Apparently, the buff from the Elements is equal to the buff from the Titans

[shadowmatrix]

Not being invincible and being equal to random dragons that were simply enhanced by the Elements are not the same thing. I can understand if the Elemental Lords would be equal to the Aspects, but it's just 4 random dragons that asked the Elements to strengthen them and the Elements somehow made them equal to the Aspects (or even stronger, given that 4 such dragons were equal to 5 Aspects)

Seems fine once you get away from "Titan means super mega powerful" considering the aspects themselves were random proto-drakes that Tyr saw potential in. Depends on how they handle the story.

[darkoms]

I said the Titans themselves meaning as in person. Yes the power had to come from the Titans, but it needed to be channeled through the Keepers, thus it's not going to be as powerful as if the Titans were there in person. Also, the Titans dont need to give all of their power to strengthen something.

The Keepers were infused by a large amount of the Titans powers after they died, Lei-shen then stole said titan power, and Ra's power, and look how strong Lei-shen was. He sure wasn't Titan powerful, but he was very strong.

And yes, I've read all of the books and Wowpedia. I've been a part of Azeroth since the first game.

I don't understand where people get it from. What does it matter if they were there in person or not? Literally nothing indicates that there were any problems with the transfer of power through the Keepers. People keep claiming this without giving any evidence.


Lei Shen on his prime fought Xuen for 30 days. Doesn't look like Aspect level to me.

[Aucald]

Surprisingly, if you read carefully, you would know that I never argued with this. Of course they only have a fraction of the power of the Titans, what does this have to do with it? Even this bit of power was enough to make them extremely powerful.

Your implication here, and restated above (e.g. Danuser is an idiot that doesn't know the lore) is a false dilemma, based on the fact that we next to know next to nothing about these Primal Incarnates. The Dragon Aspects have a scintilla of the power of the Titans, which yes, makes them incredibly powerful - but they're not invulnerable or all-powerful, and we've thus far killed two of their number directly, one of which was further empowered by the Old Gods in addition to retaining his power as an Aspect. We also killed Malygos, the Aspect of Magic, with a little help from Alexstrasza's dragonflight.

Whether this is actually an issue depends on how powerful the Incarnates actually are, which based on the current lore, seem to be "very." The Aspects may have like 5% of a Titan's power, but if the Incarnates have like 90% of the power of an Elemental Lord, or perhaps are even stronger than the Elemental Lords, then they could very well be a threat to the Aspects even in the fullness of their original powers. It took the Keepers as well as armies of Watchers, Giants, and Titanforged constructs to finally contend with and imprison the Elemental Lords, after all - and it took 5 Aspects and presumably the aid of their respective dragonflights to contend with the original Primal Incarnates.

To put it succinctly, that's not a retcon, not a plot hole, and not even an inconsistency. They're just new baddies we didn't previously know about that happen to be close to the Aspects in power.

[darkoms]

Yes, the Titans empowered the Aspects through the Keepers. The Titans also directly empowered the Keepers previously so it's the same proximity to the Titans. If we're being charitable and say that 5 Aspects are comparable to the 9 Keepers in total and that in turn, the 9 Keepers still needed armies to take on the Elemental Lords There's no meaningful power differential that'd put the two out of the way.

And yes, Archimonde got blasted because of the enchantments in the tree. Said tree was linked to a massive pool of magic which made that possible in the first place so you can take your pick as to which is more relevant. Or take into account that we later performed the same feat with the help of Grom and Yrel of all people.

Keepers have never shown the same level of power as the Aspects. In Chronicles, Deathwing is named as the strongest servant of the Old Gods (and this was how he turned into a complete monster in Cataclysm), which already puts him above Ragnaros, and therefore any Keeper on an individual level (considering that it took 2 Keepers to defeat Ragnaros).

You do know that the Elemental Lords had their armies too, right? And judging by the Chronicles, the Keepers defeated them in battle without the participation of armies.


The Chronicle literally says that Malfurion used the power of the Aspects in Nordrassil to kill Archimonde. You would know this if you actually read the Chronicles. In Draenor, we did it with the help of Khadgar, Grom, Yrel, we had powerful rings with the power of Draenor (or Naaru) itself, and judging by the final video, there was also a crowd of orcs and draenei. And that was after a long and hard battle, unlike in Nordrassil where Archimonde just exploded.

- - - Updated - - -

Your implication here, and restated above (e.g. Danuser is an idiot that doesn't know the lore) is a false dilemma, based on the fact that we next to know next to nothing about these Primal Incarnates. The Dragon Aspects have a scintilla of the power of the Titans, which yes, makes them incredibly powerful - but they're not invulnerable or all-powerful, and we've thus far killed two of their number directly, one of which was further empowered by the Old Gods in addition to retaining his power as an Aspect. We also killed Malygos, the Aspect of Magic, with a little help from Alexstrasza's dragonflight.

Whether this is actually an issue depends on how powerful the Incarnates actually are, which based on the current lore, seem to be "very." The Aspects may have like 5% of a Titan's power, but if the Incarnates have like 90% of the power of an Elemental Lord, or perhaps are even stronger than the Elemental Lords, then they could very well be a threat to the Aspects even in the fullness of their original powers. It took the Keepers as well as armies of Watchers, Giants, and Titanforged constructs to finally contend with and imprison the Elemental Lords, after all - and it took 5 Aspects and presumably the aid of their respective dragonflights to contend with the original Primal Incarnates.

To put it succinctly, that's not a retcon, not a plot hole, and not even an inconsistency. They're just new baddies we didn't previously know about that happen to be close to the Aspects in power.

You do know how much strength it took to kill Deathwing, right? 4 other Aspects and so on. It always seemed to me that it was Alexstrasza who finished off Malygos, judging by what she said to Deathwing, it was simply due to the limitations of the game that she was not in combat. They were also powerful adult dragons (and in the cut quote, Alexstrasza mentions that she personally blessed them).


The problem is, it's even dumber. 4 random dragons get the power of the elements and become stronger than the Elemental Lords themselves? What's the point?


According to the Chronicles, the Keepers fought against the Elemental Lords without their armies. The same goes for aspects and incarnations.

[Pandragon]

Lei Shen on his prime fought Xuen for 30 days. Doesn't look like Aspect level to me.

Thats exactly my point. Just cause it's "Titan power" doesnt mean they go "zomg god powers!!!". Your title is literally "Apparently, the buff from the Elements is equal to the buff from the Titans". Lei-Shen had Aman'Thuls soul power, plus Ra's power and it took him a while to bring down a Wild God. The Aspects werent given enough power to dominate the world, just to help protect it.

[darkoms]

Seems fine once you get away from "Titan means super mega powerful" considering the aspects themselves were random proto-drakes that Tyr saw potential in. Depends on how they handle the story.

Yes, the only difference is that the buff of creatures like Titans should be more significant than the buff from the elements, only thousands of elementals at the same time did not give all their strength to these incarnations and did not make them even more powerful than the Elemental Lords, which would be stupid

[Super Dickmann]

Keepers have never shown the same level of power as the Aspects. In Chronicles, Deathwing is named as the strongest servant of the Old Gods (and this was how he turned into a complete monster in Cataclysm), which already puts him above Ragnaros, and therefore any Keeper on an individual level (considering that it took 2 Keepers to defeat Ragnaros).

You do know that the Elemental Lords had their armies too, right? And judging by the Chronicles, the Keepers defeated them in battle without the participation of armies.

The Chronicle literally says that Malfurion used the power of the Aspects in Nordrassil to kill Archimonde. You would know this if you actually read the Chronicles. In Draenor, we did it with the help of Khadgar, Grom, Yrel, we had powerful rings with the power of Draenor (or Naaru) itself, and judging by the final video, there was also a crowd of orcs and draenei. And that was after a long and hard battle, unlike in Nordrassil where Archimonde just exploded.

This doesn't really advanced your argument. It puts us in the wheelhouse of arguing that 2 Keepers equal 1 Aspect and opposite 1 elemental lord. We've seen Ragnaros' emergence terraform two zones, their power is fairly clear. Deathwing is stronger, but this isn't just because he's an Aspect, since he's stronger than all the Aspects as well, but because of the Demon Soul and the empowerment of the Old Gods.

No, it doesn't, check page 80 of the book, the word Aspect is used 0 times. The wisps ignited the enchantments on the tree, which may have been placed by the Aspects but were themselves, at least for Alex's planting of the tree in the first place, made possible by the power of the well, not anything she could do on her own casually, see page 52 of the manual.

[darkoms]

Thats exactly my point. Just cause it's "Titan power" doesnt mean they go "zomg god powers!!!". Your title is literally "Apparently, the buff from the Elements is equal to the buff from the Titans". Lei-Shen had Aman'Thuls soul power, plus Ra's power and it took him a while to bring down a Wild God. The Aspects werent given enough power to dominate the world, just to help protect it.

Lei Shen absorbed Ra's power AFTER Ra lost most of his power. Chronicles literally says that the Keepers have become significantly weaker after the ordering of Azeroth. And I think that the Aspects got clearly more powers from the Titans than the Keepers.

[Wonderment2]

I mean if the Aspects were so much stronger then the Elementals why couldn't they deal with say Ragnaros during the burning of Mount Hyjal?

I don't think aspects are so above extremely powerful Elementals to make the idea of a struggle between them hard to swallow.

Also this also all depends on how much titan juice the aspects have Vs how much elemental juice the primal incarnates have (cool name imo). Titan juice is likely more powerful then elemental juice but depends on the qualities.

[darkoms]

This doesn't really advanced your argument. It puts us in the wheelhouse of arguing that 2 Keepers equal 1 Aspect and opposite 1 elemental lord. We've seen Ragnaros' emergence terraform two zones, their power is fairly clear. Deathwing is stronger, but this isn't just because he's an Aspect, since he's stronger than all the Aspects as well, but because of the Demon Soul and the empowerment of the Old Gods.

No, it doesn't, check page 80 of the book, the word Aspect is used 0 times. The wisps ignited the enchantments on the tree, which may have been placed by the Aspects but were themselves, at least for Alex's planting of the tree in the first place, made possible by the power of the well, not anything she could do on her own casually, see page 52 of the manual.

As stated in the Chronicle, even during Cataclysm (after being buffed by Old God and other buffs), Deathwing BARELY defeated Alexstrasza, so the power difference wasn't really that significant, especially before he got all those buffs. But then again, it's like someone besides me was reading the Chronicles here, right?


Is this some kind of joke? It literally says that Malfurion offered to use the power of the Aspects. The flames blew up the tree and this released the power of the Aspects and killed Archimonde. That's why the elves lost all their gifts, because the power of the Aspects was used up. The power of the Well of Eternity has nothing to do with this.

[Darknessvamp]

Also if Danuser doesn't have a problem with fours, "these four unknown covenants run this place I call the Shadowlands.... These four unknown dragons opposed the aspects as what I call the Primal Incarnates." I suppose they also double as shamans and didn't once in these 10,000+ years get depowered by the elemental forces despite that being something we also know can happen.

[darkoms]

I mean if the Aspects were so much stronger then the Elementals why couldn't they deal with say Ragnaros during the burning of Mount Hyjal?

I don't think aspects are so above extremely powerful Elementals to make the idea of a struggle between them hard to swallow.

Also this also all depends on how much titan juice the aspects have Vs how much elemental juice the primal incarnates have (cool name imo). Titan juice is likely more powerful then elemental juice but depends on the qualities.

If the Aspects are so powerful, why didn't they kill the Lich King?

Neltharion was called the most powerful servant of the Old Gods (i.e. stronger than Ragnaros) and yet he barely managed to defeat Alexstrasza.

[Super Dickmann]

As stated in the Chronicle, even during Cataclysm (after being buffed by Old God and other buffs), Deathwing BARELY defeated Alexstrasza, so the power difference wasn't really that significant, especially before he got all those buffs. But then again, it's like someone besides me was reading the Chronicles here, right?

Is this some kind of joke? It literally says that Malfurion offered to use the power of the Aspects. The flames blew up the tree and this released the power of the Aspects and killed Archimonde. That's why the elves lost all their gifts, because the power of the Aspects was used up. The power of the Well of Eternity has nothing to do with this.

Alexstrasza loses the fight and Deathwing recovers fully after it. In the end raid, all four Aspects have to help to take him out and that's after Thrall has blasted him with the Demon Soul and he's missing most of his body. To whit, Ysera sits on her fat ass while we do all the work and Ragnaros has burned most of Hyjal.

The Aspects blessed the tree in the first place to contain the power of the Well. The original Well being destroyed is what let Malf kick the Legion out in the first place and the magic on the tree was as powerful as it was not because the Aspects randomly blessing shit made it so but because they were helping the Night Elves have their cake and eat it too and they had the new well to work with. The tree grows as fast as it does because of the well's power and it stands to reason the same applies to the other enchantments.

[darkoms]

Yes, the Titans empowered the Aspects through the Keepers. The Titans also directly empowered the Keepers previously so it's the same proximity to the Titans. If we're being charitable and say that 5 Aspects are comparable to the 9 Keepers in total and that in turn, the 9 Keepers still needed armies to take on the Elemental Lords. There's no meaningful power differential that'd put the two out of each other's reach.

Chronicle mentions Rhonin and pals all of zero times, nor any world-shaking storms Malf casually generates, but it also doesn't write them out, so my dreams of going back to the WC3 manual version that didn't have Illidan taught magic by a timetraveling self-insert or Tyrande being a mental patient who needs literal divine intervention to save her from the consequences of not telling Vashj is bad will sadly have to wait another day.

As for Archimonde, yes he got blasted because of the enchantments in the tree. Said tree was linked to a massive pool of magic which made that possible in the first place so you can take your pick as to which is more relevant. We know for certain that per the manual, the tree wouldn't have grown from an acorn to what it is immediately without the waters of the Well. Alternatively, we can take into account that we later performed the same feat with the help of Grom and Yrel of all people.

What does it have to do with being close to the Titans? No, Keepers need armies to fight the Elemental Lords and their armies. You conveniently forget that the elementals had their armies too. But the Keepers fought against the Elemental Lords without the participation of their armies. Or the armies were on both sides. You are just misrepresenting lore with your statements.


The Chronicle describes the original timeline, before Krasus intervened. Nor do they have to mention every storm in Knaak's book. You are trying to portray the Chronicle as an unreliable source in a rather stupid way. If later information does not contradict earlier information, this does not mean that it is non-canon. The Chronicle does not say how the Night Elves joined the Alliance, this does not mean that the Night Elves are not members of the Alliance.


Malfurion literally says to use the power of the Aspects in the tree, not the power of the Well. We know this because you said so? It was Ghanir's acorn and if the tree itself was that powerful, the night elves would have other buffs after the Aspects' powers were spent. I have already explained to you the difference between the two situations.

[Wonderment2]

If the Aspects are so powerful, why didn't they kill the Lich King?

Neltharion was called the most powerful servant of the Old Gods (i.e. stronger than Ragnaros) and yet he barely managed to defeat Alexstrasza.

I assume because the Lich King, or Scourge in its entirety, could overpower them. Then bring back them as ungodly powerful frost wyrms. Tbh Arthas should have gotten Malygos while he could.

I don't know. But nothing I've seen in wow lore suggests the Aspects are so powerful that they should be able to simply destroy a powerful elemental.

[darkoms]

Alexstrasza loses the fight and Deathwing recovers fully after it. In the end raid, all four Aspects have to help to take him out and that's after Thrall has blasted him with the Demon Soul and he's missing most of his body. To whit, Ysera sits on her fat ass while we do all the work and Ragnaros has burned most of Hyjal.

The Aspects blessed the tree in the first place to contain the power of the Well. The original Well being destroyed is what let Malf kick the Legion out in the first place and the magic on the tree was as powerful as it was not because the Aspects randomly blessing shit made it so but because they were helping the Night Elves have their cake and eat it too and they had the new well to work with. The tree grows as fast as it does because of the well's power and it stands to reason the same applies to the other enchantments.

Once again, he barely defeated her, read the Chronicle. And because of his regeneration, he quickly recovered, but he defeated her with great difficulty. Do I have to tell you every detail from the Chronicles? At the end of the raid, N'zoth empowers him like never before (which is again stated in the Chronicle). At this point, Deathwing is no longer considered a normal Aspect, he is much stronger. And I say again, Deathwing was named the strongest Servant of the Old Gods BEFORE this raid (and even before some of the other buffs), meaning he was stronger than Ragnaros and still barely defeated Alexstrasza. How many more things do I need to explain to you? Sometimes I feel like I only go to this forum to tell people about what is written in books and Chronicles, because most people here at best just watched the cut-scenes in the game



They blessed the tree to KEEP the power of the Well. There is no mention of any sort of huge power within the Tree itself outside of the Aspects buff. Once again, do you have any proof that the tree grew so fast because of the power of the Well?

[Aucald]

You do know how much strength it took to kill Deathwing, right? 4 other Aspects and so on. It always seemed to me that it was Alexstrasza who finished off Malygos, judging by what she said to Deathwing, it was simply due to the limitations of the game that she was not in combat. They were also powerful adult dragons (and in the cut quote, Alexstrasza mentions that she personally blessed them).

The problem is, it's even dumber. 4 random dragons get the power of the elements and become stronger than the Elemental Lords themselves? What's the point?

According to the Chronicles, the Guardians fought against the Elemental Lords without their armies. The same goes for aspects and incarnations.

The four other Aspects weren't actually fighting Deathwing, though - they were channeling their Aspect power into the Dragon Soul held aloft by Thrall, to fire a final shot via the Soul such that the abomination Deathwing had become would be unmade. They also weren't present while the Horde/Alliance raid was busy prying off Deathwing's Elementium barding to make such an attack possible, either. Alexstrasza may also be the one to land the final blow on Malygos, but we're still canonically the ones who did the lion's share of the work in beating him down to make it possible - and its more likely Alexstrasza is talking about her role in killing Deathwing, as in supplying her material support to facilitate fratricide, not doing the actual killing herself.

According to Chronicle Vol.1 (pg. 31-32) it was the armies of Titanforged who contended with both the Old Gods and their elemental slaves, including the enslaved Lords. Of course, that's also neither here nor there - there's nothing patently wrong or silly about some elementally-infused dragons, especially ancient and powerful ones, eclipsing the Elemental Lords after being suffused with a surfeit of elemental energies. It's kind of dragon 101, when you get down to it - dragons in WoW have always had a knack for evolving when exposed to powerful essences or energies.

[darkoms]

I assume because the Lich King, or Scourge in its entirety, could overpower them. Then bring back them as ungodly powerful frost wyrms. Tbh Arthas should have gotten Malygos while he could.

I don't know. But nothing I've seen in wow lore suggests the Aspects are so powerful that they should be able to simply destroy a powerful elemental.

By your logic, Ragnaros and a huge army of elementals could have defeated them.


The Aspects surpassed Archimonde in magic and their power in Nordrassil was enough to kill him. I have pointed this out in previous comments.

- - - Updated - - -

The four other Aspects weren't actually fighting Deathwing, though - they were channeling their Aspect power into the Dragon Soul held aloft by Thrall, to fire a final shot via the Soul such that the abomination Deathwing had become would be unmade. They also weren't present while the Horde/Alliance raid was busy prying off Deathwing's Elementium barding to make such an attack possible, either. Alexstrasza may also be the one to land the final blow on Malygos, but we're still canonically the ones who did the lion's share of the work in beating him down to make it possible - and its more likely Alexstrasza is talking about her role in killing Deathwing, as in supplying her material support to facilitate fratricide, not doing the actual killing herself.

According to Chronicle Vol.1 (pg. 31-32) it was the armies of Titanforged who contended with both the Old Gods and their elemental slaves, including the enslaved Lords. Of course, that's also neither here nor there - there's nothing patently wrong or silly about some elementally-infused dragons, especially ancient and powerful ones, eclipsing the Elemental Lords after being suffused with a surfeit of elemental energies. It's kind of dragon 101, when you get down to it - dragons in WoW have always had a knack for evolving when exposed to powerful essences or energies.

Yes, it took the powers of the 4 Aspects, Thrall and the Soul Dragon to kill Deathwing. It's not the same as if we defeated Deathwing ourselves as you pointed out in your comment. Immediately after this phrase, Alexstrasza and Deathwing begin to fight 1v1.


Yes, like I said, armies fought armies, leaders fought leaders. There is nothing to suggest that Tyr and Odyn needed 200 more Watchers side by side to defeat Ragnaros. Random dragons are enhanced by Elements are stronger than the incarnations of these Elements, and don't you think that's stupid? In that case, I don't know what else to tell you.

[Wonderment2]

By your logic, Ragnaros and a huge army of elementals could have defeated them.

The Aspects surpassed Archimonde in magic and their power in Nordrassil was enough to kill him. I have pointed this out in previous comments.

Not exactly the same. The Scourge has been spefically stated as being a threat because of numbers. See thunder king Vs lich king. Also fire Elementals can convert the dead aspects into superweapons. So much are a greater risk to fight the scourge.

Ok then the aspects are shit guardians. Probably should have dealt with alot of stuff of their so powerful

[Super Dickmann]

What does it have to do with being close to the Titans? No, Keepers need armies to fight the Elemental Lords and their armies. You conveniently forget that the elementals had their armies too. But the Keepers fought against the Elemental Lords without the participation of their armies. Or the armies were on both sides. You are just misrepresenting lore with your statements..

I don't know why you're trying to use this as a counter-argument, that's exactly my point. Even if we take the armies out of the equation entirely, we've at best a ratio of 2v1 on Keepers vs Elemental lords. The Keepers were made to lead the Titanforged and Chronicle Vol. 1 makes a point of how the Titan Keepers split up their forces to fight each of the Elemental Lords. Even if we're being as pedantic as possible, both Odyn's own book in-game on his deed and Chronicle's objective accounts frames Tyr and Odyn as fighting Ragnaros in a 2v1.

As for what Chronicle describes, I'm not portraying it as an unreliable source or discounting your argument, the opposite. I say flat out in that same post you quote that while I loathe WotA and dragonwank in general that I'll have to wait another day for them to be retconned out and they're still canon as of Chronicle. I don't know how you could've missed this given that it's the crux of my complaint.

You're burying your own point with your last brainded argument. They were containing the power of the well through the tree and their blessings. They were special and so was their potency and Malfurion is explicitly using the enchantments placed upon it by the Aspects in those specific circumstances, which is why it can't seriously be argued that it's a feat for the Aspects in a vacuum that can be replicated at any other time. We know this ourselves, because the Aspects were unable to prevent pretty much anything of what happened in Cataclysm by themselves, including Ysera's powerlessness to do anything when Ragnaros destroyed her own backyard.