Why is mindlessly easy the default for wow?

[Millyraynge]

I hate this misconception that games have to be difficult in order to be good. WoW isn't Dark Souls and thank god for that.

Average black and white answer. WoW offers pretty much no resistance outside of raids or high m+. No one asked for Elden Ring difficulty. A difficulty compared to returnal pre nerfed would be just fine.

[Rozz]

I don't really see a linear difficulty curve as the same thing as a sudden shift from easy dungeons to harder ones with a rather empty endgame like cata is.

There are middle grounds between the two rather then wildly swinging from one end of the spectrum to the next.

I would also say things change over decades... casual gamers don't really buy games anymore they get them for free. I regret saying elden ring though... its tainted this conversation by letting people harp on dark souls when I only mentioned the top few most popular games on steam.

Well a more linear curve could be seen with Naz'Jatar I guess. For the first 3 weeks, people were non-stop sobbing that the game got hard because they couldn't faceroll open world mobs without new gear.

Tbf it's hard to do something linear based off of skill/ game knowledge(outside of instance difficulty spikes) because each area has to be accessible to new/ returning players.

A true end game zone that requires you to use all your classes' knowledge and skill (you "learned along the way" ) would be hard to enforce, because most players can coast through avoiding content that challenges them or can get carried. So you'd get 90% of players hitting a wall and having a bad experience because there'd be no warning or preparation in game.

I know you regret referencing it, but in Elden Ring you are forced to learn or find a way around tough situations to continue on. There isn't anything like that in Wow to reach max level or end game zones.

[Celement]

Well a more linear curve could be seen with Naz'Jatar I guess. For the first 3 weeks, people were non-stop sobbing that the game got hard because they couldn't faceroll open world mobs without new gear.

Tbf it's hard to do something linear based off of skill/ game knowledge(outside of instance difficulty spikes) because each area has to be accessible to new/ returning players.

A true end game zone that requires you to use all your classes' knowledge and skill (you "learned along the way" ) would be hard to enforce, because most players can coast through avoiding content that challenges them or can get carried. So you'd get 90% of players hitting a wall and having a bad experience because there'd be no warning or preparation in game.

I know you regret referencing it, but in Elden Ring you are forced to learn or find a way around tough situations to continue on. There isn't anything like that in Wow to reach max level or end game zones.

I don't think it needs to be that steep of a curve. Strictly speaking until mythic 20 most players dont use their full kite... most people dont know cc can be used as an interupt in aoe for example.

I would lean more towards... a skyrim level of difficulty if that makes sense. If you are really far off it should be clear that something is wrong.

[Drench]

Because it appeals more to the masses. If you keep it at toddler on a phone levels for 90% of the content they can just boot up netflix and give them sub money to not have actual content.


Wow is the kardashian of the gaming world. Everyone knows they suck, but somehow they are still popular/make tons of money and they are only famous because of something thing they did many years ago.

[Adamas102]

Can you prove any of this beyond the outliner of minecraft...?

Looking at the current top of the charts of steam it really feels like you should be saying " you" not "most people".

Most people seem to be in highly competitive games or rather in depth survival games alongside rts...

I think you created an imagined majority that agrees with you.

He's not wrong. In fact, it's true for ALL gaming (PC, console, mobile, board, table top, sport, arcade, CCG, etc), always has been. Most people play games casually with no desire for challenge that requires optimization to overcome. Hell, most people don't even really care that much about winning when it comes to playing games.

You can point to lists of popular games all you like, but without in depth data on HOW all those people are playing it's pretty much useless and it certainly doesn't contradict what has been true of gaming since, well, forever. And frankly, VERY few video games are really that difficult outside of playing at a competitive tournament level. Most people have the motor skills to at least participate and often succeed at most games given a bit of time. Even with WoW the highest of difficulties outside of PVP relies more on repetition and group consistency rather than individual button mashing prowess and big brain strategizing. Shit, I'd rank a game of high difficulty sudoku at a higher challenge rating than WoW.

To your original point, I'd highly doubt people who would have fun playing the more difficult content in WoW are turned off by a relatively easy entry into the game via questing. The amount of time spent there is peanuts compared to the amount of time those players would spend on endgame difficulties. On the flip side, making the introductory content more difficult would almost certainly have turned off a large portion of the casual player base that skyrocketed WoW's popularity.

[Stormwolf64]

I am planning on building a car that is fueled by irony but had ran out of fuel. Thank you for your generous donation.

Why would there be fuel in a car you havent even started to build yet?

---

Naturally this discussion devolved in the typical braindead fashion you see often enough on this board. Someone mentions that people play dark souls and naturally the other side of the discussion takes this as a want to have 1:1 souls difficulty in wow. How stupid can people be?

Yes, the game is too easy. This has been a common complaint for probably a decade already. Should it be DS difficult? Naturally not. mmo's have a lot of diverse players and blizzard needs to design around that fact. Should it be 2 bear pull = dead? Of course not that either, but you should be required to sit down and eat a lot more while questing and leveling, and certain times be required to pull or generally play cleverly.

[Soon-TM]

characters have limited toolkit and even more limited gear to select from

This is a fair point, that all these mUh DifF1CuLtYz folks seem to be forgetting about. For example, I'm all for caster mobs being a pain in the ass if you let them freecast. However there are several classes that get their interrupts and/or CC relatively late during levelling (e.g. Pally), so what are they supposed to do? Facetanking damage that should be avoided by interrupting/CC'ing? Nice gameplay lessons right there lol.

[Biomega]

The main problem isn't that things are easy, it's that things are boring.

Sometimes those two are related, as in too easy = boring. But not only is that not always the case, it's also not always fixed by merely inverting it into difficult = not boring. It's not as simple as that.

[m4Zzo928]

Most players race to become overpowered, and then ask why everything is so easy lol.

[Soon-TM]

Not sure how Blizz thinks this is sustainable. It's not that fun to have the majority of your raiding population just hard stuck at a skill wall that they can never climb no matter how long the tier is.

You're supposed to Git Gud™ or pay for carries. If the carry is paid via WoW token, even better (for Blizz ofc).

[Linkedblade]

I think it is alienating a lot of people from the game. I see a lot of people in newcomer chat being perplexed why there are not any dangerous enemies in the game. After awkwardly explaining that they likely wont see any for the first twelve hours of play( assuming boosted a lot more without it) they seem to loose all enthusiasm to play.

With most of the most popular games for pc being harder games like counter-strike, mobas, elden ring and other challenging games shouldn't wow try to challenge players before heroic raids or mythic raiding?

( grabbed the games from steams most played not a perfect nor complete sample but a sizable one.)

Wow is a western mmo after all. The point of wow is to allow anyone access to as much of the content as possible to retain subscriptions. The difficult/dedication content is there if you want to consume it. M+, arenas, rbgs, cutting edge raids.

The most popular PC games are also some of the most popular console games. But most people that play video games don't want time commitments. Take the mobas or royale games. You need to kill 10-15 minutes? You click a button and you're in queue and a game quickly. It's not necessarily a matter of difficulty as it is time.

[Yriel]

I think it is alienating a lot of people from the game. I see a lot of people in newcomer chat being perplexed why there are not any dangerous enemies in the game. After awkwardly explaining that they likely wont see any for the first twelve hours of play( assuming boosted a lot more without it) they seem to loose all enthusiasm to play.

With most of the most popular games for pc being harder games like counter-strike, mobas, elden ring and other challenging games shouldn't wow try to challenge players before heroic raids or mythic raiding?

( grabbed the games from steams most played not a perfect nor complete sample but a sizable one.)

Because that is the reason of its success. When WoW released all other MMOs (Like DaoC, EQ or AC) were really hard from the get-go. You couldn't really kill much solo and even if you could, you had to rest for an eternity after each fight.
Then came WoW where leveling was super easy, barely an inconvenience. You could even level healers solo to max level. And most people left the other games and joined WoW.
And now you ask why WoW is not like those other games?

[shise]

There´s a very absurd contrast indeed.

They will nerf anything out of raids that requires minimal use of a brain (for example, having to use CC in a dungeon, God forbid...).

And then, on the completely opposite pole, raids are ultra hard due to the layers of added complexity, which only top guilds formed by people who can afford to play 30 hours a day can defeat.

BC HC´s and Cata release HC´s is where it should be at for open world content and dungeons. Raids should tune down a notch.

[Kralljin]

This is a fair point, that all these mUh DifF1CuLtYz folks seem to be forgetting about. For example, I'm all for caster mobs being a pain in the ass if you let them freecast. However there are several classes that get their interrupts and/or CC relatively late during levelling (e.g. Pally), so what are they supposed to do? Facetanking damage that should be avoided by interrupting/CC'ing? Nice gameplay lessons right there lol.

So, why not just give them their interrupts early?

It's not like that it's going to break the game if a Ret Pally learns Rebuke at 15 instead of 27.
Disregarding that you could also place these mobs in locations where going line of sight is entirely possible.

[cparle87]

I agree with this. WoW does not need to be Dark Souls or Elden Ring, however it does need more challenges in the game outside of high keys and mythic raiding.

For example Rare Mobs and Elite mobs in the open world should be very challenging. Instead of just fall over and die and give me a mount plz mobs. World bosses should be very challenging, instead instant invite, dead 5 secs later, get loot or no loot and leave. I have said this for years now, this system is dog crap and is a part of why I am not subbed anymore.

Have you tried fighting a rare elite in Zereth Mortis solo outside of tank spec? They'll kick your shit in pretty quickly. I see that worm Akkaris chunk people in as little as 4 seconds if they don't get out of his suction whirlwind. And world bosses take way longer than 5 seconds to down.

Oh wait, nevermind. You just said you're not subbed anymore, possibly for years. Carry on then with uninformed opinions.

- - - Updated - - -

Why should time spent ever matter beyond extremes of maybe under a minute?

Taking forever to do anything isn't a virtue I've ever heard of...

EQ had raid bosses that took 6+ hours to fight. Not a whole raid, just one boss. And the memes of hundreds of hours of raiding to get mats to do dozens of hours of crafting to make one item had to come from somewhere.

[deenman]

I agree with this. WoW does not need to be Dark Souls or Elden Ring, however it does need more challenges in the game outside of high keys and mythic raiding.

For example Rare Mobs and Elite mobs in the open world should be very challenging. Instead of just fall over and die and give me a mount plz mobs. World bosses should be very challenging, instead instant invite, dead 5 secs later, get loot or no loot and leave. I have said this for years now, this system is dog crap and is a part of why I am not subbed anymore.

making outdoor encounters difficult is tricky,there are to many factors that are in play that arent an issue in a controled instanced enviroment

unless you just want them to hit hard and be bullet sponges,but that wouldnt be difficult just annoying

[Blackmist]

Because mindless is the default for players.

[chiddie]

I agree with this. WoW does not need to be Dark Souls or Elden Ring, however it does need more challenges in the game outside of high keys and mythic raiding.

For example Rare Mobs and Elite mobs in the open world should be very challenging. Instead of just fall over and die and give me a mount plz mobs. World bosses should be very challenging, instead instant invite, dead 5 secs later, get loot or no loot and leave. I have said this for years now, this system is dog crap and is a part of why I am not subbed anymore.

Rares can’t be challenging because the combat system is not meant to provide solo challenges that revolve around skill and not around gear.

You can’t dodge, you can’t cover, spells and skills have tracking, you can’t block, you can’t parry and repost, most damage is unavoidable, you can just hope you deal enough damage to kill the mob before he does enough damage to kill you. Take a standard big colossus mob in ZM, unless you’re godly geared or you are a pet class they will smash you because they hit like a truck and you can’t avoid damage.

Wow is not the kind of game where you can expect to kill alone huge bosses if you don’t outdamage or outheal them. Also there is a huge difference between classes and specs, try for example doing any Wanted quest while leveling with a hunter or warlock and then try to do the same with a rogue, you will be almost always smashed with the latter.

[Osmeric]

I think it is alienating a lot of people from the game.

What alienates more is not being able to do content at all. Too easy for someone is mildly offputting; too hard is an immediate large turnoff.

The hardcore idea that the great thundering herd of potential WoW players wants harder content has no basis in reality.

Also: "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler

[crusadernero]

Imagine if Blizzard suddenly tuned the leveling from 1 to max lvl and made everything much harder, the outcry would be insane. Ever since vanilla most of the base game has been easy. Classic(vanilla) was/is probably the closest we get of "hard" solo content out in the world. Even then, it was more about class tuning than anything else.