How is Dragonflight solving shortage of tanks and healers problem?

[Tiev]

Honestly, if you aren't pushing high keys, the timer is barely ever a big deal. In casual level keys, if most of the group has a reasonable idea of what they're doing, you keep moving, and you don't wipe too much, you're gonna make the timer without trying. You don't even have to make crazy massive pulls or anything. And even then, a lot of people don't care. Plenty of people just want to get a completion in for their vault.

It's a HUGE psychological deal. It could be 30 minutes in a 10 minute dungeon, but if it's there, it already starts ticking in your head and your mentality shifts from enjoyment to rushing.

[czarek]

I've been a long time WoW player until about 1.5 years ago. How does the new expansion, Dragonflight, solve the shortage of tanks and healers problems?

Also I know Mythic+ is a popular feature, but I absolutely hate it because it's so difficult to get tanks for a group. Is Mythic+ in DF the same as before? This also leads to the issue of tanks and healers shortage.

Didnt notice getting tank or a healer to a group to be that hard. Sometimes you need just wait a bit but not often and long. Actually i play as DPS but was hard tanking on the past and healer at the S1/S2 SL. Done all KSM as nonguilded casual. I dont see this as big problem.

[Kirbydude65]

Did you know that it’s possible to have two different problems at the same time? Here are the two problems:

1. More people like to play dps than tank.
2. Raiding requires a different ratio of tanks to dps than dungeons.

Neither of my posts has addressed the first problem, and I agree that my solution doesn’t solve it. Both of my posts have been about the second of these two problems, and it would solve that problem.

Another popular MMORPG, FF14 has exact ratios for group compositions. A party is made up of a Tank, 2 DPS, and a healer. A Full group (Raid Group) is 2 Tanks, 4 DPS, and 2 Healers.

Guess what? They still have a tank problem because people don't want to tank.

[jeezusisacasual]

Very few people care about "being better gamers". They care about having fun. These are games, not jobs.

Everything is give and take, i have expectations regarding my own personal ability and work to improve it. Some say my own job is stressful but i enjoy the pressure that these situations present me and why i would still be raiding mythic if it was not locked to a set time every week, its why people go to high League ranks or SC2 or a high ELO in various fighting games. I would hope you would not assume i am toxic to players because i am not at all they are there helping me get my goals accomplished that is it, think of it like when you join a random group in LoL or Fortnite.

[AlmightyGerkin]

Can't solve the shortage of tanks or healers. And this idea that there is a solution is absurd. Tanks and healers are under constant strain whether it being in M+ or raids. M+ i find more so than raids. If the tank isn't pulling fast enough or going their route they get flamed upon. And healers for trying to correct others stupidity like dps for not doing the bare minimum of interrupting a mob that will eat away 40% (just an estimate) while they're at 15% health or a myriad of other things. Maybe if people were less toxic assholes then it could possibly be a way for people to continue tanking or healing.

[Relapses]

Not sure why you keep bringing "number of specs" into this argument, it's not really relevant.

It is when the argument for "solving" this problem involves doing either of the things I mentioned.

[NineSpine]

The fundamental design approach of the game having fewer tanks specs than healers and fewer healers than DPS hasn't been upended. I don't know why you keep insisting that it has.

When did I say to increase the number of tank or healer specs?

[Gestopft]

It's a HUGE psychological deal. It could be 30 minutes in a 10 minute dungeon, but if it's there, it already starts ticking in your head and your mentality shifts from enjoyment to rushing.

I suppose it sort of felt that way when I started doing keys- but it didn't take long until I was basically ignoring the timer if the key was below +15.

Perhaps to put my point in a different way for people that psych themselves out over the timer: in my experience, most groups (again, not pushing high keys) don't play the dungeon all that much differently than a group doing an un-timed dungeon. Heck, a lot of the time it's less hectic because you don't have an overgeared tank trying to pull half the dungeon or something (and DPS are a lot less likely to be off pulling extra mobs themselves). Sure, there are places some groups might make big pulls, and you generally get into the habit of starting to move towards the next set of mobs, and it's generally expected that unless you have something to communicate, the next pack is getting pulled quickly- but people have been complaining about "gogogo" dungeon runs since at least Wrath.

- - - Updated - - -

Can't solve the shortage of tanks or healers. And this idea that there is a solution is absurd. Tanks and healers are under constant strain whether it being in M+ or raids. M+ i find more so than raids. If the tank isn't pulling fast enough or going their route they get flamed upon. And healers for trying to correct others stupidity like dps for not doing the bare minimum of interrupting a mob that will eat away 40% (just an estimate) while they're at 15% health or a myriad of other things. Maybe if people were less toxic assholes then it could possibly be a way for people to continue tanking or healing.

Tbh, I find a lot more toxicity in Heroic/Mythic dungeons than I do in M+- at least in the gear progression range- not pushing high keys where speed and route are much more critical.

[Relapses]

When did I say to increase the number of tank or healer specs?

...sigh. This shit again. Let's back this up, shall we?

My argument from the beginning is that this "problem" is inherent to the DNA of the game itself. (Problem in quotations because it's not a problem.) It's so integral to the game's DNA that there's no real solution (outside of incentivizing the roles) which doesn't ultimately stop making the game what it is. And it's unfair to put the onus on the devs of DF in particular to "solve" an issue that has no solution.

[lllll]

Tbh, I find a lot more toxicity in Heroic/Mythic dungeons than I do in M+- at least in the gear progression range- not pushing high keys where speed and route are much more critical.

Having healed up to +25, there's barely any toxicity when pushing keys either unless you count people not wanting to continue when it's clear it won't be in time and thus no score, as toxicity.

[NineSpine]

...sigh. This shit again. Let's back this up, shall we?

My argument from the beginning is that this "problem" is inherent to the DNA of the game itself. (Problem in quotations because it's not a problem.) It's so integral to the game's DNA that there's no real solution (outside of incentivizing the roles) which doesn't ultimately stop making the game what it is. And it's unfair to put the onus on the devs of DF in particular to "solve" an issue that has no solution.

Nobody is misunderstanding you. It's the same game you always play over and over and over again:

1. You declare the problem infeasible to be solved by solutions A, B, and C.
2. Someone says "What about D, E, or F?"
3. You say "I already dispensed with the notion that this problem can be solved when I refuted A, B, and C!"

I didn't say that we should change the number of tank or healers specs, but your only refutation to anything I say is refuting solutions I never proposed. It's like I proposed ibuprofen to take down a fever and you said "I already explained how rubbing shit on your face won't fix the fever, so there is no reason for me to consider your solution!" It doesn't follow, and it is a really obnoxious, condescending, grating, and unconstructive game that you never seem to tire of playing.

[Relapses]

Nobody is misunderstanding you. It's the same game you always play over and over and over again:

1. You declare the problem infeasible to be solved by solutions A, B, and C.
2. Someone says "What about D, E, or F?"
3. You say "I already dispensed with the notion that this problem can be solved when I refuted A, B, and C!"

I didn't say that we should change the number of tank or healers specs, but your only refutation to anything I say is refuting solutions I never proposed. It's like I proposed ibuprofen to take down a fever and you said "I already explained how rubbing shit on your face won't fix the fever, so there is no reason for me to consider your solution!" It doesn't follow, and it is a really obnoxious, condescending, grating, and unconstructive game that you never seem to tire of playing.

There is no D, E, or F solution. There is no A, B, or C solution either. There is no solution to this problem. It is unsolvable which is precisely what I said in the original comment which started this entire exchange.

[plz delete account]

This is the equivalent of complaining about having to jungle in a MOBA and the proposed solution being "remove the jungle." At some point certain aspects of the games' design have to be understood as part of its structure.

HOTS doesn't have jungling and it's a blast to play.

[Relapses]

HOTS doesn't have jungling and it's a blast to play.

It was also, notably, shut down in development because it couldn't hold a candle to either League or DoTA. (Both of which currently have world competitive events which are averaging hundreds of thousands of viewers at the moment.)

[plz delete account]

It was also, notably, shut down in development because it couldn't hold a candle to either League or DoTA. (Both of which currently have world competitive events which are averaging hundreds of thousands of viewers at the moment.)

almost like you lose players when you stop releasing updates just as it begins to hit acceptance, and then put it into maintenance mode two years later

[Relapses]

almost like you lose players when you stop releasing updates just as it begins to hit acceptance, and then put it into maintenance mode two years later

HotS never reached acceptance. The very thing you claim made it "a blast" was part of the reason it failed. The focus on making a MOBA that was accessible made the competitive viewing experience dull as fuck. HotS always felt like "Baby's First MOBA" with many of the genre's staples like last hitting being removed, build paths largely being completely irrelevant, removing a lot of the PvE elements (ie, the jungle as you said) and (worst of all) the inability to carry a game due to shared experience. The game did have some small facets of skill expression (probably more than in something like WoW) but the dumbed-down technical aspects made the game far, far less interesting in competitive play.

[plz delete account]

HotS never reached acceptance. The very thing you claim made it "a blast" was part of the reason it failed.

How to tell Relapses doesn't actually read your posts and just skims 101

[Relapses]

How to tell Relapses doesn't actually read your posts and just skims 101

Bro, the game had nearly a decade to find its footing and it never did. It's plain dishonest to imply otherwise.

[NineSpine]

There is no D, E, or F solution. There is no A, B, or C solution either. There is no solution to this problem. It is unsolvable which is precisely what I said in the original comment which started this entire exchange.

"I already disregarded solutions A, B, and C, none of which you actually proposed, so now I can pretend no other solutions exist!"

And round and round and round we go, the game never ends. Even now, instead of discussing potential solutions, we are having the usual meta-conversation you love to have instead.

[Srbrute]

it doesnt, bcs it cant...that is 100% player driven problem



then play a tank/healer yourself...
you dont want to? well neither does shitloads of people, hence the shortage, its not a game issue its people issue...

Whether or not you meant it to, this comes across as incredibly toxic. People don’t “want” to play those roles because of a combination of game issues (not fun/interesting) and people issues (toxic behavior etc). Role a tank and go into a mythic+ not having spent time researching the routes and mechanics. The reaction is generally not helpful, and why does the game require so much research in the first place.