Why is mindlessly easy the default for wow?

[Kehego]

I literally quoted that last page.



Offering advice on how to handle challenging content doesn't change that it is challenging content, and in this case explicitly intentionally challenging.

Explicitly intentionally challenging is a stretch, in the context of

Example three: the Lich King Heroic dungeons (and Naxxramas) were too easy to zerg, setting up an expansion-long expectation that purple gear would come easy and often. In retrospect, that was a mistake. We don't at all view the Cataclysm dungeon and raid balance as a mistake.

Not making things shit easy and making things hard aren't the same thing. And as I said earlier, hogger was "challenging" in the shadow of wotlk heroics. Leveling to 85 was more challenging than a wotlk heroic. Going to the fridge to get snacks was more challenging than a wotlk heroic. Are any of those things difficult?

[NineSpine]

Explicitly intentionally challenging is a stretch, in the context of

Not making things shit easy and making things hard aren't the same thing. And as I said earlier, hogger was "challenging" in the shadow of wotlk heroics. Leveling to 85 was more challenging than a wotlk heroic. Going to the fridge to get snacks was more challenging than a wotlk heroic. Are any of those things difficult?

Third time:

"In Cataclysm, the Heroic dungeons and raids are intended to be challenging -- and they are, at least until you overgear them."

[NineSpine]

What narrative do I even have here? You people and your gotcha buzzwords I swear ..

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Dungeons in cata were purposely made to be harder than wotlk counterparts. Players complained about difficulty. GC released a blog that basically said 'get gud'. Players didn't get gud. Dungeons got nerfed after blizz admitted defeat


What about what I just said do you disagree with exactly? Because you are all over the place here

Kehego argued that Ghostcrawler never said the dungeons were challenging. That is what I am arguing against.

[Relapses]

It isn't that I didn't read it... you just missed the poi t so throughly I didn't see a point to responding. Legion had artifact power no one cared about balance of power... they cared about the fact they were effectively locked into one spec and at the mercy of wows balancing team ( rip sub rogues).

Bfa was about how much of a pain in the ass azerite traits and powers were and how you had to do obscure tasks to upgrade essences. Shadowlands was the utter bs that was conduits, renowned, and torghast.

Yes if you leave out the actual grinds and road blocks of the expansions it doesn't seem that bad but you so throughly miss the point by then the conversation becomes pointless.

Now as for the tbc and wrath examples. Tbc rep was earned by doing a multitude of content including running the dungeon in question. It wasn't great but you could at least be doing relevant content while you worked on it.

In wrath while I admit my memory fails me a bit wasn't it only about 2k to buy exalted from hodir and wasn't that all you needed? I admit in hazy on the fine details of wrath as the expansion was so trivial till ulduar I just did the raids in the first week.

You asked for examples of the game being less grindy in SL, I provided you with multiple examples. I have no idea how you can pivot that to "missing to point," when that was precisely what you asked for me to provide you. Would you prefer if WoW simply had a lobby like League where you select a role, press a button and slam a dungeon?

[Kehego]

Kehego argued that Ghostcrawler never said the dungeons were challenging. That is what I am arguing against.

where did I say that?
anyway I'd suggest you read more than the headline of an article

[NineSpine]

where did I say that?
anyway I'd suggest you read more than the headline of an article

Are you going to make me quote the middle of the article a third time?

[rrayy]

So why then do people harp on Cata heroics being hard is a major reason subs declined? If heroics being hard wasn’t a reason subs increased then why is it a reason subs decreased?

More than likely it was driven by the Lich King story being over if I was to guess.

People always point to one specific thing to push their narrative, specifically to something they really hate. Basically they are trying to project their opinion on everyone else to convince themselves they are right and that makes their opinion fact.

The real answer is that 1,000's of players leave for 1,000's of reasons. There is no one thing that causes everyone to leave. Some people leaeve for reason x. Others leave for y. Others leave for reasons w & z. Or maybe all four. People need to stop claiming that everyone left for reason x. That is NEVER the case.

[NineSpine]

I took his posts as rather stating the intent behind the changes and post rather than the actual verbatim of the message, which is where the confusion is taking place I think.

If I'm misinterpreting @Kehego 's stance than please ignore my dumbass

He asked us to tell him where the article says that the content is challenging, and he is continuing to challenge the assertion.

[rrayy]

No it really wasnt. Mobs actualy opposed threat. Then this uber entilted casuals came in complainig about it and Blizzard caved in in order to get their sub money. And in process of cuttering game for these so called casuals alianated rest of their core audience.

Yes mobs were not mechanicly challenging becouse you know 2004. But thats not excuse having world mobs with mechanics what hit like wet nuddle. Doing no dmg and dieing in 2 seconds. Its also reason btw why are zones over saturated by mobs. To compensate for fact game become easyer and faster.

Yes it was. do not confuse tedious for hard. It was NEVER hard. Blizzard never caved to anyone. Saying "they caved to get their sub money' one uses when they really have no reasons or argument. It's a catch all used to avoid having to back up one's claims with actual facts and logic because one has none.

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The weird thing about WotLK heroics is that it wasn't so much that they were all mechanically simple, it's that the gear outpaced them so quickly.

People were easily dying to Loken and Anub'arak and dying to trash packs in Ahn'kahet. But it took so little time to out gear them completely that people forgot all about that.

Exactly. Wrath Heroics were hard to begin with, but became trivial because they were so easily out-geared. Also, remember that people didn't start complaining about Heroics being easy until the end of the expansion which not so coincidentally everyone had out-geared it. Nobody said they were too easy when they first went in during expansion release.

[Kehego]

I must have missed that part and I apologize for my hand on the confusion if that's the case

https://web.archive.org/web/20110113...n/blog/2053469

Ghostcrawler at no point is like "dungeons are hard, my bad"
The entire article he says "dungeons, while they are more challenging than wotlk, get good and you too, can complete them"

here's the blog, you decide what the spirit of the discussion was.

[Kehego]

Yes it was. do not confuse tedious for hard. It was NEVER hard. Blizzard never caved to anyone. Saying "they caved to get their sub money' one uses when they really have no reasons or argument. It's a catch all used to avoid having to back up one's claims with actual facts and logic because one has none.

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Exactly. Wrath Heroics were hard to begin with, but became trivial because they were so easily out-geared. Also, remember that people didn't start complaining about Heroics being easy until the end of the expansion which not so coincidentally everyone had out-geared it. Nobody said they were too easy when they first went in during expansion release.

I did glory of the hero in questing blues. I can specifically remember doing my dungeons in https://www.wowhead.com/item=40673/t...-helm#comments because it had a metric assload of defense rating. If you don't gear properly of course you'll get reamed.

[Argorwal]

Yes it was. do not confuse tedious for hard. It was NEVER hard. Blizzard never caved to anyone. Saying "they caved to get their sub money' one uses when they really have no reasons or argument. It's a catch all used to avoid having to back up one's claims with actual facts and logic because one has none.

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Exactly. Wrath Heroics were hard to begin with, but became trivial because they were so easily out-geared. Also, remember that people didn't start complaining about Heroics being easy until the end of the expansion which not so coincidentally everyone had out-geared it. Nobody said they were too easy when they first went in during expansion release.

Wrath heroics were insanely easy from day 1 not just end of expansion. And it wasn’t just heroics that were super easy day 1 it was the launch raid (Naxx) as well.

CC wasn’t used ever, just aoe round everything up.

The only boss people died on was Loken for not moving out of his aoe.

Then halls of reflection if people didn’t LoS the trash.

[NineSpine]

https://web.archive.org/web/20110113...n/blog/2053469

Ghostcrawler at no point is like "dungeons are hard, my bad"
The entire article he says "dungeons, while they are more challenging than wotlk, get good and you too, can complete them"

here's the blog, you decide what the spirit of the discussion was.

Nobody ever argued that he apologized in that article, but you acted like he never said they were hard when he did.

[Kehego]

Nobody ever argued that he apologized in that article, but you acted like he never said they were hard when he did.

he literally, at no point, calls them hard.

he calls the playerbase shit, and tells them that they were spoiled by easy content, and that they now have to learn to play the game.

HE NEVER SAID THEY WERE HARD.

[NineSpine]

he literally, at no point, calls them hard.

he calls the playerbase shit, and tells them that they were spoiled by easy content, and that they now have to learn to play the game.

HE NEVER SAID THEY WERE HARD.

Fourth time:

"In Cataclysm, the Heroic dungeons and raids are intended to be challenging -- and they are, at least until you overgear them."

[Gamingsince1981]

Just ignore the guy, they are obviously just trying to stir you up, they can not seriously be that dense.

Anyone pretending that heroics in wrath were easy day one is straight up lying, or they some how forgot how many fails there were in the icc dungeons like pit of saron and halls of reflection the day they released and for months after, they got face roll when everyone over geared them and even still some people failed at them. What about occulus or what ever that dungeon was called, it was pretty much 50/50 if you were going to manage that dungeon or not, because the average player found it too hard, then everyone just tried skipping it to avoid the lose.

I think the main error was GC thought that the average user was a lot better at the game than they were.

[bullseyed]

It's the exact opposite for me in WoW. The endgame (raids, mythic+, rated pvp) and other activities with attractive rewards (new mage tower) have gotten more and more difficult, so much so that I am pushed out of doing them.

I play WoW less because there is less to do, that I am capable of doing, that I want to do, that feels worth doing, but doesn't feel obligatory.

Maybe wow is "mindlessly easy" for others, but it isn't easy for me at the endgame. I'm never going to get the spellbook mount. I'm just not good enough to beat one of the challenges now, let alone all of them. I managed to barely squeek through getting my mage tower skins in Legion, and that was with Legiondaries, special consumables, and after outgearing them as much as Legion allowed for. Of course none of those things are options with the new mage tower.

Making the game more difficult will drive me away for good. If anything, WoW needs to scale back the difficulty in more places if I'm to stay subbed regularly.

"Bliz needs to delete gladiator rank, because I can't get past 1500. Or I'll quit!"

... what?


You even list mythic+ as too hard... which literally has exponential scaling of difficulty for anyone to find their limit and play there. If +2 is already too hard, welp...

[Talon8669]

I think it is alienating a lot of people from the game. I see a lot of people in newcomer chat being perplexed why there are not any dangerous enemies in the game. After awkwardly explaining that they likely wont see any for the first twelve hours of play( assuming boosted a lot more without it) they seem to loose all enthusiasm to play.

With most of the most popular games for pc being harder games like counter-strike, mobas, elden ring and other challenging games shouldn't wow try to challenge players before heroic raids or mythic raiding?

( grabbed the games from steams most played not a perfect nor complete sample but a sizable one.)

WoW is a participation trophy, nothing more.

[Kehego]

Just ignore the guy, they are obviously just trying to stir you up, they can not seriously be that dense.

Anyone pretending that heroics in wrath were easy day one is straight up lying, or they some how forgot how many fails there were in the icc dungeons like pit of saron and halls of reflection the day they released and for months after, they got face roll when everyone over geared them and even still some people failed at them. What about occulus or what ever that dungeon was called, it was pretty much 50/50 if you were going to manage that dungeon or not, because the average player found it too hard, then everyone just tried skipping it to avoid the lose.

I think the main error was GC thought that the average user was a lot better at the game than they were.

pit of saron wasn't a launch dungeon buckaroo

[Low Hanging Fruit]

WoW is a participation trophy, nothing more.

I do feel the game is designed that way in a lot of ways.