10.0 should remove the timer from Mythic+ dungeons...

[NineSpine]

Why does that suck? You've already stated that a casual player doesn't want to do any other content because Mythic Dungeons and Raids are off the table as they do not have a queue. When you artificially limit what content you find fun then of course you will have few options. That is never something game design can account for because it is a problem the player has created for themselves. Which means the game might not be the best game for a player to have fun with. It is okay for something to not have the same amount of enjoyment for every person alive.

You think design cannot account for different players preferring different activities?

It is okay for people to not like a game and to stop playing that game. Trying to make it 100% fun for everyone can often back fire. Just look at how offering more ways for casual players to gear up has been called "to quick" by you. Or that it forces a player to reject all other concept. Isn't it strange that attempts to do exactly what you want are also labeled as bad by you?

"Go away" is not an argument for why something is fun.

FF14 does exactly what I'm asking for. Destiny 2 does exactly what I'm asking for. GW2 does exactly what I am asking for. Maybe because they do it well (and three different ways) and WoW does it poorly when it does it at all? If someone wants to play casually and do dungeons and BGs sometimes, why shouldn't we give them rewards for doing so? How is the game made better by cutting them off almost immediately when they hit max level? Why would we work this hard to keep casual players out of content?

[rhorle]

"Go away" is not an argument for why something is fun.

I have never said it was. If you don't find you enjoy something then it is perfectly reasonable to stop doing that something, right? If FF14,Destiny 2, and GW2 does exactly what you are asking for then why not play those games over WoW? Why continue to play something that you don't find fun?

You can currently play casually and sometimes do dungeons and BGS while progressing the gear of your character. You keep making statements that don't actually align with the current state of the game. They are not cut off almost immediately. A casual player will take months to currently hit their maximum item level available with only the occasional M+.

Casual players are not being kept out of any content. It is their choice to not do the content that exists that is keeping them out of content.

[NineSpine]

I have never said it was. If you don't find you enjoy something then it is perfectly reasonable to stop doing that something, right? If FF14,Destiny 2, and GW2 does exactly what you are asking for then why not play those games over WoW? Why continue to play something that you don't find fun?

There's a reason that I want the game to be more fun and you just want people to leave.

You can currently play casually and sometimes do dungeons and BGS while progressing the gear of your character. You keep making statements that don't actually align with the current state of the game. They are not cut off almost immediately. A casual player will take months to currently hit their maximum item level available with only the occasional M+.

Casual players are not being kept out of any content. It is their choice to not do the content that exists that is keeping them out of content.

M+ is not casual content and casual players don't do it.

I think it is pretty clear at this point that you are incapable of providing a single sentence about making the game fun. All you have is smug, condescending demands to leave or to find different things fun. I know it is a tall order, to ask for a video game to be.... fun.... but the fact that "fun" is so confusing for so many wow fans is a great example of the problem here.

[Azharok]

The field clearly has both games, because wow clearly has casual and hardcore content and always has had both.

Yes because everyone and their grandmother had Thunderfury in Vanilla. Such a casual-friendly weapon. You talked about gear. End game gear was locked behind non queueable content in Vanilla, and it has been FOREVER.

[NineSpine]

Yes because everyone and their grandmother had Thunderfury in Vanilla. Such a casual-friendly weapon. You talked about gear. End game gear was locked behind non queueable content in Vanilla, and it has been FOREVER.

Do you know how long it took for a casual player to even get to the point of running raids in vanilla? The leveling alone took a casual oriented player months and months. That's why wow was such a smash hit. It was extremely friendly compared to other MMOs. If Shadowlands took that kind of time investment to reach that point, the conversation would be moot.

[rhorle]

There's a reason that I want the game to be more fun and you just want people to leave.

So do you also think that a game like Darksouls and Elden Ring should be made super easy to accomdate everyone? Or is it fine to have games that focus on a niche and isn't what everyone would enjoy?

M+ is not casual content and casual players don't do it.

Zerith Mortis cypher gear is equivalent to +8/9 end of dungeon gear. That means that lower then +8 is most certainly casual content as it is well within their level of gear. The problem seems to stem from you equating casual to having a queue. That isn't even close to what casual means but either way it does highlight how game design won't make people do things they don't want to do. So instead of designing the game around those who don't want to do things you design it for those who will choose to do things even if it is slightly outside of their comfort zone.

All video games do not have to be fun for everyone in the world. That is something you keep ignoring and instead insult and deflect. If you don't find WoW to be fun then stop playing and find a game that will be fun. You've named several that you say do exactly what you find to be fun. So why play WoW which you don't find to be fun over the games that you do find to be fun? At this point you are purposefully subjecting your self to negativity for whatever reason.

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Do you know how long it took for a casual player to even get to the point of running raids in vanilla? The leveling alone took a casual oriented player months and months. That's why wow was such a smash hit. It was extremely friendly compared to other MMOs. If Shadowlands took that kind of time investment to reach that point, the conversation would be moot.

Right. It has nothing to do with gearing progression but having things artificially timegated.

[Azharok]

Do you know how long it took for a casual player to even get to the point of running raids in vanilla? The leveling alone took a casual oriented player months and months. That's why wow was such a smash hit. It was extremely friendly compared to other MMOs. If Shadowlands took that kind of time investment to reach that point, the conversation would be moot.

And from BC onwards, leveling has gotten faster and faster. But end-game has remained more or less the same, we might be able to guess on who asked for faster leveling ?! Maybe the casuals who didn't want to spend weeks or months leveling ? Or was is the hardcore that were already playing 10 hours per day to stay on top. I personally don't know the answer. But it's still worth wondering imho. Besides onces you hit max level if you didn't raid there was/isn't much to do in WoW if you're after gear progression, and it's gotten better every Xpac in that regards, not worse.

Queueable content wasn't a thing till Wotlk, so you couldn't get gear as a casual before that. The casuals asked for a hand, blizz game them the hand, and now they want the whole arm.

[NineSpine]

So do you also think that a game like Darksouls and Elden Ring should be made super easy to accomdate everyone? Or is it fine to have games that focus on a niche and isn't what everyone would enjoy?

I didn't say to make wow super easy, and it is not fine to ram an MMO into a niche. That's how MMOs fail.

Zerith Mortis cypher gear is equivalent to +8/9 end of dungeon gear. That means that lower then +8 is most certainly casual content as it is well within their level of gear. The problem seems to stem from you equating casual to having a queue. That isn't even close to what casual means but either way it does highlight how game design won't make people do things they don't want to do. So instead of designing the game around those who don't want to do things you design it for those who will choose to do things even if it is slightly outside of their comfort zone.

Casual content is solo or queue content. Anything you have to organize a group for is not casual.

All video games do not have to be fun for everyone in the world. That is something you keep ignoring and instead insult and deflect. If you don't find WoW to be fun then stop playing and find a game that will be fun. You've named several that you say do exactly what you find to be fun. So why play WoW which you don't find to be fun over the games that you do find to be fun? At this point you are purposefully subjecting your self to negativity for whatever reason.

I don't think you realize how bad of an argument "It's fine to make the game less fun for no reason, because not all games have to be fun for everyone" is. You are conceding that you don't want the game to be more fun, which just raises the question: Why? What kind of weird, perverse, creepy issues do you have where you derive pleasure from the game being less fun for other people? Do you understand how weird that is? That's as weird as demanding that Target stop carrying toys because it upsets you if someone else has fun.

Right. It has nothing to do with gearing progression but having things artificially timegated.

Vanilla isn't artificially time gated.

[Mendo Kusai]

no, if they give the same rewards most people will take the easier route, not bcs they like it more, simply bcs its easier
if it gives far lower reward (which is logical as it would be far easier) i wouldnt mind untimed version but... thats already INGAME, you can do that by simply ignoring timer... and you dont even get that much worse rewards...

Thats the point, its already in game but in a scuffed way, and you dont really mind since you are suggesting we simply use that.
Why not let us have a proper new mode where it will be easy for players to find other players with similar mindset?
And they both would give the exact same gear, I was very specific about that, the goal would be to make it so you can completely ignore the non timed version if you prefer the timed one.

The only argument against this is the non timed version doesnt deserve the same gear.
I think they both deserve gear, but if you do the timed version you get rankings, achievements, mounts, teleport etc.
Would that not be good enough for you?

[NineSpine]

And from BC onwards, leveling has gotten faster and faster. But end-game has remained more or less the same, we might be able to guess on who asked for faster leveling ?! Maybe the casuals who didn't want to spend weeks or months leveling ? Or was is the hardcore that were already playing 10 hours per day to stay on top. I personally don't know the answer. But it's still worth wondering imho. Besides onces you hit max level if you didn't raid there was/isn't much to do in WoW if you're after gear progression, and it's gotten better every Xpac in that regards, not worse.

Queueable content wasn't a thing till Wotlk, so you couldn't get gear as a casual before that. The casuals asked for a hand, blizz game them the hand, and now they want the whole arm.

It wasn't casuals that asked for less leveling. That was the endgame progression obsessed players who wanted to get to raiding as fast as possible and felt oppressed by how much of a pain in the ass leveling alts was. It is not "better" to be done gearing a few days after hitting max level, which itself was an exercise that took a few days. Running out of rewarding content isn't fun, and it's really weird to me that so many of you folks think that what casuals asked for was no endgame loop and just "You are done!" immediately. The people who asked for casual content to be a trivial part of the game are hardcore players that didn't want to climb the ladder through casual content to get to their raids and other hardcore activities.

[Azharok]

I don't think you realize how bad of an argument "It's fine to make the game less fun for no reason, because not all games have to be fun for everyone" is. You are conceding that you don't want the game to be more fun, which just raises the question: Why? What kind of weird, perverse, creepy issues do you have where you derive pleasure from the game being less fun for other people? Do you understand how weird that is? That's as weird as demanding that Target stop carrying toys because it upsets you if someone else has fun.

My glasses must not work properly then, because nowhere have I seen him say that they (blizz) made the game less fun for no reason, they haven't changed their core formula so I must've been "unfun" back then. If anything you're allowed to do "more" casual content now than you did back then.

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It wasn't casuals that asked for less leveling. That was the endgame progression obsessed players who wanted to get to raiding as fast as possible and felt oppressed by how much of a pain in the ass leveling alts was. It is not "better" to be done gearing a few days after hitting max level, which itself was an exercise that took a few days. Running out of rewarding content isn't fun, and it's really weird to me that so many of you folks think that what casuals asked for was no endgame loop and just "You are done!" immediately. The people who asked for casual content to be a trivial part of the game are hardcore players that didn't want to climb the ladder through casual content to get to their raids and other hardcore activities.

Source for those claims.

edit : you mentionned GW2, I don't remember Guild Wars2 having queueable content, so by your definition you couldn't get ascended or raid gear in that game too ...

[rhorle]

I didn't say to make wow super easy, and it is not fine to ram an MMO into a niche. That's how MMOs fail.

WoW has survived for 17 years being a niche. It was created to be a more casual version of Everquest. Both were still very much niche and focused on Raiding.

Casual content is solo or queue content. Anything you have to organize a group for is not casual.

Clicking "join group" is hardly being organized. You clearly don't understand how low key group usually works.

Vanilla isn't artificially time gated.

So why did leveling take longer in Vanilla then it does now? Blizzard sets the amount of XP required to gain each level. So that means they control how big of a time gate leveling is and that they intentionally made leveling in Vanilla take longer to extend that content for "casuals".

[NineSpine]

My glasses must not work properly then, because nowhere have I seen him say that they (blizz) made the game less fun for no reason, they haven't changed their core formula so I must've been "unfun" back then. If anything you're allowed to do "more" casual content now than you did back then.

Source for those claims.

edit : you mentionned GW2, I don't remember Guild Wars2 having queueable content, so by your definition you couldn't get ascended or raid gear in that game too ...

The core formula has changed dramatically. To deny this is just to engage in boring sophistry.

In GW2 it is pretty trivial to get ascended gear without doing any organized group content.

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WoW has survived for 17 years being a niche. It was created to be a more casual version of Everquest. Both were still very much niche and focused on Raiding.

Everquest is still alive too, but if you used that to prove that the game is healthy and not making mistakes... that would be pretty laughable wouldn't it?

Clicking "join group" is hardly being organized. You clearly don't understand how low key group usually works.

That's what organized content is.

So why did leveling take longer in Vanilla then it does now? Blizzard sets the amount of XP required to gain each level. So that means they control how big of a time gate leveling is and that they intentionally made leveling in Vanilla take longer to extend that content for "casuals".

That's not what time gate means. Time gate is when progression is GATED by TIME, as in you cannot move forward until a set point in time.

How about you just go ahead and simply state why locking power progression behind content people don't want to do is fun? This should be trivial if it is fun.

[rhorle]

Everquest is still alive too, but if you used that to prove that the game is healthy and not making mistakes... that would be pretty laughable wouldn't it?

Everquest made $11.5 million in 2020 with 66k subscribers. The game seems to be doing just fine. No where did I say that they never made mistakes in developments. Stop making things up.

That's what organized content is.

Hitting Join Queue or Join group is essentially the same thing. There is little organization to low keys because most of the game play happens naturally just as it would with a queue.

That's not what time gate means. Time gate is when progression is GATED by TIME, as in you cannot move forward until a set point in time.

XP earned is always gated by time. Time spent grinding, time spent on bonus objectives, time spent in a dungeon etc. Blizzard has adjusted XP values to speed up leveling and slow it back down. Usually around the time of an expansion launch. The current expansion would have the time required to level reduced because it was going to be "old".

[Easyclassictopkeklel]

M+ is fine. Just because some people don't like it, it does not mean it has to be changed. Especially at lower key levels the timers are very generous, but if you aren't interested in improving as a player and challenge yourself...guess what...simply play something else. Don't expect to get trophies if you dont participate tho.

[Mendo Kusai]

M+ is fine. Just because some people don't like it, it does not mean it has to be changed. Especially at lower key levels the timers are very generous, but if you aren't interested in improving as a player and challenge yourself...guess what...simply play something else. Don't expect to get trophies if you dont participate tho.

I like m+ and I used to raidlead a mythic guild, the difficulty is not the problem, its how dreadful it is to just engage with the system.
Personally, im just trying to find a solution to make it more enjoyable to engage with. And if we can come up with a solution, one that would not change the way m+ currently works for those who enjoy it, then I think it can only be benificial for the game.

[Azharok]

The core formula has changed dramatically. To deny this is just to engage in boring sophistry.

Please enlighten me on how it changed then.

I retract my GW2 statement, I wasn't aware I could get BiS by engaging in the most dragged out and boring grind there is.

[NineSpine]

Please enlighten me on how it changed then.

I retract my GW2 statement, I wasn't aware I could get BiS by engaging in the most dragged out and boring grind there is.

Do you seriously need me to explain to you how different vanilla is from shadowlands? It's so obvious on its face that it feels like the type of person that would need that explained is the same type of person that is wasting my time by asking and disinterested in anything approaching a reasonable conversation.

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[QUOTE=rhorle;53756886]Everquest made $11.5 million in 2020 with 66k subscribers. The game seems to be doing just fine. No where did I say that they never made mistakes in developments. Stop making things up.

Hitting Join Queue or Join group is essentially the same thing. There is little organization to low keys because most of the game play happens naturally just as it would with a queue.

XP earned is always gated by time. Time spent grinding, time spent on bonus objectives, time spent in a dungeon etc. Blizzard has adjusted XP values to speed up leveling and slow it back down. Usually around the time of an expansion launch. The current expansion would have the time required to level reduced because it was going to be "old".

That's not what a time gate is. A time gate is when you are blocked from moving forward until a particular point in time. These words have meanings. By your logic, everything is a time gate because everything takes times. You make the term meaningless in your attempt to deflect with more sophistry. And what are we deflecting from? A continued inability to perform the simply task of stating why the game is more fun when you lock power gains behind content most people dislike doing.

[rhorle]

That's not what a time gate is. A time gate is when you are blocked from moving forward until a particular point in time. These words have meanings. By your logic, everything is a time gate because everything takes times. You make the term meaningless in your attempt to deflect with more sophistry. And what are we deflecting from? A continued inability to perform the simply task of stating why the game is more fun when you lock power gains behind content most people dislike doing.

A time gate can be disguised in many different ways. Everything is not a time gate just because it takes time. Leveling is a time gate because Blizzard adjusts the value for the the time they think it should take to get to the current expansion.

I've also answered your question several times. You just don't like the answer you got.

[NineSpine]

A time gate can be disguised in many different ways. Everything is not a time gate just because it takes time. Leveling is a time gate because Blizzard adjusts the value for the the time they think it should take to get to the current expansion.

I've also answered your question several times. You just don't like the answer you got.

That's not what time gate means. A time gate means it is locked until an arbitrary point in time. The fact that you can grind past it means it isn't a time gate. Leveling is not a time gate. "You cant progress until next week" is a time gate.

You have not answered the question, but declaring victory to avoid answering it is not a tactic I'm shocked by.