[SPOILER]We finally lost her..Why let Horde lose another character?

[MikeBogina]

Dude, the soul split only means that there was a part of her soul frozen at the time of her death.

All that Banshee Sylvanas did was of her own free will -manipulated as anyone can be- but HER choice.

Arthas literally had the helm of DOMINATION exerting dominion over him. Sylvanas, once she was freed from Arthas control, was FREE.

You can't get mad if you're misunderstanding the plot. That's not the story's fault.

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Sylvanas isn't getting tortured, she's just gonna have to redo the "Return Lost Souls" quest until the Maw is empty.

While I agree that Sylvanas' undead persona had more freedom than Arthas did, it's still an undead persona that almost all people afflicted with undeath suffer.

take the Knights of the Ebon Blade. They had personality and willingly served the Lich King until he admitted he sent them to die. That's all it took for them to turn on him was self preservation. They're still dark dudes who kill and raise undead whenever they want, purging a bunch of dragons and raising them aswell in Legion. Sylvanas was raised and immediately tormented thus she was always against Arthas and the Scourge, but they held a tight leash on her actions unlike the deathknights. Darian and the Death knights that served the former Lich King who turned on him when he admitted he sent them to die are still being controlled by dark asshole versions of themselves and have yet to be freed from it and still kinda evil.

The evil undead persona isn't the real person. Regardless if they're free of the Lich King or independent, they are still being affected by dark Necrotic magic that has twisted them. Very very few retain their personalities, either because they were already evil or something like a strong faith in the light, or raised without the taint of necromancy like Calia. Not that I want to defend Sylvanas in any way, but this is something ive been arguing on here for many years and Blizzard seems to agree(except for arthas which they still condemn cause it would ruin him or something)

[Syegfryed]

Yeah he sounds like a tertiary character but if he was malfs replacement for a time then i guess hes about saurfang levels maybe?

Saurfang was much more important because there is no more orcs left to assume leadership, all of then died, are senile or have no balls. While Fandral had no real meaning cause he was just warming the chair for malfurion inevitable comeback.

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The horror of the thousand lost fictional lives is truly worth this level of emotional investment. As we know, anyone who unironically plays a video game as the fiction faction that isn't yours in the fictional video game is a bad person in real life..

The weird thing about this is how the alliance actually not just against the horde, but against itself.

there is way too many people in the alliance who don't want their faction to be killers/murderers or bad guys ever, they want the good faction of heroes, every time blizz try to deviate from that they shower the forums with arguments.

I still remember clear as today, in BfA when they made the vol'dun invasion, PTR ahd alliance coming full force, burning vulpera and horde alike, vulpera who were doing the war trade with the horde btw. While some people liked, majority cried how this isn't alliance, how they are not like this, they are good guys and only fight who fight then, blablabla, that they changed the quest

But you can still find some burned vulperas lying around.

[Le Conceptuel]

The weird thing about this is how the alliance actually not just against the horde, but against itself.

there is way too many people in the alliance who don't want their faction to be killers/murderers or bad guys ever, they want the good faction of heroes, every time blizz try to deviate from that they shower the forums with arguments.

I still remember clear as today, in BfA when they made the vol'dun invasion, PTR ahd alliance coming full force, burning vulpera and horde alike, vulpera who were doing the war trade with the horde btw. While some people liked, majority cried how this isn't alliance, how they are not like this, they are good guys and only fight who fight then, blablabla, that they changed the quest

But you can still find some burned vulperas lying around.

I honestly want my Alliance characters to be the villains for once, frankly, or at least get to be grittier heroes. I actually want to go full Vietnam on some Horde citizens with my Lightforged—it feels odd that my military brat space goat whose only life experiences have consisted of an objectively black-and-white war that would've painted her perspective on all war thereafter to not really have much of a regard for things like "war crimes" and "civilian casualties".

On the other end, I also do like getting to have a Blood Elf Paladin who is a member of a troubled but generally redeemed race finally get to stand on the side of justice in war for once.

As someone who's oscillated, I prefer the more violent and authoritarian Alliance (though not outright Blue Garrosh) and a more defensive and sincere "defensive pact"-type Horde.

[Syegfryed]

As someone who's oscillated, I prefer the more violent and authoritarian Alliance (though not outright Blue Garrosh) and a more defensive and sincere "defensive pact"-type Horde.

I like more or less like that too, one of the reasons i stop playing alliance.

to me perfect time of factions was cataclysm, both factions going full on war, not caring about nonsense or peace bs

[Le Conceptuel]

I like more or less like that too, one of the reasons i stop playing alliance.

to me perfect time of factions was cataclysm, both factions going full on war, not caring about nonsense or peace bs

This is going to make me sound far older than I am (I need to emphasize that I was around a year old when Warcraft III released), but my idea of the factions is at its best in WarCraft III. The Alliance simply had the most identity then, in my opinion—they were far more of a dark fantasy take than the modern traditional fantasy. It felt more like a dark parody of the standard Fantasy Alliance—it was very interesting and building on the tropes. It wasn't as hostile as much of modern dark fantasy, too, which mostly just boils down to "lol take it all but turn it upside-down". The Alliance were still very noble, but their darkness was just as accentuated as the Horde—it was very much the values and tendencies of the Alliance of the era that made Arthas' entire arc happen.

The egotism, the imperialism, and the ambition are to me the best incarnation of Humans in WoW—they've ever since not had much of an identity.

[october breeze]

The horror of the thousand lost fictional lives is truly worth this level of emotional investment. As we know, anyone who unironically plays a video game as the fiction faction that isn't yours in the fictional video game is a bad person in real life.

WoW's faction system could make for a fascinating Ph.D paper for a psychology student—they could look at how the faction system in this game has developed into an aggressive polarization equivalent to real-life parties, or at least football and other sports teams.

Jesus freaking Christ... tf you talking about?
so much sophistry out of nothing!

Don't overthink it mate. OP is unhappy about Horde leaders being thrown into bin and suggests the same fate for Alliance leaders, for sake of a change. I merely reminded him of how Alliance been treated and as part of fair trade, Horde so shall suffer the same.

Who tf said anything about real freaking people? You high or something?

[Le Conceptuel]

merely reminded him of how Alliance been treated and as part of fair trade, Horde so shall suffer the same.

Who tf said anything about real freaking people? You high or something?

I was using your personal melodrama as a segue, mostly. It just brought that into my mind. Your melodrama is significantly more subdued than some, but still reminds me of how extraordinarily hyperinvested people could get, especially back during BfA.

[Vandren]

The weird thing about this is how the alliance actually not just against the horde, but against itself.

there is way too many people in the alliance who don't want their faction to be killers/murderers or bad guys ever, they want the good faction of heroes, every time blizz try to deviate from that they shower the forums with arguments.

I still remember clear as today, in BfA when they made the vol'dun invasion, PTR ahd alliance coming full force, burning vulpera and horde alike, vulpera who were doing the war trade with the horde btw. While some people liked, majority cried how this isn't alliance, how they are not like this, they are good guys and only fight who fight then, blablabla, that they changed the quest

But you can still find some burned vulperas lying around.

This just goes back to how much of a complete afterthought Alliance writing is and how the very structure of their organisation makes absolutely no sense.

A lot of people, myself included WANT some grey areas in the Alliance. You can still have them hold the moral high ground in most cases being the defensive faction in all this but still have them less than perfect. I mean look at what you have; Xenophobic tree elves, insular dwarves (who just got out of their own civil war), reckless technocratic gnomes, humans who were so naive they let a black dragon within arm's length of the crown prince, a bunch of werewolves on the knife's edge of bloodlust and PTSD and actual extra-terrestrial aliens of questionable linage. All of this lead by a literal teenager despite the fact other racial leaders in this very faction have hundreds, if not thousands of years of combat experience. If anything, the Alliance should be more dysfunctional than the Horde.

The problem is though, while this would lead to some interesting tales of slow, hard won trust forging an alliance based on common values and overall goals of peace and prosperity, no one from Blizzard actually seems to LIKE writing for the Alliance. As a result, time and time again, they seem to be relegated to the role of a first-grader being made play a tree at the school play. When some of the "morally grey" writing for the Alliance actually pops up, it is either laughably inconsequential or immediately retconned/counter-written back so no one has to put any effort writing actual long-term consequences for these actions. Jaina is on a blood-sworn vendetta warpath? She drops that whole act like a moody teenager in the space of 2-3 lines of dialogue. The Alliance actually score a win for once in the Battle of Dazar'alor? Yeah but nothing actually happens, the island is left unconquered and a whole bunch of people die for pretty much nothing whatsoever. And don't get me started on Tyrande's flailing around for two entire expansions that amounts to precisely nothing other than kill-stealing one of the most unlikable characters in WoW's history.

It is little wonder the Alliance playerbase is conflicted on the actual identity of the faction because it virtually has none. They are there to react to whatever the Horde does and are often the tertiary background characters even then. I think the intro to BFA was about the only time the Alliance writing actually had some teeth to it and that was knocked out with a sledge hammer in the space of a single content patch.

[Dioporco]

I don't get what point you're trying to make about the Christian heaven and reincarnation.

the part about "families getting separated in the afterlifes" is just bs because you assume that it should be like a christian heaven where everybody are there happly.




which isnt the case, shadowlands are more similar to Alighieri Purgatory, and all the assumption about sylvanas getting mad after a random tour, how if the jailer is in the maw?, doesnt make a lot of sense

[Shadowferal]

Fandral was never established as a villain. He was a no-nonsense, don't-waste-my-time kind of character, but he was never evil. Until Cataclysm.

I remember him as a bit of a militant dick in the beginning back when I was still doing quests in Darnassus. (Morrowgrain Research quest in particular)

[Syegfryed]

This is going to make me sound far older than I am (I need to emphasize that I was around a year old when Warcraft III released), but my idea of the factions is at its best in WarCraft III. The Alliance simply had the most identity then, in my opinion—they were far more of a dark fantasy take than the modern traditional fantasy. It felt more like a dark parody of the standard Fantasy Alliance—it was very interesting and building on the tropes. It wasn't as hostile as much of modern dark fantasy, too, which mostly just boils down to "lol take it all but turn it upside-down". The Alliance were still very noble, but their darkness was just as accentuated as the Horde—it was very much the values and tendencies of the Alliance of the era that made Arthas' entire arc happen.

The egotism, the imperialism, and the ambition are to me the best incarnation of Humans in WoW—they've ever since not had much of an identity.

i mean, WC3/WC2 will always be the perfect time of warcraft imo, where the factions were more well established by the RTS format. What i liked the most is the sense of mirror, in WC2 you had humans+dwarves+elves+gnomes, all pink skinned races, then you get horde with orcs+goblins+trolls+ogres, all but ogres were green-skinned races.

The sense of mirror is how youg et one race for each faction who ahte the other one and want then dead, this is what brought most of the good quests about factions imo, but this emirror effect is slowly going away because of the peace bs talk and later race additions.

Thats why the best interaction of factions in WOW is Cataclysm, the sense of mirror was there still, you had mirrored quests and NPCs, you had fights like forsaken x worgen, dwarves x tauren, goblins x gnomes, etc etc, this made the game more alive and diverse, the races had some individuality,, today is just humans elves and some monster bs we fight along the way.

Yep lordaeron si much better than stormwind will ever be, this is a problem they could not solve and went int he wrong direction.

First of all, the stormwind crest is too complicated, the lrodaeron and the alliance crest using it was simple and effective, just like the horde one.

Lordaeron was a broad kingdom much more "darker" and ruthless, from what we saw in the RTS with Arthas and later Garithos. it had the sense of "by any means necessary".

Im pretty sure before wc3, every human kingdom was specialized in one thing, like navy, cavalry, paladins, and so on, they killed off most of the kingdoms and give all their trades to stormwind, trying to pain then as best human kingdom, simple didn't work, gave the air of mary sue to then.

Now, they can't simple change the logo/crest of the alliance at this point, but they can revive the old kingdoms and give then identity, so players can indetify with then, put stormwind as "home" and other kingdoms as small bases, mirror the horde with orgrimmar as "home" and the other clans as "small bases.

In fact, they should do that with other races as well, focusing ont heir organizations, tribes and clans, giving then dientity, variation and chocies is the spice the game need, so evne if you don't like one race, you can like one organization/tribe/clan/kingdom, or if you liked that race, but never liked their flavour, you could now play then.

Lets say, you like humans like myself, but you don't like stormwind, now we have those many kingdoms to pick from, ‎Stromgarde, which is something that im found off.

Worgens could have different subfactions from Genn and other more "wild" worgens.

It always boils down to worldbuilding and having love/itnerest for the game

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A lot of people, myself included WANT some grey areas in the Alliance. You can still have them hold the moral high ground in most cases being the defensive faction in all this but still have them less than perfect. I mean look at what you have; Xenophobic tree elves, insular dwarves (who just got out of their own civil war), reckless technocratic gnomes, humans who were so naive they let a black dragon within arm's length of the crown prince, a bunch of werewolves on the knife's edge of bloodlust and PTSD and actual extra-terrestrial aliens of questionable linage. All of this lead by a literal teenager despite the fact other racial leaders in this very faction have hundreds, if not thousands of years of combat experience. If anything, the Alliance should be more dysfunctional than the Horde.´

A lot of people want grey alliance, many more don't, like i said, is a problem fo alliance x alliance, and who blizzard listen to. Alliance players want a peaceful well tied and firendly, good-two-shoes alliance.

Just like blizzard decide to listen tot he forsaken/elf part of the horde in legion/bfa and we got this hot garbage with sylvanas.

They have to just ignore what majority of the playerbase want and actually write something good, simple as that.

The problem is though, while this would lead to some interesting tales of slow, hard won trust forging an alliance based on common values and overall goals of peace and prosperity, no one from Blizzard actually seems to LIKE writing for the Alliance. As a result, time and time again, they seem to be relegated to the role of a first-grader being made play a tree at the school play.

??? that is horde side as well, seems like most of the devs/writers don't actually like the game, its just a work for then, this is something we see time and time again.

[Ogren]

I think with cross faction being on its way, might as well just get invested in a better IP with less saccharine Anduinified garbage, such as Warhammer where even the humans and wood elves are extremely badass and make anything in WoW look like creampuffs.

[Raven]

Retcons are never a good idea.

Except they can be, not all change to lore is bad and sometimes you need to make changes to be able to tell more stories.

[Smallfruitbat]

Except they can be, not all change to lore is bad and sometimes you need to make changes to be able to tell more stories.

Or you could use some creativity and come up with something fresh in a pretty well established universe.

[Shadowferal]

Except they can be, not all change to lore is bad and sometimes you need to make changes to be able to tell more stories.

I've never read or seen any that was a good idea. The perfect example being WoD.
This particular is funny-sad:

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Saurfang was much more important because there is no more orcs left to assume leadership, all of then died, are senile or have no balls. While Fandral had no real meaning cause he was just warming the chair for malfurion inevitable comeback.

If having no balls disqualify’s characters/leaders then malf really isn’t any replacement for staghelm nor has any night elf character ever been because he was the only no nonsense problem solver who didn’t waste time crying about trees and deers.

[hecpercu]

Ok si with that in check, can you pliz fire Danuser and all the writting team and replace it with people that played the game atleast once? Thanks

[Soon-TM]

Here is a deal for you.
Let us Alliance, massacare the Horde, kill in thousands, burn cities to the ground, kill all civilians with it too...

In return you can have Velen.

You happy with this? 'Cus thats exactly what we got!

As long as one of your leaders bombs one of your own cities into smithereens and you are forced to raid your own capital not once, but TWICE, sure. Deal accepted.

[Ogren]

Worgen vs. Undead as mirror factions was always going to fail because the moment they put Worgen into the Night Elf leveling path they were going to switch narratives entirely and end up just being sidekicks helping the Night Elves fight Orcs to save the trees. One would say Worgen should have shared Silverpine so there would be more conflict from the Alliance PoV to see what their own new race was capable of, but many players and Blizzard themselves were vehement against that due to the concern of zone balance at the time.

Legitimate concern all the same, but it does need to be remembered that it also assured Worgen would be dead on arrival.

[Dejiko]

It`s a shame really, nothing short of decapitation in public is good enough for Sylvanas.
The Horde should lose her, after all she has been lost for some time.
Bring back consequences for a change, put someone`s head on a pike, parade it around proudly.