Dragonflight Beta SPOILERS! Titan Lore Objects

[Cheezits]

If the Titans are not the Pantheon of Order, I wonder what is. Constellar-type beings? Arcane creatures like Aluneth?

[Nymrohd]

If the Titans are not the Pantheon of Order, I wonder what is. Constellar-type beings? Arcane creatures like Aluneth?

I'd rather it be a singular intelligence. Make every single creature there speak in one voice.

[Cheezits]

I'd rather it be a singular intelligence. Make every single creature there speak in one voice.

Something like the Worldmind in Marvel would work really well. Or that planet from Rick and Morty where one entity can hop between anyone living there.

I do think we're getting a gradual reveal that there is more to Constellars than "titan butlers". It was teased with Harbaron and then Rygelon was more overt.

[Nymrohd]

Something like the Worldmind in Marvel would work really well. Or that planet from Rick and Morty where one entity can hop between anyone living there.

I do think we're getting a gradual reveal that there is more to Constellars than "titan butlers". It was teased with Harbaron and then Rygelon was more overt.

Could be that Constellars were more early Titan midwives send by Order to bring them to Zereth Ordos and then stayed with them.

[qwerty123456]

Old lore:
Light and void clash with each other and the fusion of the two created everything. Titans fought the voids minions and helped shape Azeroth. Sargeras waged constant war against demons shit happened and he decided to unmake the universe and start it over himself.

New lore:
Super super gods who can see the future created a bunch of robot gods. They saw that 2(3 now if Titans are now First Ones creations) would become corrupt and wipe out billions of souls over the millennias and chose not to fix it/them instead making teleporters for the player character. The Jailer who originally had no powers of his own save for determining where souls go proceeds to nearly solo the rest of the Eternal Ones and then receives power boosts from the Primus and Odyn as well as supplies and mobs from Denathrius.

Sargeras was then tricked by fake demons who were actually from the Shadowlands and created by Denathrius into unmaking the mortal realm to feed the Jailer who Denathrius decided to team up with so that Denathrius could rule the Shadowlands even though he already created the perfect infiltrators and was capable of siphoning and storing Anima from other places on his own. The Jailer then turns out to be doing this because like the original Sargeras he saw an even bigger threat and decided to try and unite all of reality under him. The Old Gods now aren't totally evil either and it was a misinformation campaign by Odyn even though all we see of them is being evil dicks.

So now the only truly evil person now is Denathrius who wanted to fully control the shadowlands for some reason and everyone else is misguided.

[Aucald]

We visit the Shadowlands in the Forsaken Council questline and that should be AFTER Zovaal died. It could be that the rift slowly healed itself over the time skip ofc but otherwise the ability to visit the Shadowlands pretty much at will seems canon.

That was the same thing that happened with AU Draenor - once the main rift (in this case the AU Dark Portal) was shut down, transit across the two dimensions became more and more difficult, until it eventually became impossible without the aid of the Bronze flight in the Mag'har recruitment scenario, and even that was only a temporary portal which closed shortly afterward. The Shadowlands, with the closure of the Icecrown rift, will likely follow suit - access will become more and more difficult as the proverbial skin between realms heals, eventually making access to the Shadowlands impossible without major effort. It wouldn't happen immediately, but probably as of the time-skip in Dragonflight the Shadowlands will once more be sealed off.

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True but the point is that everything we've been shown points towards getting to this not being terribly difficult. Sargeras dedicated himself to an impossible task when he was aware of a much more efficient system that he seemingly ignored.

It wasn't an impossible task given that Sargeras had gotten down to the last of the Titans (Azeroth herself), with the rest of the Titans being his captives in Antorus. All he really needed was time, and given his nature as an immortal Titan as well as a loyal army of demons at his disposal, he had more than enough of that. Sargeras was close to victory in terms of his own goals - we just managed to eventually put a hard check on his advances and, incredibly, engineer his own capture at the Seat of the Pantheon. As for the "much more efficient system," as I said previously, it likely wasn't an avenue that was open to him. Either because Titans can't re-enter the plane of Order willy-nilly, or the greater forces or Order sensed his Fel corruption and barred his path successfully.

[Nymrohd]

It wasn't an impossible task given that Sargeras had gotten down to the last of the Titans (Azeroth herself), with the rest of the Titans being his captives in Antorus. All he really needed was time, and given his nature as an immortal Titan as well as a loyal army of demons at his disposal, he had more than enough of that. Sargeras was close to victory in terms of his own goals - we just managed to eventually put a hard check on his advances and, incredibly, engineer his own capture at the Seat of the Pantheon. As for the "much more efficient system," as I said previously, it likely wasn't an avenue that was open to him. Either because Titans can't re-enter the plane of Order willy-nilly, or the greater forces or Order sensed his Fel corruption and barred his path successfully.

I'll disagree. Time was Sargeras' greatest enemy. At any moment in the near infinite physical realm that he clearly had trouble traversing in good speed a world soul could transform into a Void Titan with him none the wiser.

[Aucald]

I'll disagree. Time was Sargeras' greatest enemy. At any moment in the near infinite physical realm that he clearly had trouble traversing in good speed a world soul could transform into a Void Titan with him none the wiser.

Except it didn't happen, save for the one incident that ignited Sargeras' fears to begin with, which was likely Telogrus. Sargeras appears to have been successful in hunting down all known Titans and/or eliminating any nascent ones during the Burning Crusade, evidenced by the fact that Azeroth was the last of the slumbering Titans, and Sargeras was fully aware of her existence and had tried multiple times already to put her to the flame and/or recruit her to his cause.

[Combatbutler]

Except it didn't happen, save for the one incident that ignited Sargeras' fears to begin with, which was likely Telogrus. Sargeras appears to have been successful in hunting down all known Titans and/or eliminating any nascent ones during the Burning Crusade, evidenced by the fact that Azeroth was the last of the slumbering Titans, and Sargeras was fully aware of her existence and had tried multiple times already to put her to the flame and/or recruit her to his cause.

Which is rather nonsensical, Azeroth was so far out travelling there by conventional means was out of the question, the titans themselves only discovered a fraction of the universe, so how should Sargeras suddenly be able to survey pretty much the entire universe.

[Cheezits]

Theory: If Azeroth (A Zereth?) is connected to Zereth Ordos, it would be another reason Sargeras wanted her so badly. Maybe she can open it up?

[Aucald]

Which is rather nonsensical, Azeroth was so far out travelling there by conventional means was out of the question, the titans themselves only discovered a fraction of the universe, so how should Sargeras suddenly be able to survey pretty much the entire universe.

Using his Legion. The demons seemed to have no real issues appearing wherever Arcane magic surfaced (which just so happened to often coincide with worlds housing Titanic World-Souls suffused with the Arcane), doing what demons do best and eventually leading to world-ending cataclysms. Sargeras didn't need to travel to worlds himself physically, more often than not. They weren't as quick as Sargeras when it came to destroying worlds, but they could accomplish the job nonetheless. He did so with Azeroth because it was a special case in his eyes, and even then his last act was an attempt to skewer the world with Gorribal before being trapped.

Sargeras also had a lot more time than the Titans did to map out the physical universe, and again, had a huge army of dimension-hopping demons to assist. We know he was active for at least 30,000+ years more than the Titans, and an unknown amount of time before that and the deaths of the Pantheon at Nihilam.

[Combatbutler]

Using his Legion. The demons seemed to have no real issues appearing wherever Arcane magic surfaced (which just so happened to often coincide with worlds housing Titanic World-Souls suffused with the Arcane), doing what demons do best and eventually leading to world-ending cataclysms. Sargeras didn't need to travel to worlds himself physically, more often than not. They weren't as quick as Sargeras when it came to destroying worlds, but they could accomplish the job nonetheless. He did so with Azeroth because it was a special case in his eyes, and even then his last act was an attempt to skewer the world with Gorribal before being trapped.

Sargeras also had a lot more time than the Titans did to map out the physical universe, and again, had a huge army of dimension-hopping demons to assist. We know he was active for at least 30,000+ years more than the Titans, and an unknown amount of time before that and the deaths of the Pantheon at Nihilam.

Yet it usually took quite a bit of arcane usage for the legion to find worlds to begin with, even with their scouts all around the cosmos, there were blind spots pretty much everywhere far away from the legion core territories, heck the night elves used the well of eternity for thousands of years, before the legion picked up their trail and that was an exceedingly powerful arcane source. The trolls went entirely unnoticed, so were the blue dragons, so that sets the threshold of detection quite high.

Even if you have billions of scouts manually searching in every direction for millions of years, you will only have scratched the surface. Space is unbelievably vast, cleansing more than an entire galaxy in 25.000 years is already unrealistic, due to their sheer size.

[Aucald]

Yet it usually took quite a bit of arcane usage for the legion to find worlds to begin with, even with their scouts all around the cosmos, there were blind spots pretty much everywhere far away from the legion core territories, heck the night elves used the well of eternity for thousands of years, before the legion picked up their trail and that was an exceedingly powerful arcane source. The trolls went entirely unnoticed, so were the blue dragons, so that sets the threshold of detection quite high.

Even if you have billions of scouts manually searching in every direction for millions of years, you will only have scratched the surface. Space is unbelievably vast, cleansing more than an entire galaxy in 25.000 years is already unrealistic, due to their sheer size.

You're assuming the scale of the Warcraft universe is the same as ours, which isn't in evidence for the Great Dark Beyond. It's vast, sure; but perhaps more than mappable for a god-like being with a vast army of spotters at their beck and call over 30,000+ years. It's also very likely that the Titan machinery present in Azeroth helped obscure the earlier civilizations' magic use for a time, it wasn't until Azshara and her Highborne began fiddling with the Well of Eternity itself that they finally created a signal big enough to finally breach this protection and draw the Legion to Azeroth during the War of the Ancients. The Blue Dragons specifically would've flown under the radar by design, being charged with actually safeguarding Azeroth's magic from threats exactly like the Legion.

[Rhlor]

All Images Credited to Laytis who actually took the screens, and thanks to Ethenil for posting them on Scrolls of Lore Discord.

Overall it looks like Blizz is trying to soften the stance it had on lore from Shadowlands but still proceed along the same path... and it's not WORKING, you can't make the Black Empire not evil and have that be just 'the titans pov/propaganda'. It's also weird that Tyr would be onboard with brainwashing, and it's unclear why they'd really need to brainwash the dragons since the aspects fought Galakrond pretty much on their own and were already leaning towards being willing to help.

It always seemed to me that all cosmic forces have good and bad things

Mod Edit: Don't quote a series of a large images for a one-sentence reply.

[Nymrohd]

It always seemed to me that all cosmic forces have good and bad things

Did you seriously quote a post filled with images just for one line?

[bloodmoth13]

Chronicle's very explicit that world souls are nascent Titans, which are inherently arcane. Since the Titans existed before then and their skillsets this lead to most of them not having an arcane skillset. Arcane even being associated with order is a Chronicle retcon. So you have a whole lot of their skillset which is completely divorced from both the pre and post-Chronicle versions of Arcane. In terms of backtracking to world souls being agnostic of the powers, I can see it happening, though I don't see much sign of it in what @Combatbulter sent, and it'd gel with the Shadowlands writing style of tying yourself in needless knots to get to a point that's easily achievable without such changes.

Case in point, you have all material for this already in-game and the world souls being born wrecking the planet as we never do see any of the Titans' origin worlds or implied they exist after they're destroyed gives you an easy in. Them ordering the world away from its original design and placing mechanism to casually glass the surface when necessary have been points for ages, as is them having originally meant to place automatons. The whole thing'd work much better if we didn't see the kindly granddad and inexplicably alive titans in Legion, but what can you do.

@BaumanKing

Top notch satire.

Chronicles is titan point of view (which seems kind of like proactive retconning but I think it opens up the story a lot and allows explanation of past events with room to explore). Not sure about them being inherently arcane, azerite was just raw power and the energies of the moon well/sunwell have been used for holy, death, arcane, fel, shadow and life. The moonwell energy is used to power all magical sources which I think kind of proves that it is flexible and can apply to every faction. What matters is who wields it. Titans claim it as arcane and justify expelling all other forces in order for it to be monopolized by them. They aren't evil in that sense they are pragmatic, but there would definitely be scenarios where they did evil things to keep it for themselves.
I think they could do a bunch of stratholme like scenarios with this narrative, which is still morally grey ends justify means stuff.

Demon's being ravenously attracted to 'arcane' (or perhaps just world souls) could be explained as them being starved by order and being forced into ravenous wicked entities that, much like the blood elves, needed to feed on other powers to survive. There is no titan tier demon as far as we know, just sargeras who was 'order', maybe that is what they needed, and maybe after been fed they could calm down. Perhaps their evilness is all about self preservation.

There are angles that could be quite intriguing where titans weren't necessarily evil but the effects of their actions caused far reaching consequences and they necessitated their own problems. Perhaps the other powers deserved what was handed to them. At any rate it's fun to speculate.

[SovietBabeyyy]

Essentially, yes - which gives the whole context a nice dualism. The best thing the Void could do to upset the order the Titans envisioned was to scare one of their number so badly that he eventually broke with their order and became an agent of chaos himself.

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Our presence in Death wasn't natural nor an intended outcome, as was pretty heavily established beforehand. The Dreadlords were born in Death, so they definitely belong there. The nature gods were dead, and part of their natural process is to go to Ardenweald to be recycled back into the universe. The Titans, in this context, are more meant to be extrusions of Order in the physical universe and intended to shape it to better match the vision of Order. They return to Zereth Ordos when they die, perhaps, but not beforehand.

You said Nozdormus fate, and the main timeline are predestination.

That would mean that our presence in „death“is an intended outcome, it’s one main timeline and all fixed than

[Soeroah]

Personally I think some people are reading too much into new lore because they are jaded from the recent direction the story took. I can fully understand not enjoying the new direction, or even thinking it's poorer storytelling than in the past, but as far as I'm concerned everything in the last few expansions aside from things like Sylvanas' sudden villain-jerk is just normal Warcraft business. The storytelling has had its extreme ups and downs with no real consistency, and the plots have been controversial, but the overall quality isn't that much lower.

No one ever accused Metzen of 'hating Warcraft' when he *forgot how Sargeras turned evil*, and while there were some people at the time who hated the Scooby-Dooing of Arthas as the Lich King back in Wrath modern players act like Wrath was flawless and substantially better than the Jailer essentially doing the same thing. The primary thing that has changed are player's perception of the lore's quality and their approach to consuming it. Retcons have always been a core part of the Warcraft franchise, good or bad, and people are just much less forgiving about them nowadays.

[SovietBabeyyy]

Personally I think some people are reading too much into new lore because they are jaded from the recent direction the story took. I can fully understand not enjoying the new direction, or even thinking it's poorer storytelling than in the past, but as far as I'm concerned everything in the last few expansions aside from things like Sylvanas' sudden villain-jerk is just normal Warcraft business. The storytelling has had its extreme ups and downs with no real consistency, and the plots have been controversial, but the overall quality isn't that much lower.

No one ever accused Metzen of 'hating Warcraft' when he *forgot how Sargeras turned evil*, and while there were some people at the time who hated the Scooby-Dooing of Arthas as the Lich King back in Wrath modern players act like Wrath was flawless and substantially better than the Jailer essentially doing the same thing. The primary thing that has changed are player's perception of the lore's quality and their approach to consuming it. Retcons have always been a core part of the Warcraft franchise, good or bad, and people are just much less forgiving about them nowadays.

Very bad post.

[Soeroah]

Very bad post.

That works, this is a thread full of bad takes.