10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[Segus1992]

you and op confusing casual with bad im doing casual 1-2 keys a day but they are +22-24s

This is not casual btw. Playing every day is not casual.

[FGO]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

Absolutely this

[erifwodahs]

They should just remove key depletion, besides the NPC at the end of the dungeon which would ask if you want to drop it down. Casuals then could calmly do their +10s until they are comfy and then move up when they think they have done good enough. Timer should be there for key upgrading only

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This is not casual btw. Playing every day is not casual.

I mean that is what 1.5h/day day if you do two keys? sub 10hrs a week is pretty casual if that's the only game you play.

[Twdft]

Another thread where OP never gets back and actually engages with opinions...

They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

You can say the same about mythic raids. And guess what, there are three other easier difficulties to choose from.

Dungeons also have 3 difficulties without a timer for casual players, just play those.

[rhorle]

There are plenty of metrics that could be applied beyond just "Finished this dungeon this quickly."

Wouldn't it just end up as "Lets do fastest/easiest stuff and skip the rest"? Kind of like with Torghast and how you don't even try for certain point activities because it isn't worth the effort.

[erifwodahs]

Casual players do not play enough to stay "competetive" to find groups on blizzards selection group finder. So, no, mythic+ progression is not for casual gamers. As the participation rates also show.

Or do you play in a guild group on schedules, and still try to pretend you are "casual"?

What participation are you talking about? Check S2 numbers, participation was great even if S2 was a dogpile of a season, especially before 9.1.5
You can easy keep above the rating by just having a key or two and just doing your own keys. Or is having friends to play with is not casual either? Such a weird shit to gatekeep "you have a guild so you are not casual" lol what

[dirtboy]

The timer is fine. What sucks with m+ is the affixes that simply makes the game worse. They also negatively impact dungeon design. Get rid of affixes, keep the timer and mob count and you have a much better system. Maybe keep seasonal affixes, if they manage to make them fun and interesting.

[Luck4]

The only way a non-timed Mythic + could work would be by giving a death limit until the key depletes and a debuff for not staying in combat.

But I'm sure if we had a version like that alongside the timed version, the majority of the players would stick with the timed ones.

The timer is only frustrating when someone disconnects, but even that could be solved if Blizzard really wanted.

[Lolites]

you and op confusing casual with bad im doing casual 1-2 keys a day but they are +22-24s

when rewards cap at +15 anything above that is NOT casual by any chance... even if you do 1key a week, if its +20 i wouldnt consider that casual...

[erifwodahs]

It is in massive decline.



source: raider.io

And you want to tell me 400k runs per week are a lot? While every run is one single char run in that graph? Means, you have to /5 it to get group runs? Means, you have to divide it by the number of existing dungeons?

Lets say it is around 40k-50k unique players playing mythic+ per week. That is nothing compared to the one million daily players WoW has.



Soure: https://mmo-population.com/r/wow

How convenient to compare last weeks where people essentially didn't do it anymore because of gear reset incoming, but hey that doesn't support your narrative. Imagine comparing it to a 7-6weeks before patch which is fairly consistent to majority of the patch? You clearly aren't into statistics.

[erifwodahs]

when rewards cap at +15 anything above that is NOT casual by any chance... even if you do 1key a week, if its +20 i wouldnt consider that casual...

So what's your definition of casual?
I won't pretend that I play like a casual, but a friend I do keys with only plays like 6-7hrs a week due to work and studies, pushing 23-24s now. That very casual amount of time to play, even if content isn't as casual, so where is the line here? You can compare it to 3 or 4hrs a day people who are stuck in +16s or 17s

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And you did not bring up any numbers that counter mine. Beside some rant i brought numbers your "argumentation" lacks. Come back if you have arguments.

You must be joking lol. You literally had your chart up in the quote , which I am using as reference and literally said 7-6 weeks before which is pretty much double to your conveniently selected week without any nuance, you have your numbers. Dude, get a coffee or something

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The only way a non-timed Mythic + could work would be by giving a death limit until the key depletes and a debuff for not staying in combat.

But I'm sure if we had a version like that alongside the timed version, the majority of the players would stick with the timed ones.

The timer is only frustrating when someone disconnects, but even that could be solved if Blizzard really wanted.

I would say keep the timer for upgrades and just remove depletion, so people who don't like the timer can just easy do their key as much as they want and if they want to go higher, they need to do it in time to get a +1. Literally no-one get's hurt, you don't lose progress anymore if it goes to shit but still need to perform if you want to go further

[erifwodahs]

Yeah. The thing is i argument with numbers. You argument with assumptions. Back them up. Until then i end that "debate" with you.

Wait, so if I use your chart, it's not valid, but when you do, it is? What a clown. you selected lowest participation week, I might as well select the highest then and claim that 200k people play m+ or some shit so we would both look like idiots. Thing is, I am not

[RobertMugabe]

Just FYI, whoever told you that is ignorant.

Yeah I know that Ion is ignorant sometimes

[kamuimac]

MDI is WoWs most successfull event (dont count WF race here cuz its not owned by blizz) so no it wont happen

no idea how yu can call MDI as succesful when their streams are being watched by like 10-20k players.

Asmonbald has more audience then that when he was in his prime streaming wow.

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It is in massive decline.



source: raider.io

And you want to tell me 400k runs per week are a lot? While every run is one single char run in that graph? Means, you have to /5 it to get group runs? Means, you have to divide it by the number of existing dungeons?

Lets say it is around 40k-50k unique players playing mythic+ per week. That is nothing compared to the one million daily players WoW has.



Soure: https://mmo-population.com/r/wow

those numbers are indeed hugely inflated. i alone inflate them by runing m+ on 10 chars soon 12. but i run literaly 1 dungeon a week.

[erifwodahs]

You did not even understand that chart

I do. You just intentionally misinterpret the data and obviously have 0 experience in data analysis or statistics. You blamed me on using assumptions. Look at your comment lol.
OP: Until you bring numbers
Me: *uses OPs numbers*
OP: That doesn't count
Blocked.

[ellieg]

Casual players do not play enough to stay "competetive" to find groups on blizzards selection group finder. So, no, mythic+ progression is not for casual gamers. As the participation rates also show.

Or do you play in a guild group on schedules, and still try to pretend you are "casual"?

I don't play with a guild. I have 0 friends in game. My play sessions are ~2 hours long, 2-3x a week. Im still doing +16s atm. Slowly worked my way up by listing my key and pugging the dungeons.

How is that not a casual? How come others can't do that too?

[erifwodahs]

It is not casual if you regularily play 2 hours 2-3 times a week. Casual would be if you played today. And in two weeks 3 hours. And on weekend an hour. Without committing to schedules or a guild.

If you see yourself as a casual gamer doing competetive high end content every week almost every 2nd day, you really do neither understand the term "casual".

How do you build your mythic+ group?

It's you who don't understand anything. Have some 0 sense definitions which only fit your specific idea and are literally unwilling to put any effort in actually doing something.

[ellieg]

It is not casual if you regularily play 2 hours 2-3 times a week. Casual would be if you played today. And in two weeks 3 hours. And on weekend an hour. Without committing to schedules or a guild.

If you see yourself as a casual gamer doing competetive high end content every week almost every 2nd day, you really do neither understand the term "casual".

How do you build your mythic+ group?

I have a 6 month old son. My game time can be interrupted at any moment. A couple times a week, after he gets put to bed, I get on from abt 9-10/11 pm before going to bed to get up for work at 5 am. Can't do that every night or id get no sleep.

I log on, I post my key, I spend 5-10 mins seeing who applies and inviting 4 other ppl that seem to have appropriate rating and ilvl. If that dsnt work, I spend 5 mins applying to groups. If that dsnt work I play an alt or go to bed. Assuming it does work, we run the instance. If it was timed, I might try to run a 2nd one with a dif group if im not too tired.

[ellieg]

Well, yet you play almost every 2nd day, which makes you a semi-hardcore player, also considering you play high levels of mythic+.



Well, not playing in a premade group does not make you a casual gamer. A casual gamer simply does not play regularily.

2, rarely 3x is not almost every second day.

[Fenrys]

...and add Challenge Modes back to the game with cosmetic rewards for people who enjoy that speedrunning gameplay.

We can have both M+ and CMs in the game at the same time! M+ can be a more relaxed experience where tanks don't need to plan routes and people don't have to chainpull like its WOTLK. You can still do that if you want but I think many people would prefer if that wasn't the default setting.

For people who want that additional challenge you can have an entirely separate opt-in game mode with cool cosmetic rewards. You can even rotate which dungeons are available every season to spice things up, and add seasonal rewards.

Timed dungeons were never the core of the WOW experience, and it shouldn't be the primary way that people engage with group content. They are incredibly complex and inaccessible to casual players, and drive people to quit the game because there is no alternative.

People are weird about time. I get there are some people who hate the feeling of pressure and it makes it hard to get into content like M+. That's fair enough. You have to understand though, the timer is what makes the content interesting. Replacing it with a death counter, or something similar would make each pack utterly dreadful and monotonous. The packs are not interesting enough by themselves to make it fun, nor would tuning things up make it more interesting. In fact the solutions to such an increase in tuning would be even worse (using CC and solo pulling, whilst waiting for CDs - that's probably the worst WoW experience you could possibly design - CC is only interesting when it comes at a cost - Time).

Its like taking a racing game like Crash Team racing or Mario Kart, "I find the race stressful - what if we made the success condition just getting round the track at your own pace without falling off the track?" - sure you could do that, but you'd be taking away the thing that makes the game interesting. This isn't even a question of whether you'd like the game designed for you or not - even you'd hate what M+ would become if you did that.
There are plenty of games which are a bit hard to get into; any paradox interactive game, most simulation games and even at a base level, most MMOs. Its even OK to make them more accessible where possible, but what you cannot do is take away the thing that makes it good for the price of accessibility. If the timer is always going to be a deal breaker - that's fine - its just not for you. No need to advocate it being made into something awful because you don't like it,