Mannoroth vs Lich King Arthas

[darkoms]

That's DK Arthas not LK Arthas. Lol.

If you bothered to read the post I was replying to, you would see that it was written that Arthas defeated Illidan and I'm just clarifying exactly how Arthas won. But why burden yourself and read extra words, right?

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Do you have proof that this will affect Arthas?

Will affect what? His armor was pierced by the bone of Galakrond, his helmet Sylvanas broke with her bare hands, if you think that Arthas will withstand a blow to the head of the Gorehowl, then I do not know how to help you

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Strategy > Power.

I don't know, the Lich King is smarter than Lei Shen, but he would lose in a 1x1 battle

[Tarba]

Manoroth is mostly known for being the most discreet 10 meters high burning demon who ever existed... that's his greatest achievment.
He got twice killed by a strike from an orc. A strong one, but still an orc. He had a great axe, yeah, but Arthas has a freaking great sword.
Illidan who was stronger than tichondrius and was without much doubt stronger than manoroth got defeated by a non lich king Arthas. I don't care about the "he got overconfident blablabla" bullshit. If he is more powerfull but still lose in a duel, it means that his opponant was greater than him.
Azshara is very powerfull but a rogue cut her throat while she does not look and she's still dead.

Arthas has proven that he could defeat someone stronger than manoroth without having his full power unlocked. And manoroth has proven that he could be defeated by normal enemies... twice.

[darkoms]

Manoroth is mostly known for being the most discreet 10 meters high burning demon who ever existed... that's his greatest achievment.
He got twice killed by a strike from an orc. A strong one, but still an orc. He had a great axe, yeah, but Arthas has a freaking great sword.
Illidan who was stronger than tichondrius and was without much doubt stronger than manoroth got defeated by a non lich king Arthas. I don't care about the "he got overconfident blablabla" bullshit. If he is more powerfull but still lose in a duel, it means that his opponant was greater than him.
Azshara is very powerfull but a rogue cut her throat while she does not look and she's still dead.

Arthas has proven that he could defeat someone stronger than manoroth without having his full power unlocked. And manoroth has proven that he could be defeated by normal enemies... twice.

There is so much bullshit and Arthas fanboyism here that I don't even know where to start.


1. In both cases, he did not expect this blow, it was not a direct battle. The charged Doomhammer barely scratched Mannoroth's wing.
2. We have no idea if Illidan is stronger than Mannoroth. He was knocked down by Azgoth, a random pit lord, and defeated Magtheridon because Magtheridon was lazy and hadn't fought in a long time.
3. The problem is that Arthas didn't defeat him with his skills or something like that. Illidan burned him alive and Arthas fell to the ground in pain. Illidan approached him to finish him off, and Arthas unexpectedly hit him with Frostmourne. If Illidan wanted to kill him with magic or eye rays, Arthas couldn't do anything. And Arthas is weaker than Lei Shen, so I highly doubt he can defeat Mannoroth.
4. That is, according to your logic (it doesn’t matter who and how won, the main fact) is Tirion stronger than the Lich King? Just to clarify, does your power level look like Tirion>Arthas>Illidan>Mannoroth?

[tommyhil622]

Do you have proof that this will affect Mannoroth?
Mannoroth never lost a battle to an orc. On the first occasion he didn't expect Grommash to attack him, on the second he was distracted by other orcs and an iron star. I mean, Arthas would have died too if he fought in exactly the same conditions.

Is there proof that Arthas would have died to it?

Again it's irrelevant.

Mannoroth did lose to an orc on 2 occasions lol. We have never been shown a Mannoroth that is some sort of powerhouse of combat. However, we have plenty of examples of the Lich King being quite formidable. There's no question that Mannoroth is out matched by the Lich King in power and in combat.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Is there proof that Arthas would have died to it?

I believe that it's explicitly stated in Arthas: Rise of the Lich King that this is the case, but it could have also been Chronicle. Full disclosure, I've not looked at my books in years as I put them in my storage unit the moment Danuser started retconning Chronicle.

Mannoroth did lose to an orc on 2 occasions lol. We have never been shown a Mannoroth that is some sort of powerhouse of combat. However, we have plenty of examples of the Lich King being quite formidable. There's no question that Mannoroth is out matched by the Lich King in power and in combat.

There's a thing in comics called PIS, which stands for Plot Induced Stupidity. It's essentially used when writers do something or make something happen which isn't congruent with the story as a whole or established canon (i.e.: imagine Superman winning a serious race with the Flash [Wally West]). In Warcraft, this was sort of re-contextualized as the "rule of cool", where the expected result of a situation can be undermined for the sake of something being cool (such as Grommash casually jumping through an explosion that pushed back Mannoroth, who would weigh thousands of kilos).

Logically speaking, Mannoroth vs. Grommash should be a foregone conclusion. Mannoroth is stronger, he's a better fighter, he's more experienced, and he's smarter (although you wouldn't know it, given how the Legion frequently acts like idiots); however, Grommash has to win for the story to progress. Consider this: did we beat Arthas in Icecrown? Honestly, I would argue that we didn't. Arthas was killed, and we killed him, but we only managed this because of PIS. It's a feat which is ascribed to us and Tirion because we did do it, but we can all acknowledge that we don't really deserve full credit; it was only managed because of a big deus ex machina.

[Tarba]

There is so much bullshit and Arthas fanboyism here that I don't even know where to start.


1. In both cases, he did not expect this blow, it was not a direct battle. The charged Doomhammer barely scratched Mannoroth's wing.
2. We have no idea if Illidan is stronger than Mannoroth. He was knocked down by Azgoth, a random pit lord, and defeated Magtheridon because Magtheridon was lazy and hadn't fought in a long time.
3. The problem is that Arthas didn't defeat him with his skills or something like that. Illidan burned him alive and Arthas fell to the ground in pain. Illidan approached him to finish him off, and Arthas unexpectedly hit him with Frostmourne. If Illidan wanted to kill him with magic or eye rays, Arthas couldn't do anything. And Arthas is weaker than Lei Shen, so I highly doubt he can defeat Mannoroth.
4. That is, according to your logic (it doesn’t matter who and how won, the main fact) is Tirion stronger than the Lich King? Just to clarify, does your power level look like Tirion>Arthas>Illidan>Mannoroth?

1. in both case he is a bad fighter then.
2. He got maghteridon and tichondrius. He is strong. And as far as prowess in combat, he is above manoroth who never showed anything impressive against an actual fighter
3. Illidan lost. He lost against death knight Arthas. Him acting retarded in such a perillous duel and therefore losing means he was a worse fighter than death knight Arthas.
4. Like I said. Power level means shit unless you are some king of dbz fan boy. A random rogue cut the throat of azshara and as powerfull as she is, she's dead meat.
If a death knight Arthas can defeat Illidan. And a grom can defeat manoroth. I have no doubt that lich king Arthas who could defeat alone a team of the greatest champions of azeroth can defeat manoroth.

[ArenaDk]

1. in both case he is a bad fighter then.
2. He got maghteridon and tichondrius. He is strong. And as far as prowess in combat, he is above manoroth who never showed anything impressive against an actual fighter
3. Illidan lost. He lost against death knight Arthas. Him acting retarded in such a perillous duel and therefore losing means he was a worse fighter than death knight Arthas.
4. Like I said. Power level means shit unless you are some king of dbz fan boy. A random rogue cut the throat of azshara and as powerfull as she is, she's dead meat.
If a death knight Arthas can defeat Illidan. And a grom can defeat manoroth. I have no doubt that lich king Arthas who could defeat alone a team of the greatest champions of azeroth can defeat manoroth.

Only that deathknight Arthas couldn’t defeat Illidan. The only two hits he landed were done by automatic plot magic from frostmourne, not by himself and it was never shown again that it can do such thing.

[Tarba]

Only that deathknight Arthas couldn’t defeat Illidan. The only two hits he landed were done by automatic plot magic from frostmourne, not by himself and it was never shown again that it can do such thing.

If I remember the fight correctly. Illidan was down on the ground bleeding to death while Arthas was walking away toward the lich king.

If you want to say it that way. Death knight Arthas with frostmourne's "plot magic" bested demon form Illidan with guldan's skull's "plot magic".

[ArenaDk]

If I remember the fight correctly. Illidan was down on the ground bleeding to death while Arthas was walking away toward the lich king.

If you want to say it that way. Death knight Arthas with frostmourne's "plot magic" bested demon form Illidan with guldan's skull's "plot magic".

How can you compare frostmourne attacking 2 times without Arthas wanting it to Illidan getting power from the skull which was shown to have a ability of empowering multiple times before while frostmourne never moved on its own afterwards or before ?

The only times Illidan was wounded vs Arthas was without Arthas being part of it.

[cparle87]

Mannoroth was killed by an Orc.

Illidan is a superhuman Night Elf who can fly.

Arthas beat Illidan.

Arthas > Illidan >>> Grommash > Mannoroth.

Also Arthas one shotted an entire raid party of the world's most powerful warriors (why he didn't he stroll into Stormwind/Orgrimmar and do that from the beginning of Wrath, blame the writers).

He basically used Tirion to train and equip the strongest fighting force in the world and deliver them to him to kill and raise. He spells it out pretty clearly. It's that trope where we inadverdantly deliver to the baddie what he wants, except what we deliver to him is ourselves. We mowed through his most elite forces to get there, he gets even more elite troops. We fail to get through his forces, he gets new cannon fodder anyway.

[Tarba]

How can you compare frostmourne attacking 2 times without Arthas wanting it to Illidan getting power from the skull which was shown to have a ability of empowering multiple times before while frostmourne never moved on its own afterwards or before ?

The only times Illidan was wounded vs Arthas was without Arthas being part of it.

Well two things. Either frostmourne does not have that ability and arthas bested Illidan on its own. Or frostmourne has that spécial ability and Arthas bested Illidan with it.
Frostmourne has always been a particular weapon with somehow her own will or the one of the lich king behind it.

Still in all cases Illidan lost to Arthas. Death knight Arthas with frostmourne bested Illidan with guldan's skull.
I don't know what kind of mental gimnastic you are trying to do here. No matter how much you try to distord things facts are facts.
And the fact here is that Illidan lost to Arthas in a duel.

[ArenaDk]

Well two things. Either frostmourne does not have that ability and arthas bested Illidan on its own. Or frostmourne has that spécial ability and Arthas bested Illidan with it.
Frostmourne has always been a particular weapon with somehow her own will or the one of the lich king behind it.

Still in all cases Illidan lost to Arthas. Death knight Arthas with frostmourne bested Illidan with guldan's skull.
I don't know what kind of mental gimnastic you are trying to do here. No matter how much you try to distord things facts are facts.
And the fact here is that Illidan lost to Arthas in a duel.

I give up, you can’t talk to Arthas fan boys.

Here so you are happy. Arthas is the most awesome greates amazing guy, such a deep story and so stronk. Everything happening with him was his own power and he has no plot armor at all. Yes yes, you really opened my eyes

[Tarba]

I give up, you can’t talk to Arthas fan boys.

Here so you are happy. Arthas is the most awesome greates amazing guy, such a deep story and so stronk. Everything happening with him was his own power and he has no plot armor at all. Yes yes, you really opened my eyes

... so. We have two vidéos and a book where Arthas win his duel against illidan. And somehow you get outraged when someone says that Arthas defeated Illidan.
I'm sorry pal, you are the fanboy here. I'm just saying facts while you are trying to find excuses.

[Enter Name Here]

how on earth (or azeroth?) can you justify losing a fight because "you did not expect them to strike"

mannoroth dies
reappears in the nether
Sargeras: you failed, what happened?
Mannoroth: i did not expect a slave to fight back
Sargeras: *facepalming* i should've stayed with the pantheon...

[vian]

You do know that Arthas was weaker than Illidan, right? Illidan lost only because of his overconfidence (as did Mannoroth).



Arthas won only after a long and hard battle, it was not a one-shot. Read Chronicles.

A loss is a loss, no matter how you twist it.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Only that deathknight Arthas couldn’t defeat Illidan. The only two hits he landed were done by automatic plot magic from frostmourne, not by himself and it was never shown again that it can do such thing.

Can you clarify what you mean by "plot magic from Frostmourne", as this seems to be in direct opposition to how the fight is described in Arthas: Rise of the Lich King? In most media, the connection between Arthas and Frostmourne is considered special, and I don't recall Frostmourne doing anything on its own. Illidan lost because he left himself open and there's nothing more to say. Arrogance is a weakness, and if you are beaten because of it you don't get to fall back on arguments of strength (i.e.: you can be as strong as you want, but if you have a character flaw that impacts your ability to win fights, you don't get to discount those losses).

That said, this whole rabbit hole that you guys have gone down is entirely pointless. Comparing Arthas as he arrives at Icecrown to Illidan doesn't even accurately represent their current standing. By all metrics, Illidan was a better fighter than Arthas during that encounter, with the equalizing factor being character flaws that Illidan had. However, when comparing the Arthas being talked about (i.e.: Lich King Arthas) and Illidan, the argument basically ends when you point out that the same people who handily defeated Illidan were immediately and without recourse killed outright by the Lich King. Illidan as we saw him in Black Temple, and probably as he was in Legion since I don't think he got any power amplification, is substantially weaker than the Lich King Arthas and is not going to be a favorable metric when comparing "power level".

That said, people need to keep in mind that Illidan vs. Arthas has no bearing on this thread. We already know that Mannoroth is likely substantially stronger than Illidan and is a bad measuring stick in this case. Looking at the Well of Eternity dungeon, Mannoroth fought Illidan, Tyrande, and several heroes who would go on to kill Deathwing while only receiving meager help from some fodder demons, and did so while controlling the magic of the Well of Eternity by himself to keep the Burning Legion's portal open, with our "win" condition there is just momentarily breaking his concentration. It bears repeating that Mannoroth, while in the midst of controlling the magic of Azeroth to maintain one of the most powerful portals to ever exist in the Warcraft universe, one which Sargeras himself could travel through, was still capable of fighting two of the most powerful heroes in Warcraft and a handful of the most influential adventurers to ever exist and all we managed to do was break his concentration. We can further this by pointing to Magtheridon and Azgoth, two Pit Lords who are substantially below Mannoroth in rank (implying they are also weaker), and Illidan was unable to deal with either of these Pit Lords by himself (Azgoth was even going to kill Illidan before Kor'vas saved him). But we then get to the problem where Mannoroth is constantly treated as a joke by Blizzard, and is killed off quickly and is portrayed as almost being trivial to deal with ("lmao, big burny boy killed by one angry green lad").

Mannoroth should, without a doubt, take this fight easily, but it's going to be hard to convince players of this.

[sam86]

basically depend on whatever writer decided to, and with Danasur in power they will f8ck Arthas out of spit as they did to his soul in SL
tldr: Arthas by miles, u can't ignore how stupid Mannaroth died, he became a joke to degree that in horde we were joking on Twisting Neither server we need Mannaroth as our training dummy for our orcs in orgrimmar, also LK turned to loot piniata by WoD time too and u can melee him as mage, he still at his time was no joke, while Mannaroth in his own exp WoD IS a joke

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Is there proof that Arthas would have died to it?

Again it's irrelevant.

Mannoroth did lose to an orc on 2 occasions lol. We have never been shown a Mannoroth that is some sort of powerhouse of combat. However, we have plenty of examples of the Lich King being quite formidable. There's no question that Mannoroth is out matched by the Lich King in power and in combat.

he was humiliated not just 'lost', Mannoroth get axed for breakfast was a rampaging joke during WoD era, a guide video for Mannoroth fight in HFC joked at start just get an axe and give it to an orc and he will 1 shot him

[darkoms]

Is there proof that Arthas would have died to it?

Again it's irrelevant.

Mannoroth did lose to an orc on 2 occasions lol. We have never been shown a Mannoroth that is some sort of powerhouse of combat. However, we have plenty of examples of the Lich King being quite formidable. There's no question that Mannoroth is out matched by the Lich King in power and in combat.

What would he die from what? From Blight? We have already seen that he did not die (although given that he hastened to leave from there, he clearly did not want to stay there). But that's not the point. You gave me an example where Mannoroth was shown weak, I gave you an example where Arthas was shown weak, after which you said that Mannoroth would also be affected and after I asked you for proof, you ask me a question again, but already about the death of Arthas. I'm used to Arthas fans never giving me proof, but that's pretty brazen, don't you think? If you don’t have proof that this will affect Mannoroth, then maybe you won’t say it at all?



If you want to simplify like that, then let's just say that Arthas almost died due to rot and was defeated twice by the old man. Arthas fans never doubt the strength of their idol, even if it contradicts everything we know

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1. in both case he is a bad fighter then.
2. He got maghteridon and tichondrius. He is strong. And as far as prowess in combat, he is above manoroth who never showed anything impressive against an actual fighter
3. Illidan lost. He lost against death knight Arthas. Him acting retarded in such a perillous duel and therefore losing means he was a worse fighter than death knight Arthas.
4. Like I said. Power level means shit unless you are some king of dbz fan boy. A random rogue cut the throat of azshara and as powerfull as she is, she's dead meat.
If a death knight Arthas can defeat Illidan. And a grom can defeat manoroth. I have no doubt that lich king Arthas who could defeat alone a team of the greatest champions of azeroth can defeat manoroth.

1. Malfurion killed Saurfang's elite guards in a few seconds (no magic, just his physical strength), and also in bear form was fast enough to kill Horde soldiers without them even noticing him. But having received an ax in the back, he almost died. That doesn't make him a bad fighter. Context matters
2. Tichondrius is hardly a fighter, rather a manipulator. Illidan himself noted that defeating Magtheridon was not difficult because Magtheridon had become lazy and had not fought anyone for a long time.
3. Illidan almost burned him alive and when he came to finish him off, Arthas struck. If he wanted to kill him with magic, Arthas couldn't do anything. Illidan was a jerk, but he was clearly much more powerful.
4. Because this isn't going to be a direct fight, you can't really say that the rogue is stronger than Azshara. It just points to her mortality. She might as well choke on her wine or have a statue fall on her while she can't see. In direct combat, Azshara will simply place a magical shield that the rogue cannot penetrate. I ask you again, if only victory is important, and not context, does this mean that Tirion is stronger than the Lich King, Illidan and Mannoroth?

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A loss is a loss, no matter how you twist it.

So, Tirion>Lich King?

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how on earth (or azeroth?) can you justify losing a fight because "you did not expect them to strike"

mannoroth dies
reappears in the nether
Sargeras: you failed, what happened?
Mannoroth: i did not expect a slave to fight back
Sargeras: *facepalming* i should've stayed with the pantheon...

Because it wasn't a fight. Mannoroth thought he was still in complete control of Grommash due to the demon blood in his veins. You don't usually expect your dog to bite you. And the second time, Mannoroth was distracted by other orcs and an iron star.

[Enter Name Here]

Tirion>Lich King?

sure. he overcame his frost magic and oneshot him ín a jump attack. something a group of azeroths most powerful adventurers was not able to do.

[darkoms]

Can you clarify what you mean by "plot magic from Frostmourne", as this seems to be in direct opposition to how the fight is described in Arthas: Rise of the Lich King? In most media, the connection between Arthas and Frostmourne is considered special, and I don't recall Frostmourne doing anything on its own. Illidan lost because he left himself open and there's nothing more to say. Arrogance is a weakness, and if you are beaten because of it you don't get to fall back on arguments of strength (i.e.: you can be as strong as you want, but if you have a character flaw that impacts your ability to win fights, you don't get to discount those losses).

That said, this whole rabbit hole that you guys have gone down is entirely pointless. Comparing Arthas as he arrives at Icecrown to Illidan doesn't even accurately represent their current standing. By all metrics, Illidan was a better fighter than Arthas during that encounter, with the equalizing factor being character flaws that Illidan had. However, when comparing the Arthas being talked about (i.e.: Lich King Arthas) and Illidan, the argument basically ends when you point out that the same people who handily defeated Illidan were immediately and without recourse killed outright by the Lich King. Illidan as we saw him in Black Temple, and probably as he was in Legion since I don't think he got any power amplification, is substantially weaker than the Lich King Arthas and is not going to be a favorable metric when comparing "power level".

That said, people need to keep in mind that Illidan vs. Arthas has no bearing on this thread. We already know that Mannoroth is likely substantially stronger than Illidan and is a bad measuring stick in this case. Looking at the Well of Eternity dungeon, Mannoroth fought Illidan, Tyrande, and several heroes who would go on to kill Deathwing while only receiving meager help from some fodder demons, and did so while controlling the magic of the Well of Eternity by himself to keep the Burning Legion's portal open, with our "win" condition there is just momentarily breaking his concentration. It bears repeating that Mannoroth, while in the midst of controlling the magic of Azeroth to maintain one of the most powerful portals to ever exist in the Warcraft universe, one which Sargeras himself could travel through, was still capable of fighting two of the most powerful heroes in Warcraft and a handful of the most influential adventurers to ever exist and all we managed to do was break his concentration. We can further this by pointing to Magtheridon and Azgoth, two Pit Lords who are substantially below Mannoroth in rank (implying they are also weaker), and Illidan was unable to deal with either of these Pit Lords by himself (Azgoth was even going to kill Illidan before Kor'vas saved him). But we then get to the problem where Mannoroth is constantly treated as a joke by Blizzard, and is killed off quickly and is portrayed as almost being trivial to deal with ("lmao, big burny boy killed by one angry green lad").

Mannoroth should, without a doubt, take this fight easily, but it's going to be hard to convince players of this.

I miss Qualia. He wanked Archimonde a lot, but because he was also a fan of Illidan, it was very helpful to have him by his side during such disputes.

But I assume you haven't read the Illidan book? 4 facts from there:
1. Illidan was barely at full strength when we fought him in the Black Temple. Due to an unsuccessful ritual with the souls of the draenei before the battle, Illidan was very weak and practically dead. Illidan himself notes that if the heroes do not kill him, he himself will die in a couple of days. Even so, he used up the rest of his strength to bind the Demon Hunters so they could return after completing the task. And he actually defeated the heroes. In the book, he notes that he killed many of them (but assumes that they were either the weakest, or he himself was tired during the battle and cannot easily kill others), in the raid he endlessly stuns the heroes, prepares to kill them and Maiev appears to save them. Just as the heroes would have lost without Tirion, the heroes would have lost without Maiev (and this despite the fact that Akama already helped them). And you have to consider that heroes in Wotlk are stronger than heroes in BC.
2. He defeated Magtheridon on his own, the others were only needed to magically bind Mannoroth.
3. Maiev described A'dal as capable of destroying cities and mountains. Akama (also in Adal's presence) said that Illidan was doing magic that only the gods could do. Adal himself noted that Illidan had enough power to call himself Lord of Outland.
4. Illidan blew up Nathreza. He did almost the same as Ner'zhul, only without a bunch of powerful artifacts, a long ritual and a special state of the stars. He just mathematically calculated how to cause the portal to collapse so that it would blow up the planet.


I don't want to turn this thread into Illidan vs Arthas, but it's not as straightforward as you think.



There were only 5 of these heroes and they still wouldn't have done anything to Deathwing without the Soul Dragon, the Aspects and Thrall, but yes, you're right, Mannoroth is actually tougher than he looks. People just think that Bloodhowl is just an ordinary ax and that Mannoroth can be killed by anything, and they forget that a charged Doomhammer barely scratched his wing, an iron star explosion only angered him, and Varo'then's magic sword in his body (and a sword reinforced with an arcane should greatly harm the demon) didn't stop him from continuing to maintain the portal. But people are not used to straining their brains, it's easier to just say ''lol he was killed by an orc with an ax''


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basically depend on whatever writer decided to, and with Danasur in power they will f8ck Arthas out of spit as they did to his soul in SL
tldr: Arthas by miles, u can't ignore how stupid Mannaroth died, he became a joke to degree that in horde we were joking on Twisting Neither server we need Mannaroth as our training dummy for our orcs in orgrimmar, also LK turned to loot piniata by WoD time too and u can melee him as mage, he still at his time was no joke, while Mannaroth in his own exp WoD IS a joke

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he was humiliated not just 'lost', Mannoroth get axed for breakfast was a rampaging joke during WoD era, a guide video for Mannoroth fight in HFC joked at start just get an axe and give it to an orc and he will 1 shot him

I didn't know memes are now evidence in this forum.

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sure. he overcame his frost magic and oneshot him ín a jump attack. something a group of azeroths most powerful adventurers was not able to do.

So Tyrion is also stronger than Illidan? Well, the guy who blew up the Primal Naaru and stopped Turalyon's blow with his bare hand?