IMO)

Yes, but sylvanas's soul was trapped, not free like uthers was, and that one was simply acting on instinct, not really its own being on its own.

yes the soul may have been its own entity with free will and a mind of its own, however it was never able to do or see anything, as it was always trapped.

- - - Updated - - -

Guys, I think we are all lowering our standards.

We have to remember that these people are getting paid 6 figures (in some cases way more) and their ONLY job is to write the GENERAL DIRECTION of the STORY, not even the day to day quests (which admittedly require a ton of working hours).

Their payroll corresponds to that e.g. of a lawyer in a big law firm, a doctor, a chief financial officer of a SME etc...

LOLOLOLOL WHAT!?
"these people are getting paid 6 figures, in some cases way more, and their only job is to write the general direction"

You think they are getting paid WAAAAAY fucking more then they are, holy shit lol.
i would love to see where your fucking source is for them getting paid more then any of those jobs. cause they are not getting paid that much

[Jackstraw]

Yes, but sylvanas's soul was trapped, not free like uthers was, and that one was simply acting on instinct, not really its own being on its own.

yes the soul may have been its own entity with free will and a mind of its own, however it was never able to do or see anything, as it was always trapped.

For no reason at all.
In the Halls of Reflection only Uther's soul is free to roam. Nary a peep of Sylvanas'.
So either the Light intervened to save Uther neutering Frostmourne's soul split mcguffin, or Frostmourne split the soul and Sylvanas' never got captured since she got turned entirely into a banshee, and a petty one at that, continuously repossessing her own corpse to hold on to her past life.
Which was her incarnation up until the return and repurposing of the Ranger General. Which has been retconned already, because alongside the info we have and the Dark Mirror short story the Ranger General was extremely skilled, but quite petty, and not at all this presented paragon of justice incapable of even beginning to understand what the Banshee Queen did.

LOLOLOLOL WHAT!?
"these people are getting paid 6 figures, in some cases way more, and their only job is to write the general direction"

You think they are getting paid WAAAAAY fucking more then they are, holy shit lol.
i would love to see where your fucking source is for them getting paid more then any of those jobs. cause they are not getting paid that much

https://www.salary.com/research/sala...iter-salary/ca

65k is the median income for a family of four in the USA. Make of that what you will.

The point however is that this lore is baffling. Pelagos is a non point, the line about him having been alive as a woman and afterlived as a man never really got dropped anywhere outside the Kyrian campaign. Pelagos is Pelagos, and overall I'd call his arc decent.
It's everything pertaining the legacy of Warcraft that's batshit crazy.

If the writers want to redo everything to unshackle themselves from the admittedly burdening expectations that come with twenty years of character then by all means I support that.

[Dioporco]

Yes. They are completely justified to do whatever you're trying to say. It's their job. It's not egotistical for them to close story arcs, add new characters, remove ones they don't like, and start new stories. That's their fucking job.

Now calm down. I didn't say they did a good job doing it. It can be strongly argued that they did a terrible job. But people didn't quit because of the story. They quit because they weren't having fun anymore.

A lot of people quit for the story, not everybody want to spam m+ h24 for the same trinket but higher itmlvl, hence why the exodus towards FF14

WoW is a mmo rpg while ff14 is a rpg mmo, if wow fails the rpg part and the mmo isnt already that great, is pretty self explainatory



So tecnhically is their job to make people hook on the story.

[FelPlague]

For no reason at all.
In the Halls of Reflection only Uther's soul is free to roam. Nary a peep of Sylvanas'.
So either the Light intervened to save Uther neutering Frostmourne's soul split mcguffin, or Frostmourne split the soul and Sylvanas' never got captured since she got turned entirely into a banshee, and a petty one at that, continuously repossessing her own corpse to hold on to her past life.
Which was her incarnation up until the return and repurposing of the Ranger General. Which has been retconned already, because alongside the info we have and the Dark Mirror short story the Ranger General was extremely skilled, but quite petty, and not at all this presented paragon of justice incapable of even beginning to understand what the Banshee Queen did.



https://www.salary.com/research/sala...iter-salary/ca

65k is the median income for a family of four in the USA. Make of that what you will.

The point however is that this lore is baffling. Pelagos is a non point, the line about him having been alive as a woman and afterlived as a man never really got dropped anywhere outside the Kyrian campaign. Pelagos is Pelagos, and overall I'd call his arc decent.
It's everything pertaining the legacy of Warcraft that's batshit crazy.

If the writers want to redo everything to unshackle themselves from the admittedly burdening expectations that come with twenty years of character then by all means I support that.

you know why? cause sylvanas was still alive. so that soul was trapped away, uther was killed, his soul was now entirely disconnected.

and yeah they are not getting paid "Well above 6 figures"


also idk if you know, but seeing a person commit mass genocide and thinking that is horrible is not a "paragon of justice" thing, thats a "basic fucking humanity" thing.

he freaking the fuck out at seeing a copy of herself commit mass murder is not "special' thats a fucking normal thing.

[VinceVega]

He is called "the jailor" not "the jailed" using fucking DOMINATION magic...

if blizz would not have made it so baltantly obvious i would not be so annoyed about the stupidity of sylvannas... but come on...

The rest is fine and would have worked in my opinion. But this... seriously....