is M+ and Tier Forge killing raid ?

[Relapses]

Me personally I would like to get back into raiding but the pugging scene is pretty much dead unless you have 4-5 hours to try to put together a run and clear it, while being so mercenary that you have to kick people left and right if they underperform. Raiding community is dead now unless you are in a raiding guild and those have become insular to the point that they might as well be playing a different game that the rest of the WoW community.

I will say this is the main reason I haven't bothered to find a new raiding guild since stepping down from raiding back in Nighthold. So many guilds have their own memes, cliques and whatever that just coming in as "the new guy" kind of feels like you're aggressively trying to shove a square peg into a round hole at times. There's no way to really know what a guild's comms are like prior to joining unless they have somebody who streams and even then most guilds strongly dislike new members being vocal about literally anything. I'd rather save the heartache and run a few chill M+s.

[Talon8669]

sup folks

I make this thread because i think, M+ and Tier Forge is slowing killing raid .

every day is harder and harder to get enough people to fill an stable raid group, and my theory is that the loot system is a big factor.

weekly +15 mythic vault loot with same ilvl than 20M mithyc raid
for real, anyone think a +15 is hard as 20M mithyc raid?
not just the content difficulty , think about recruiiting and coordinating 20 players good enough to have success.
now think how much effort do you need to complete, just complete a +15 key

now add the new feature , the tier forge where you can get tier from literally any item from M+... why in the hell people will make raid content?
its harder, longer, requiere more people, coordination, compromise, effortt and it reward is misserable

in my opinion, and read it like that, like this post.
-weekly mythic vault should reward with the higher Ilvl just if you have made at least 20+ mythic keys
-tier set its a Raid reward, always was it... if you want raid rewards, you should make raid. (players cant get trinkets form M+ without doing M+)

If this is true then it just shows that raiding is not fun; if raiding was fun people would continue to do it regardless of loot gains. But this game is only about getting those purples and then afking until new purples. It's like an addiction. People should play the game because the game is fun; I Don't believe that to currently be the case. If Blizzard can get back to making a fun game and more accessible end game content then more people would participate.

[Trumpcat]

It's not that they are killing raiding, but raiding itself does it by being stuck in an old design philosophy whereas the rest of the game moves forward. So raiding is a big logistical and managerial undertaking, possibly the biggest than any other game or genre. Nothing else requires the commitment to build and organize a team of so many people where different personalities, schedules and interests must align, who must be dedicated to the improvement of their characters and to their team, develop and hone skills and undertake sometimes incredibly difficult challenges. And for what? Yes, the excitement of beating a boss as a team is a strong thrill, but the game itself offers you worse or comparable rewards to what you can easily and much faster get from M+. At best the rewards can be marginally better in the cases of Mythic raids, but at a very disproportionate difficulty level.

I personally find that a great deal of the issue with raiding being too hard and unrewarding could be alleviated by adding raids to the Valor system so they would drop upgradeable items and Valor.
Edit: And by tuning down the difficulty. Shadowlands went significantly overboard with aiming to challenge the 100 best guilds in the world and completely overwhelming everyone else.

[Usagi Senshi]

It's not that they are killing raiding, but raiding itself does it by being stuck in an old design philosophy whereas the rest of the game moves forward. So raiding is a big logistical and managerial undertaking, possibly the biggest than any other game or genre. Nothing else requires the commitment to build and organize a team of so many people where different personalities, schedules and interests must align, who must be dedicated to the improvement of their characters and to their team, develop and hone skills and undertake sometimes incredibly difficult challenges. And for what? Yes, the excitement of beating a boss as a team is a strong thrill, but the game itself offers you worse or comparable rewards to what you can easily and much faster get from M+. At best the rewards can be marginally better in the cases of Mythic raids, but at a very disproportionate difficulty level.

I personally find that a great deal of the issue with raiding being too hard and unrewarding could be alleviated by adding raids to the Valor system so they would drop upgradeable items and Valor.

Yup, reason I stopped raiding in 2015 (and was really happy about M+ in Legion), first they dropped the 10-man HC route for me, I tried doing the 20-man mythic bullshit and the following three guilds broke apart so I stopped caring. Moved to FFXIV full time after that with WoW being the side bitch (still is, FFXIV is the casual paradise MMO I've always wanted).

With solo queue rated PVP coming in DF, I might dust off my warrior and DK and enjoy some more WoW on the side again. Do some M+ as well.

[agentsi]

If M+ didn't give rewards at or close to Heroic/Mythic raids, more people would raid. But most folks only care about how others perceive them. And if you can achieve a high IO score without ever having to raid, a player will do so.

Raiding requires more time, more skill ( in terms of gathering 20+ folks to be on the same page ), and more resources to do well. It should offer much higher IO drops. But the WoW player base cried the devs into submission so now Mythic has two sets of IO gear, for normal plebs like most of us, and the super hardcore players. And even still, you have people on this forum, as well as others, bitching and moaning that M+ doesn't give them more free loot.

Entitlement will be the end of MMOs I feel. And WoW's player base is filled with young, entitled idiots.

[munkeyinorbit]

Simple solution is to up the rewards from the vault. Heroic raids get mythic chances. Mythic raid gets super mythic chances.

Problem solved.

[Enter Name Here]

Simple solution is to up the rewards from the vault. Heroic raids get mythic chances. Mythic raid gets super mythic chances.

Problem solved.

+ remove loot lockouts from raids

[Relapses]

Simple solution is to up the rewards from the vault. Heroic raids get mythic chances. Mythic raid gets super mythic chances.

Problem solved.

That solves the issue of Heroic participation but probably at the cost of literally decimating any mediocre Mythic guild in existence since they'll opt to farm Heroic instead.

- - - Updated - - -

+ remove loot lockouts from raids

We don't need more incentives to boost shit in this game.

[paxen]

The problem is mostly limited to heroic raiding - it's almost stupid to gear a character there. If half your raid group loves raiding only and the other half likes to M+ as well, the latter players will outgear the former in a few weeks. And the raiders can't just "raid more", there's weekly lockouts.

By having mythic raid still provide loot, instead of just be for bragging rights and rating/benchmarks like high keys, they have inadvertently turned heroic raiding into the mode that's purely done for challenge, achievements and bragging rights (Curve). Just make have Mythic raids drop heroic loot and share a loot lockout with heroic raids, and have the best gear drop from both 15s and heroic raids.

Interested players will still push to clear mythic raids, just like they're pushing to run keys above 15 now, all the way up to 30+.

[Nynax]

I will say this is the main reason I haven't bothered to find a new raiding guild since stepping down from raiding back in Nighthold. So many guilds have their own memes, cliques and whatever that just coming in as "the new guy" kind of feels like you're aggressively trying to shove a square peg into a round hole at times. There's no way to really know what a guild's comms are like prior to joining unless they have somebody who streams and even then most guilds strongly dislike new members being vocal about literally anything. I'd rather save the heartache and run a few chill M+s.

I'd say that situation would be the same with just about any social group, online or offline. There's no way to know if you'll fit the vibe until you try the group out. Most guilds have a "trial" period for that reason, they won't really know if you're actually likable enough to play with either. Finding a guild you like and want to stay in has always taken effort, going all the way back to 2004, and there used to be so much more drama over loot and shit too.

[Relapses]

I'd say that situation would be the same with just about any social group, online or offline. There's no way to know if you'll fit the vibe until you try the group out. Most guilds have a "trial" period for that reason, they won't really know if you're actually likable enough to play with either. Finding a guild you like and want to stay in has always taken effort, going all the way back to 2004, and there used to be so much more drama over loot and shit too.

I think the main thing is that because raiding has become such a niche activity that raid groups have become insular to the point where the vibe is almost impossible to penetrate if you're not already familiar with somebody in the raid. It wasn't always as bad as it is now, at least from what I can remember. There was a point where I was raiding in 4 different guilds back in MoP and I couldn't even imagine doing something close to that in today's raid paradigm. But maybe it's a me thing. I've become old and crotchety... I'm a good decade older than most Mythic raiders these days so I'm sure that has a bit to do with it.

[Argorwal]

It’s pretty much killed casual guilds as +15s are easier than heroic raids and also give way better loot.

But I also think mythic+ is good and fun for the game and don’t want it to go away.

The reward to difficulty ratio though between raids and keys is just way too off.

[Peacemoon]

Mythic raiding is too hard and heroic raiding is too hard for the loot it gives. Everyone I know just goes for AotC as an accomplishment, you rarely do it for the loot anymore.

Mythic raiding is too Serious. for us to get into.

WoW would be a very shallow game again without M+. It’s great that dungeons stay relevant and it makes the game so much more fun.

[bmjclark]

An aging playerbase is killing raiding and blizzard is just trying to keep up by providing content for them. Every single person I know who used to raid in vanilla, burning crusade, wrath and even cata no longer have the time (or will) to dedicate out chunks of 3-4 hours 2-3 times a week. Raiding is also honestly boring (i say this as a former mythic raider) where as getting a group of 5 friends to play mythic+ together is actually fun.

[Ryzeth]

This question has been asked like every other week since M+ became a thing. The answer is still the same: No. If anything, it's made it more accessible.

[hulkgor]

doesn't involve hours on a scripted fight that may fail because a handful of people moved a little too slow or didn't respond to something exactly correctly.

You do realize M+ is also... scripted? The difference is between a 4-8m encounter and a 30m~~ scenario.

[Belloc]

for real, anyone think a +15 is hard as 20M mithyc raid?
not just the content difficulty , think about recruiiting and coordinating 20 players good enough to have success.

Yes, absolutely. Mythic raiding has always been at least half easy and half hard. If people can pug early mythic bosses for easy max-level loot, why shouldn't it be available in +15s?

Stop trying to gatekeep loot behind personal preferences. Raiding/Mythic+/PvP should all reward the same level loot at the various difficulty levels.

[jeezusisacasual]

I tend to think that people really just want to play with a smallish group of friends ( this is how the cliques form in guilds ) despite playing a MMO. Raiding also has this problem of being way to time consuming in that you have to dedicate chunks of time instead of 45 mins here and there over a week. The other thing is that getting 1 mythic raid level loot ( that is from the first part of the instance i-lvl wise ) takes you 3-4 times longer to get geared. Now the Heroic guilds are at a loss here but thats on them, if they just want to clear heroic then perhaps they should be told they are just not going to survive and they are just a stepping stone ( i thought people loved the stepping stone guilds of TBC ).

Fixing raiding would be a boon but if they trash M+ to do it then i can see WoW falling even faster, this was proven before when logistics ( while being a large part of the challenge ) get to a point that its just not worth it then perhaps changing the game for the best might mean that WoW raiding will be less Dark Souls and more Emerald Nightmare. Plus its good to play for a few weeks maybe a month or so and be done to move onto the thousands of other video games, which is what i did after getting KSM last week and have done every season in Shadowlands.

[SinR]

I'd say overtuning the raids is killing Raids

An example: how many guilds downed Jailer on their guild's difficulty that they run and never went back?

[Tziva]

I will preface this by saying that I do think the ilvl rewards between keystones and raiding needs some tweaking. I think raiding could either be made more rewarding in comparison (at least in regards to the vault), or m+ vault could be brought down slightly. Heroic and M+ should probably be parallel paths, rather than having one totally eclipse the other in terms of ilvl.

That said, despite the ilvl discrepancy, I don't think M+ is a "threat" to raiding. If people don't enjoy raiding at all for its own sake and were there exclusively for rewards, then it seems like a win that they can now have a progression path outside of that. I think that people who enjoy raiding, either for the challenge or the social component, will continue to do so, as long as raiding provides some character progression to justify the time spent; this is an MMO afterall. There are plenty of us who raid because we actually like raiding, even if we acknowledge most of our character progression actually comes from keystones. But raiding still can also provide supplemental gearing, or sometimes has good trinkets or weapons you can't get in keys anyway.

Better rewards can push people who don't have strong feelings one way or another into certain end game venues, but there is always going to be a core of people who do the content they enjoy because they enjoy it, so as long as that content can at least provide some character progression, they will continue to do it. There are also plenty of people who just flat out are not interested in certain types of content (whether that is pvp or dungeons or large raids) and aren't going to do it if they don't feel they have to.

I'd say overtuning the raids is killing Raids

An example: how many guilds downed Jailer on their guild's difficulty that they run and never went back?

I think the raids this expansion were overtuned on launch, and I think there were too many instagib or "one person fucks the raid" mechanics, but I don't know that the latter statement follows from that. Lots of raids don't farm end bosses, and I don't think it has to do with tuning.

I think delayed or low kill stats for end bosses is much more indicative of an issue than repeat kills, and I have no idea how this tier compared to prior raids or expansions in that respect.