Chaos Pantheon

[darkoms]

Short version?
Because they don't think that far ahead and their first ones stuff does not exceed the level of mediocre fanfiction.

Longer version could be that the twisting nether we're familiar with is more of a chaos-dominated astral plane and the "real" twisting nether lies a lot "deeper".

As to their lords: Lords are a concept of order, anathema to chaos. Them having a pantheon at all would be illogical. It's demons from top to bottom, no hierarchy (which might explain their relatively fiersome "basic" power level, spread and numbers; their "pantheon"'s power is divided among them all).

I hate it so much when people say that having a Pantheon is illogical for Chaos because it's Chaos. Have you ever heard of Warhammer 40k and Chaos Gods? Nothing prevents the existence of the Chaos Pantheon, which will fight each other for power and have little interest in other forces (which would explain why they did not interfere with Sargeras). By your logic, it doesn't make sense that even before Sargeras, the pit lords commanded their own armies because that's ORDER and HIERARCHY.

[Shadowferal]

I hate it so much when people say that having a Pantheon is illogical for Chaos because it's Chaos. Have you ever heard of Warhammer 40k and Chaos Gods?

Still makes little sense.

[Houle]

Still makes little sense.

I think it would make sense for beings of Disorder to exist that WOULD be its pantheon, if they would work together. Like, every force has them, but Disorder is the special case where they arent working together at all, and where they have no real purpose.
That would make it consistent with every other force having one, and at the same time consistent with Disorders nature. They exist, but they dont work together or have armies working for them. They would just be the (by far) most powerful ones of the millions of demons running around doing their own thing. Which could also explain why they didnt try to interfere with the Legion: its just in their nature not to care. What would chaotic than just running around, doing their own random stuff, not caring about anything else.

[Shadowferal]

I think it would make sense for beings of Disorder to exist that WOULD be its pantheon, if they would work together. Like, every force has them, but Disorder is the special case where they arent working together at all, and where they have no real purpose. That would make it consistent with every other force having one, and at the same time consistent with Disorders nature. They exist, but they dont work together or have armies working for them. They would just be the (by far) most powerful ones of the millions of demons running around doing their own thing. Which could also explain why they didnt try to interfere with the Legion: its just in their nature not to care. What would chaotic than just running around, doing their own random stuff, not caring about anything else.

That would make sense...to me/us. Any act that would either benefit or not would be an accident...

[bsgbsm]

There is a singular, minor, reference in Legion to the existence of demons that are too powerful and too dangerous that even the Legion dares not summon them. This could retroactively be taken as a hint to some higher tier of demons that make up part of the "Fel Pantheon". Though this is exceptionally weak evidence outside of retroactively trying to fit in a fel pantheon.

I HATE the homogenization of the cosmic forces with a passion. So if I had my way, there would flat out not be a Fel Pantheon at all. Emphasize Fel is the most powerful magic in terms of raw power and destruction, but the disorder of the Nether and Demons essentially keep it in check from dominating other forces - and this is what made the Legion so dangerous because it was Sargeras imposing order on this disadvantage and why the Legion steamrolled the Titans and basically every other force that opposed it.

[Cheezits]

Regardless, it's still odd to me that the Titans wouldn't mention them in the Chronicle, if they did exist however. Was probably either wiped out from the data tracks, or was simply not archived VIA the PoV of Order simply not caring about the need to mention those beings.

This was confirmed by the books in Uldaman. Odyn orders the First One mentions to be removed to put more focus on/deify the Titans further.

As for why the First Ones are seen by a lot of people as Order, it's because they have a lot of thematic ties to the Titans. Both make their creations as robots, both are obsessed with ordering the universe, and they have similarities in their architecture. They clearly aren't the Titans themselves but they could be their direct ancestors. Or maybe the Titans are their reincarnations?

[rhorle]

The First Ones are the Progenitors of the ENTIRE WoW Cosmology, and the Cosmic Pantheons were made to embody their influences. So...yes, the Titans would be children of the First Ones. But so are the Void Lords, the Eternal Ones, Elune, etc.

Not necessarily. The First Ones just set up things in the Universe but nothing so far says they are the source of all the beings aligned with a cosmic force. Titans, Light-things, etc could have existed before the First Ones did whatever they did to create the current boundaries. Firim hints at other things as well as a seventh cosmic force. He even wonders if the First Ones still sing the "song". Even later he wonders if the First Ones meant for their design to end at some point which implies that something exists outside of that design.


https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Firim_in_Exile,_Part_7

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Fir...xile,_Epilogue

[rhorle]

That's not even implied at all, what??? That also completely ignores the point of the First Ones...that they came first. The Pantheons are the children of them. Titans are the next layer down from the First Ones.

Them creating rules/prisons/boundaries/whatever doesn't mean they were the first in existence. It doesn't say they created the cosmic forces only that they created things to make them function a certain way. What were things like before they did all of that? Was there no death until they created Zerith Mortis and the Shadowlands? If the Primal 6 (really 7) forces existed before the first ones design then why couldn't other things?

All we know is that they created the Eternal Ones. What if there was previous creatures of death they killed/imprisoned? The links I provided do indeed help my argument. Because it shows that what the First Ones created doesn't need to last and that there is a seventh force they never bound.

It is also from a bias perspective favorable to the First Ones. Just like the past lore (Chronicles) was favorable to the Titans. When we encounter another realms creatures we may find that the First Ones take a different story/tone or something else existed that the First Ones changed.

[rhorle]

Anything otherwise would imo be purely copium on your end.

The only one with copium here is yourself. Before the first ones were created in the lore it was Light vs Void that created everything. Now the First Ones created stuff. Next it could be different a origin based on the bias of the "in-game" writer. This is why there is a difference between the Titan perspective on the Eternal/broker perspective. The Shadowlands has a greater connection to the First Ones so they may favor them even with things they might not actually be responsible for.

The Edicts just show that the first ones were a power. It specifically says they granted power to the Titans. It doesn't say they created the Titans. It is implied they did from what we know of the Shadowlands. It could be that they empowered existing creatures. Nothing says that all Zerith's and Cosmic forces were created from "robots".

The First Ones have been confirmed to create the Cosmic Forces as we know them. The thing you ignore is that the grimoire, just like chronicles, is from an unreliable narrator. One that will have a bias towards their own beliefs. So the First Ones might not have created everything but just set up the cosmic machine. Just as the Titan perspective favors them and Light vs Void sending splinters into the universe.


These six forces existed in strife. Well, not strife in the way one such as you or I would see it. Opposition surely, but whether malignant or benign is unclear. There was imbalance, until there was a need for something more.

They came together (or were brought together, depending on how one interprets the fractal) and gave form to their design. Forged? Scribed? Shaped? The exact word is elusive. Each architect gave a portion of themselves, and thus the pattern was drawn. -- https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Exp..._A37J_-_Part_1

The above implies that the First Ones didn't actually create the Cosmic Forces. They just brought them together for a purpose/design. Once that happened things started to be created ontop of that design. Nothing is concrete about the First Ones and their role because Blizzard is writing it as they go along. Did everything we know actually start as creations of the First Ones? Or did somethings get modified by them for the design/experiment.

It is also implied that the First Ones augmented each cosmic force with their own essence instead of creating them. That there were at least 6. Maybe 7 (Azeroth is the 7th?). Maybe a whole bunch more based on the fractals, song, or whatever. Like I said our reality could simply be a locker in a bus stop for the First Ones (the men in black reference if you again don't understand that).

[Psykho]

Honestly if we ever meet a Fel pantheon, I'd like it if they were based on things that cause chaos but are not automatically/inherently evil
*a Cyberpunk horror representing Ambition
*a Succubi overlord with a duality theme between love and lust, representing Desire
*Some form of southern gentleman styled demon akin to Tahm Kench from League of Legends representing Money

[rhorle]

But regarding the Titans, what? Why would Odyn call them "The Makers" then, and why wouldn't the Lords of Order be made in Zereth Ordus? It's no different to how the Eternal Ones were made in Zereth Mortis.

We don't know that yet. Each Zerith could create things in a different way. Given how the Titans survived Sargeras it seems clear that they are not just an automa with a soul. As they existed with out their physical forms. We know they come from world-souls. If they are creations of the First One the implications are they got merged with planets rather then automa. To make the Titans automa would require a lot of retcons.

Until Blizzard fully reveals the lore surrounding the other Zeriths we don't know for sure if they function just like Eternal Ones and Zerith Mortis. I also never said the First Ones were robots (though they certainly could be). What I said was nothing says all Zerith and Cosmic forces create robots. The Eternal one are robots since they are magically empowered Automa. Empowered with a soul to make them have mercy/feelings when carrying out their task. Android might be a better term but that is really getting down to semantics or nitpicking just for the sake of it.

[DatToffer]

what do you think about it?

I think I made a thread about it a some time ago, with my own interpretations of the different pantheon : https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...nced-Pantheons

And this is what I came up with for Disorder.

Pantheon of Disorder

The Queen of Temptation : Responsible for the phenomenon of corruption. She's the one who gives mortal races delusions of grandeur, tempting them to join the Fel side of the Forces and turn into demons. Basically she would look like a big momma Shivarra.

The Decaying Grandpa : The Affliction spec master, he would look a lot like the Primus or Gul'dan, because that design is always a win.

The Roar-Roar Demon Warrior : Let's get back to the roots of Warcraft and just do fucking Khorne. His design would be a mix of Doomgard, Felguard and Pit lord. His purpose is just to fucking destroy and inspire other demons to destroy too.

The Trickster Impgod : Not sure it would be a part of the Pantheon. But maybe more like a Bwonsamdi kind of side character. Because we love a good trickster with a neat voice actor.

If Blizzard manages to remember which demons are native demons and which are corrupted races, we might get some interesting things ? If not, then I expect some callback to the fact that warlocks can summon Void walkers. So maybe a god like the Winter Queen, but making a bridge between Fel and Void.

Obviously, if we didn't see them up until now, it's because Sargeras fucking murdered them and used their spirits to lead his army of demons !

[DatToffer]

Also, if we didn't see them till now, they either don't exist, they killed themselves, or they're still around and simply don't care about Reality, Sargeras, or Us, as they're likely battling eachother or some shit, much like the Chaos Gods in 40k.

I think it's the latter tbh. Doubt Sargeras killed them, would be anticlimactic otherwise.

It would be hard for Sargeras to kill something that is still not written in the lore. But it could be an easy way to not write this Pantheon : "Yeah, there was a Disorder Pantheon, they all die. We know nothing. Too bad."

I for one can't wait to learn that the Fel Pantheon has been keeping most of the demons to themselves and that the Crusade of Sargeras actually represented a teeny tiny portion of their population.

[rhorle]

You do realize the Eternal Ones aren't just "Automa" either yeah?

They essentially are. We fight their prototypes and we are told that souls were added in order to make sure they had mercy and compassion to carry out their duties. When an eternal one dies an automa vessel is created to house it. The powers of the Eternal One are not just tied to the soul used but also the automa and/or magic used to infuse the soul in the automa.

The Legion fight with Argus/Sargeras showed that Titans don't function the same way. Which shows that the First Ones didn't create the Titans in the same way they did the Eternal Ones. Denathrius doesn't prove anything because he hasn't yet regained a physical form that we know of. Blizzard not showing him leave behind an automa could simply be an oversight. There are also hints that Denathrius is working with someone beyond the Jailer which might have altered how he behaves.

If the cosmic forces existed prior to the First Ones shaping them then they couldn't have also created the cosmic forces. The powers becoming what we see today by being infused with the essence of the First Ones indicates they were not created by the first ones. They existed already and were shaped by the First Ones. You even keep saying this but won't acknowledge it.

I'm not ignoring anything about the First Ones. We don't know if they made anything else first. That is what I have been saying. There are a bunch of things we don't know but you keep making absolute statements on their capabilities and what they have done. Just like the Origin of the Cosmos has changed from splinters of Light and Shadow to "First Ones ordering the cosmic forces". We don't know and things change.

- - - Updated - - -

It would be hard for Sargeras to kill something that is still not written in the lore. But it could be an easy way to not write this Pantheon : "Yeah, there was a Disorder Pantheon, they all die. We know nothing. Too bad."

Demons naturally regenerate. It can easily be that they were killed by the Burning Legion and take a long time to regenerate or that process was being inhibited by the Legion. Remember Argus enabled demons to respawn faster then they normally could so it could also be that they could reverse the process to make some demons take longer. It would actually make sense for that to be the case because not all demons might have bent the knee.

[ZazuuPriest]

honestly Danuser has probably already forgotten about the other Pantheons I wouldnt count on any mention of any of it again for a while and when he does he will retcon his retcons

[loras]

You're seriously downplaying the Cosmic side of WoW hard if you think the other Pantheons won't factor in the story later on.

The pantheons are barely one expansion old, the cosmic stuff is much older, i wouldn't get too attached.
The only pantheon before that was the titanic pantheon.

The idea that the other cosmic powers also all have their pantheons (even when that runs directly counter to their nature such as with chaos) is just just a really poorly thought out idea that clashes with WoW's lore at more than a few levels, and that already required significant retcons to implement.
The idea that a lot more retcons will be needed to keep the whole thing from ripping itself apart really isn't far fetched in the slightest, hell i would not be surprised if they somehow reretcon the idea out again altogether.

In short: Don't get too attached.

[rhorle]

Regardless of purpose, Denathrius is still a soul.

Right. He hasn't assumed a phyiscal form yet. The Titans have been shown to be able to go from spirit to physical on their own. What we know of Eternal Ones is that they require a vessel. That hasn't yet been contradicted by Denathrius.

Of course I am using the perspective shift to aid my arguments. That is my point. Most of what we know about the first ones comes from the perspective that highly favors them. It means that anything they say may not be true because just like with the Titan PoV it is written in a way to emphasis certain parts. We know very little of the light let alone that it is a prismatic sea and song of hope and joy.

Your point about the first ones not being mentioned again shows why taking anything from the Grimoire as 100% fact is silly. Just as the Titan's were biased so to could the Brokers. Blizzard has introduced a bias to these types of lore so they can easily change things for future additions with out having to "retcon" stuff. That is why the information about the First Ones is just speculation unless confirmed by other perspectives or non-biased lore.

[ZazuuPriest]

You're seriously downplaying the Cosmic side of WoW hard if you think the other Pantheons won't factor in the story later on.

what im downplaying is Danuser and the rest of the wow writing teams ability to create a coherent story and not have astronomical levels of adhd when it comes to their writing.