Classes should be fully unlocked once you are max level

[Niwes]

It's a odd topic to think about... what comes after wow? Do you make another mmo from the ip? You could though it is also was a ripe setting for almost any fantasy adventure game ( I would argue you would have to set it pre bfa though).

I don't think games that purposely waste your time doing trivial content will last long in today's market you can look at steams activity charts. You don't see cookie clickers in there.

yep, true.

[Garymorilix]

It's a odd topic to think about... what comes after wow? Do you make another mmo from the ip? You could though it is also was a ripe setting for almost any fantasy adventure game ( I would argue you would have to set it pre bfa though).

I don't think games that purposely waste your time doing trivial content will last long in today's market you can look at steams activity charts. You don't see cookie clickers in there.

WoW's been dead for 17 years. Still being dead as it seems.
Your steam activity chart topping games die in 2-3 months. Rightfully so.

Both BfA and SL was reported to sell better than any other WoW expac before them.
I am so tired of this WoW is dead argument.

It's not only not dead, literally everything else will die before WoW even goes F2P. Let that sink in.
You can hate it as much as you want, this is the reality of the situation. You know why?
Because you get your info on the game from people on online forums like this that spend their free time posting various "WoW's shit" posts.
People who actually play the game just do that, play the game. They don't care if you think the game is dead.

So keep doomsaying and playing your next New World or whatever the fck dying MMO is up on the list to kill WoW now.
Nobody cares.

[Groundwalker]

WoW is still the MMO king. FF will always be #2.

My statement has absolutely 100% nothing to do with what MMO is better than the other. Thank you for playing though.

[Celement]

WoW is still the MMO king. FF will always be #2.

The king? You are sure running your mouth about runescape for a man in runeblade distance.

- - - Updated - - -

WoW's been dead for 17 years. Still being dead as it seems.
Your steam activity chart topping games die in 2-3 months. Rightfully so.

Both BfA and SL was reported to sell better than any other WoW expac before them.
I am so tired of this WoW is dead argument.

It's not only not dead, literally everything else will die before WoW even goes F2P. Let that sink in.
You can hate it as much as you want, this is the reality of the situation. You know why?
Because you get your info on the game from people on online forums like this that spend their free time posting various "WoW's shit" posts.
People who actually play the game just do that, play the game. They don't care if you think the game is dead.

So keep doomsaying and playing your next New World or whatever the fck dying MMO is up on the list to kill WoW now.
Nobody cares.

There isn't much true in what you posted and it's so far off my point I am going to hazard a guess you replied to the wrong person?

[Cosmic Janitor]

Tier sets are fine, they are temporary endgame rewards that are supposed to mix up the current meta gameplay a bit (at least the good ones).
Alternative progression systems are a bit more difficult. They are certainly overused in WoW recently to the point of being detrimental, but they are not inherently bad. A big issue is that actual character progression has completely haltet and these tacked on systems are all fragmented and contained not only to expansions but patches by now. They undermine any sense of character progression one would expect from an RPG. There are also other issues, like most of these systems being disconnected from the actual class gameplay and boring passive effects sometimes even reigning supreme (matrix, twilight dev, etc., especially when they don't even align with the general disposition of the class).

[Laqweeta]

MOP was perfect systems wise, after that I don't know what the fuck happened

I know! Even giving a 100% bonus to rep at Revered too - ACCOUNT wide.

But then it happened, the game was made worse and worse in favor of time played metrics to appease shareholders.

[exochaft]

Tier sets are fine, they are temporary endgame rewards that are supposed to mix up the current meta gameplay a bit (at least the good ones).
Alternative progression systems are a bit more difficult. They are certainly overused in WoW recently to the point of being detrimental, but they are not inherently bad. A big issue is that actual character progression has completely haltet and these tacked on systems are all fragmented and contained not only to expansions but patches by now. They undermine any sense of character progression one would expect from an RPG. There are also other issues, like most of these systems being disconnected from the actual class gameplay and boring passive effects sometimes even reigning supreme (matrix, twilight dev, etc., especially when they don't even align with the general disposition of the class).

I think the succinct way to describe what you're saying is that the alternative progression systems aren't bad in a vacuum, it's how they are executed and affect all the other systems around them when implemented in the game. And personally, I agree with that.

If there was one overarching reason why these systems end up having horrible side effects and unintended consequences is because these systems are always implemented with short-term vision. When an alternative progression system gets made in WoW, they commonly don't last beyond one patch, and they rarely last beyond an expansion. With such a small window, it's all focused on short term gains and little regard to long-term ramifications. This issue is compounded by Blizz tending to just discard systems immediately that may have potentially, while clinging to systems that are almost unanimously reviled or serve no purpose beyond wasting your time... or just reinventing a wheel that's fundamentally flawed.

Add all this into how Blizz likes to tune and balance the game, it's a recipe for disaster. The current methodology for Blizz tuning/balancing content is that your gear and system are the means to doing a certain difficulty of content, but you need to do that same difficulty of content to get they gear and system progression required. Simply put, it's a catch-22 scenario.

The end result is that progression (whether in gear or systems) takes longer by default, tuning is all over the place, and there's a slew of negative consequences and issue that the players have to deal with and Blizz has to constantly hotfix/adjust (such as rampant scaling issues requiring constant nerfs/buffs between and within tiers, huge difficulty swings between and within difficulties, etc.). It's all quite the irony that Blizz says they want to encourage players to progress through higher difficulties of their content, yet they design the game to make it as arduous as possible for the vast majority of players. By the time Blizz (hopefully) fixes a good deal of the issues of their own making, it's already the end of the expansion, and the cycle repeats.

While there are a tons of aspects I'd love to discuss about the past/present design philosophies, how they've changed, as well as their usually negative impacts on the game... well, that'd be an insanely large post. The general point is that there has been a huge shift in design philosophy over the years at Blizz, and we're currently in the Ion-directed phase of Legion -> BfA -> Shadowlands. I'm not saying Ion is the source of all these philosophy changes, but he is responsible for their continued use as well as any system design/philosophy that originated in Legion (which there are plenty).

[Radaney]

How about no. How dare you have to make choices? This is a MMORPG. How about we not totally destroy the RPG part?

It's illusion of choice. This game has no choices.

WoW is still the MMO king. FF will always be #2.

Copium.

[Schmilblick]

Both BfA and SL was reported to sell better than any other WoW expac before them.
I am so tired of this WoW is dead argument.

.

Selling, then falling a few weeks later, when people start to leave, after realizing how badly designed are those 2 expansions.

[kenn9530]

It's doesn't have to be gear only, but gimping a class just for the sake of fake progression is just a stupid game design.

What are you on about gimping a class, just because you reach max level does not mean your char doesnt need to improve thier skills, gear should only be a small part of progression, there should be other ways like special quests or ways to increase the power of your skills, the current way WoW does things is the most boring and simple way possible, WoWs main progression is gear, once you have close to the best gear you can get the player loses interest and plays far less.

[Nachtigal]

I don’t know how I feel about this. Ermagherd choices mattering in an rpg. I don’t know man. I think blizzard should be happy I made the choice to play the game at all, maybe you should design the game in a way that makes the choice to not play the game less appealing?

[Celement]

What are you on about gimping a class, just because you reach max level does not mean your char doesnt need to improve thier skills, gear should only be a small part of progression, there should be other ways like special quests or ways to increase the power of your skills, the current way WoW does things is the most boring and simple way possible, WoWs main progression is gear, once you have close to the best gear you can get the player loses interest and plays far less.

This idea only fits within games that have a difficulty that reflects it.... wow does not.

In rpgs with this kind of tuning usually treat killing a normal none elite enemy two levels higher then you as a heroic feat worthy of an instant level up and comparable in terms of difficulty to the mage tower.

Blizzard puts these kinds of systems in where it isn't practically note worth to kill 20 enemies at once... it doesn't fit.

[kenn9530]

This idea only fits within games that have a difficulty that reflects it.... wow does not.

In rpgs with this kind of tuning usually treat killing a normal none elite enemy two levels higher then you as a heroic feat worthy of an instant level up and comparable in terms of difficulty to the mage tower.

Blizzard puts these kinds of systems in where it isn't practically note worth to kill 20 enemies at once... it doesn't fit.

It fits in all games like WoW, gear should only be a small part of a characters progression, there should be multiple ways to improve a characters strength, quests that enhance an ability/spells power, WoWs content is cleared within a month and you can be finished with character power also, things like mage towers and such could be used to empower an ability also, there are many options for games like WoW to enhance gameplay but players get stuck with the most boring systems.

[Celement]

It fits in all games like WoW, gear should only be a small part of a characters progression, there should be multiple ways to improve a characters strength, quests that enhance an ability/spells power, WoWs content is cleared within a month and you can be finished with character power also, things like mage towers and such could be used to empower an ability also, there are many options for games like WoW to enhance gameplay but players get stuck with the most boring systems.

Can you clear it in a month?

Gear fits wow fine as its reflected via the difficulty and when not over inflated offers a solid difficulty curve.

The other is a rather clear artificial time gate not tied to a logical difficulty level.

[wushootaki]

[QUOTE=RobertMugabe;53691276]SL didn't have AP or anything similar, so why are you assuming we will have it "again"? Did you even play SL?

Surely you aren't talking about anima, which is a currency for buying cosmetics, right?

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Wasn't renown essentially the same construct? Grind out this resource that gates you from mechanic. Yes actually AP went to cosmetics, but still time gated by an AP like mechanic (on top of having rep grinds as well).

[Schmilblick]

As long as the grind does not interfere with how the classes work, it's acceptable, just low how bad effect tier sets not dropping is doing for people, pure frustration.

[Nork]

and no abilities / skills / talents should be gated behind tier sets, artifacts, azerite, covenants or any other crappy system we will be getting next expansion.
End game should only focus on getting more powerful by getting gear or farming another form of AP.
For me, it would be the perfect design.

People like this guy are the ones who are killing the game. They don't care about lore or RPG, they are just average gamers who jumped into this game as they could have done it with FIFA or COD. They have no love for Warcraft and its universe, and I hope Blizzard stops listening to these guys.

[ClassicPeon]

I agree that classes should be complete in design and the especially specs shouldnt need some kind of covenant ability to feel like they have an actual complete rotation.

I dont see the problem with spicing specs up a bit during an expansion though. Tier sets/artifact weapons and stuff like that are cool enough things. They dont have to add actual abilities to your bar but perhaps changing an ability that wasnt used much to be a decently strong cd for a season is pretty cool.


THe problem wow is facing at the moment is that by far most specs have been the exact same at LEAST since Legion launched. I'm not talking about tuning wise but gameplay wise. And in a game where gameplay is as important as wow it does need to fresh up quite often or grow stale. Right now literally all classes feel stale.

[Ringthane]

My statement has absolutely 100% nothing to do with what MMO is better than the other. Thank you for playing though.

You literally said:

"Um, what you are replying to is exactly what Final Fantasy does, and Final Fantasy is 1000x more of an RPG than WOW has been in over a decade. "

Those words are copied and pasted from your post. And no, you didn't say MMO. You said RPG. But both games are MMORPGs. You can't have one without the other, just like you can't have water without getting wet.

[Lolites]

Wasn't renown essentially the same construct? Grind out this resource that gates you from mechanic.

well since you couldnt grind renown AT ALL (unless you count catchup) then... no?