Do you think Sylvanas was a good character for "female empowerment"?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Sorry to break it to you but the writer is a woman, Christie Golden. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christie_Golden

The bulk of sylvanas’s problems come from ingame which golden doesn’t write and even the major plot points of the books come from the game team and golden or other writers just fill in the gaps.

[loras]

She absolutely wasnt. She was used as a battering ram to completely finish of more “women oriented” race in Alliance, acted as an unstable psycho and was propped by the simp who used his self insert to roleplay essentially.

All the “icon of feminism” talk was either product of entire tone deafness or actually used to make feminists look extra bad via association.

This.
Attaching feminism to the Sylvanas debacle just serves to undermine both.

I mean if anything she showed the evil inherent to certain forms of hysteria and derangement, regardless of the excuses and explanations given.

[Aucald]

Not being female, I can't really speak to any empowerment the average woman may or may not feel. I will say I'm not sure how or why anyone would feel empowered by Sylvanas, given the givens - maybe her earliest incarnation where she overcame the Lich King's domination and forged her own nation, but even that legacy was somewhat tainted well before her later actions cemented her as a complete monster.

[Lazerbrain]

The bulk of sylvanas’s problems come from ingame which golden doesn’t write and even the major plot points of the books come from the game team and golden or other writers just fill in the gaps.

And you think there are no female writers on the ingame narrative team?

also my point is that women and men can both write bad characters. I did not mean to hang just christie out but pointing to one of the more famous sylvanas writers being female. There are plenty of women in blizzards writing team on all levels.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And you think there are no female writers on the ingame narrative team?

also my point is that women and men can both write bad characters. I did not mean to hang just christie out but pointing to one of the more famous sylvanas writers being female. There are plenty of women in blizzards writing team on all levels.

I have no clue what the ingame writing teams break up is, nor was it my point that her writing hasn’t been touched by a woman.

All I’m saying is that book writers like golden or others aren’t the reason sylvanas is the way she is they just fill in the gaps of what the game team comes up with.

[CrittenMitten]

She's been a slave all her unlife. How's that "empowerment?"

She "broke" free from Arthas' control and rebelled against Jay the Jailer last second? lol

[BreakerOfWills]

"good character" as in interesting to follow and learn more about are not required to be good people. Trying to slap external labels on her like "female empowerment" is setting up a weird judgment.

Is she interesting yes or no.

[Lazerbrain]

I have no clue what the ingame writing teams break up is, nor was it my point that her writing hasn’t been touched by a woman.

All I’m saying is that book writers like golden or others aren’t the reason sylvanas is the way she is they just fill in the gaps of what the game team comes up with.

Ok fair but I was replying to;

Sylvanas is a good example of a man writing a woman.

My point is still valid, book writer or not, sylvanas is not bad because a man is writing her. She is the result of a group effort.

[Linkedblade]

Sylvanas was, and perhaps still is, one of the most popular characters in the franchise, and this is a serious question. I've noticed in the past on the official forums and Reddit, that LOTS of active players, especially younger female players, seem to always defend and admire her, even after the Burning of Teldrassil.

Their reasoning was that she was a deeply traumatized female who was able to overcome and harden herself through her trials and become a strong individual with very great force of will - that she was able to assert her agency as a female character and leader, a hunter and a banshee, an undead elf and an iconic Horde character. She was extremely beautiful and deadly and graceful, and yet she had her nuanced moments, such as her famous Lament of the Highborne scene, a very complex and relatable character to lots of young women and female gamers who admired her in equal parts for her tenacity and ruthlessness.

Even Patty herself stated in the past that she faced significant domestic abuse when she was a young girl, and she channels some of her inner pain and anguish into her voice acting, which is perhaps what makes it so realistically engaging and potent for so many people.

Of course, those against that perspective would be that Sylvanas was a strong female character, but one who started Azeroth's fourth global war and committed what most Alliance and night elf players at least consider genocide. Although - she has been "redeemed" somewhat, and is now relatively "whole" and complete, and feels remorse for her actions - I recommend her novel to those who did not read it, it was not perfect, but much better than many other books today.
https://www.amazon.com/Sylvanas-Worl.../dp/B08ZXZDNVS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxWw-6Ipyuc

No, it's not good for female empowerment. It's one thing to be strong and independent. It's another to be a genocidal maniac. And yet that seems to be the most popular thing when it comes to Blizzard's characters. Sylvanas and Sarah Kerrigan, practically the same story.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Personally I think it's kinda patronizing to look at stuff this way in general. Characters are interesting or they aren't.

Especially when gender was never a part of her character. She could have easily been a man. We never (that I recall, I could be totally wrong since I don't read quests) see her face any specific issues based on sex, she doesn't have kids, etc.

[mysticx]

Not really, not because the lore was bad (It was, but that's beside the point), but because she was basically a pawn for one powerful male character or another for (As it turns out) pretty much all the time.

And any claims to cleverness or the oft-quoted "Tactical genius" are pretty thoroughly invalidated by the fact that for any of her plans to work, the other characters had to be dumbed down to quite ridiculous levels. ("Ooh, we're attacking Undercity, AKA Plague central, let's just march right on in, what can go wrong?" "Oh noes! Plague! Who could have seen *this* coming!?")

[Mustardisbad]

I thought she was a strong leader (although a bit crazy) up until they revealed she was just a side piece doing the bidding of the man, Zovaal. Definitely wouldn't look at her as a good role model for female empowerment after that.

I recently did all the quests in the WoD zones and would consider Yrel a much better role model for "female empowerment". She overcame her fears and rose to lead her people. Too bad blizz ruined her by making her go crazy with the light. (seen from the Mag'har orc allied race questline)

Then there is tyrande who could have been a good role model, and then blizzard made her go crazy on a quest for revenge, which was understandable because of what happened to her. But blizzard seems to enjoy making women go nuts. (also same thing happened to Jaina lol)

[Dastreus]

She used to be.

[Al Gorefiend]

In Legion and BfA yes. In Shadowlands not at all, she's another puppet to yet another fuckboy.

[tehdef]

LMAO, way to present Sylvanas as a character that was meant to be "female empowerment."

Incel as hell in some of these thought patterns.

Female. Female. Female. So tired of this language.

[VladlTutushkin]

Personally I think it's kinda patronizing to look at stuff this way in general. Characters are interesting or they aren't.

Especially when gender was never a part of her character. She could have easily been a man. We never (that I recall, I could be totally wrong since I don't read quests) see her face any specific issues based on sex, she doesn't have kids, etc.

If she was a man, she would end up dead.

[Zalraki]

The whole storyline was a train wreck so it was definitely representative of female empowerment

[Terahertz]

Dunno. All I know is that she became an obnoxious character at some point and that in combination with the spotlight she had throughout the last 3 expansions, it became really tiring. I'd say she definitely confirmed some people's biases, though. Whether good or bad.

[OwenBurton]

She absolutely wasnt. She was used as a battering ram to completely finish of more “women oriented” race in Alliance, acted as an unstable psycho and was propped by the simp who used his self insert to roleplay essentially.

All the “icon of feminism” talk was either product of entire tone deafness or actually used to make feminists look extra bad via association.

This.
Attaching feminism to the Sylvanas debacle just serves to undermine both.

I mean if anything she showed the evil inherent to certain forms of hysteria and derangement, regardless of the excuses and explanations given.

The thing is that Blizzard seems to (consciously or not) conflate anger and sometimes troubled mental / emotional stability with "strong female development".

For example, Jaina Proudmoore after Bombing of Theramore, her drastic character change (I think even Blizzard called her "crazy" on that in-game item before quickly removing it). Or Maiev. Or Sky Admiral Rogers. Or Tess Greymane. Or Alleria post-W2, and later Vereesa after her husband's death. And then of course, the enraged Tyrande who called the Horde a rabid wolf and who basically threatened Thrall to his face, before trying to choke Sylvanas.

I'm not saying an angry and bitter woman seeking vengeance at all costs can NEVER be a good "strong woman" portrayal, but it is at the very least oversimplistic, and seems to almost conflate wild anger issues and borderline instability with true strength, which usually involves much greater discipline and nuance, regardless of the gender and background of said character. Being constantly at the mercy of your most negative and corrosive emotions does not always a strong individual make. For example, Jaina was not particularly well-liked after her abrupt character shift, I'm afraid, but her storyline in Battle for Azeroth was much more favorably received.

[The Stormbringer]

Perhaps at the start in WC3 before she died, sure. She was a cunning and dangerous foe, a woman in a position of power that fought tooth and nail to slow and try to stop an implacable foe. While she ultimately failed, her efforts did save a number of her people.

After that though... well, she was basically a slave on and off for the rest of her existence. Right now she's an exile, doing community service for crimes she committed while under the influence (let's not kid ourselves, being undead is basically a mind and emotion altering state). Not really an amazing story of empowerment.