Would annihilating the Horde have changed major outcomes?

[Ropeway]

Imagine as a thought experiment, that, if instead of interning orcs at the end of the second war, had the Alliance out and out hunted down and wiped out all orcs and their allies at the end of the Second War, once and for all.

Would the consequences down the light, around the time of WC3 and beyond, have been majorly different?

[Yetanothernewbie]

Imagine as a thought experiment, that, if instead of interning orcs at the end of the second war, had the Alliance out and out hunted down and wiped out all orcs and their allies at the end of the Second War, once and for all.

Would the consequences down the light, around the time of WC3 and beyond, have been majorly different?

The Legion would have still come and without the Horde to help stop them Azeroth would have burned.

[Ropeway]

The Legion would have still come and without the Horde to help stop them Azeroth would have burned.

I think the Alliance and the Night Elves would've managed just fine amongst themselves.

If anything, if such resources weren't hogged by the maintenance of the internment camps, Alliance would've been in a stronger state than it had been at the time of the invasion.

[Yetanothernewbie]

I think the Alliance and the Night Elves would've managed just fine amongst themselves.

If anything, if such resources weren't hogged by the maintenance of the internment camps, Alliance would've been in a stronger state than it had been at the time of the invasion.

Except that the Alliance would not exist. It would be the separate human Kingdoms, Ironforge and Silvermoon each standing alone when a fully Sargeras possessed Medivh made whatever moves he would need to bring the Legion to bear on Azeroth.

[Ropeway]

Except that the Alliance would not exist. It would be the separate human Kingdoms, Ironforge and Silvermoon each standing alone when a fully Sargeras possessed Medivh made whatever moves he would need to bring the Legion to bear on Azeroth.

Sargeras possessed Medivh had already been neutralized back in the timeframe of WC1.

[Varodoc]

The Lich King would not be created. The Scourge would not exist. Lordaeron, Dalaran, and Quel'Thalas would still stand in their prime state. The Third War would have been averted.

No orcs also means no Garrosh, which means no WoD, which means no Alternate Gul'dan, which means no Third Legion Invasion (the invasion from WoW: Legion).

The main threat at this point would not be the Legion (cut off from Azeroth) or the Scourge (non-existent), but the Old Gods C'Thun, Yogg-Saron, and N'Zoth. Without the Horde to serve as cannon fodder/meat shield, the Alliance would likely lack the manpower to face them, unless all the Wild Gods joined the fray from the Emerald Dream/Ardenweald.

Indeed, this is why the Infinite Dragonflight, agents of the Old Gods, tried to disrupt the timelines by preventing the orcs from crossing the Dark Portal. It's not necessarily that the Horde and the orcs were a good thing for Azeroth or deserve a place in Azeroth, it's just that the Alliance would likely lack the manpower to defeat the Old Gods by themselves, and so they'd need the orcs and their Horde to help them on the battlefield. Like empty heads/puppets in a board game.

I do wonder if N'Zoth would have ever found freedom in this scenario, since the Legion invasion and Sargeras causing azerite to pop up all over the planet (= Heart of Azeroth) would have been averted.

[Ropeway]

The Lich King would not be created. The Scourge would not exist. Lordaeron, Dalaran, and Quel'Thalas would still stand in their prime state. The Third War would have been averted.

No orcs also means no Garrosh, which means no WoD, which means no Alternate Gul'dan, which means no Third Legion Invasion (the invasion from WoW: Legion).

The main threat at this point would not be the Legion (cut off from Azeroth) or the Scourge (non-existent), but the Old Gods C'Thun, Yogg-Saron, and N'Zoth. Without the Horde to serve as cannon fodder/meat shield, the Alliance would likely lack the manpower to face them, unless all the Wild Gods joined the fray from the Emerald Dream/Ardenweald.

Indeed, this is why the Infinite Dragonflight, agents of the Old Gods, tried to disrupt the timelines by preventing the orcs from crossing the Dark Portal. It's not necessarily that the Horde and the orcs were a good thing for Azeroth or deserve a place in Azeroth, it's just that the Alliance would likely lack the manpower to defeat the Old Gods by themselves, and so they'd need the orcs and their Horde to help them on the battlefield. Like empty heads/puppets in a board game.

I do wonder if N'Zoth would have ever found freedom in this scenario, since the Legion invasion and Sargeras causing azerite to pop up all over the planet (= Heart of Azeroth) would have been averted.

Perhaps the manpower issue could be self compensated by no internment camps and no scourge. Leading there being far more humans (and elves) around.

[Yetanothernewbie]

Sargeras possessed Medivh had already been neutralized back in the timeframe of WC1.

My mistake I went on the the tangent of the Horde never invading.

But the Scourge would still scour the Eastern Kingdoms, Arthas still falls under the sway of Lich King and slaughters much of Lordaeron. And the Alliance and the Night Elves still don't have enough forces to stand against the Legion and The Scourge at Hyjal to stop Archimonde from reaching the World Tree before Malfurion could prepare the trap.

[Varodoc]

Perhaps the manpower issue could be self compensated by no internment camps and no scourge. Leading there being far more humans (and elves) around.

I didn't think of that, and you are probably right.

In Canon, Lordaeron (the largest and strongest human kingdom) and Quel'Thalas (90% of its population) were basically exterminated. Dalaran also suffered massive casualties, as did the Night elves, who sacrificed their Immortality.

Perhaps, Lordaeron, Quel'Thalas, Dalaran, and the Kaldorei in their prime state (the Kaldorei would be Immortal) could replace the Horde in the War against C'Thun in Silithus and in the the War against Yogg-Saron in Northrend.

It all depends on how you think the Canon Horde compares to Lordaeron, Quel'Thalas, Dalaran, and the Kaldorei in their prime state, if they were never ruined by the Scourge/Legion in the Third War.

Personally, I think those four forces in their prime far outclass the Kalimdor Horde (a ragtag throng of barbarians living in mud huts) in terms of manpower, resources, and technology, but I digress.

For instance, would the war effort in Silithus from Classic really do that worse, if the Horde side of the army was replaced by the full might of pre-Third War Lordaeron and Quel'Thalas? I'm not so sure.

Also, Cenarius the Demi-God of Nature would still be alive, I'm sure he could pull some useful shenanigans in Silithus against C'Thun.

[Aucald]

I think the Alliance and the Night Elves would've managed just fine amongst themselves.

If anything, if such resources weren't hogged by the maintenance of the internment camps, Alliance would've been in a stronger state than it had been at the time of the invasion.

The developers have pretty much stated that without the Horde's assistance (primarily enacting Malfurion's strategy at Hyjal) the Legion and Scourge would've won the day and Azeroth would've fallen as a matter of course. The Horde in WC3 became more than just the leftover orcs from the Second War, they united/saved the Tauren tribes of Mulgore and enlisted the Darkspear trolls to join their number. Without the events that led Thrall and his people to Kalimdor, this wouldn't have happened, and the joint forces opposing Archimonde would've been considerably diminished.

[loras]

Imagine as a thought experiment, that, if instead of interning orcs at the end of the second war, had the Alliance out and out hunted down and wiped out all orcs and their allies at the end of the Second War, once and for all.

Would the consequences down the light, around the time of WC3 and beyond, have been majorly different?

Yep, they were vital to defeating the burning legion.
So say the bronze dragons in escape from Durnholde.
And they know the future and the past.

[Ropeway]

The developers have pretty much stated that without the Horde's assistance (primarily enacting Malfurion's strategy at Hyjal) the Legion and Scourge would've won the day and Azeroth would've fallen as a matter of course. The Horde in WC3 became more than just the leftover orcs from the Second War, they united/saved the Tauren tribes of Mulgore and enlisted the Darkspear trolls to join their number. Without the events that led Thrall and his people to Kalimdor, this wouldn't have happened, and the joint forces opposing Archimonde would've been considerably diminished.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53979398

[Linkedblade]

I didn't think of that, and you are probably right.

In Canon, Lordaeron (the largest and strongest human kingdom) and Quel'Thalas (90% of its population) were basically exterminated. Dalaran also suffered massive casualties, as did the Night elves, who sacrificed their Immortality.

Perhaps, Lordaeron, Quel'Thalas, Dalaran, and the Kaldorei in their prime state (the Kaldorei would be Immortal) could replace the Horde in the War against C'Thun in Silithus and in the the War against Yogg-Saron in Northrend.

It all depends on how you think the Canon Horde compares to Lordaeron, Quel'Thalas, Dalaran, and the Kaldorei in their prime state, if they were never ruined by the Scourge/Legion in the Third War.

Personally, I think those four forces in their prime far outclass the Kalimdor Horde (a ragtag throng of barbarians living in mud huts) in terms of manpower, resources, and technology, but I digress.

For instance, would the war effort in Silithus from Classic really do that worse, if the Horde side of the army was replaced by the full might of pre-Third War Lordaeron and Quel'Thalas? I'm not so sure.

Also, Cenarius the Demi-God of Nature would still be alive, I'm sure he could pull some useful shenanigans in Silithus against C'Thun.

Even if those kingdoms were at their strongest before the Legion invasion, they wouldn't have any cohesion or any real reason to work together.

We know from the War of the Ancients that the Night Elves, Earthen, and Tauren fought in alliance against the Legion. But there is no saying that Humans and Elves would have cooperated the same. Without the WC3 Orc campaign, all of these races would have no reason to need to find allies. Some don't even know of others' existence.

[Aucald]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53979398

Which is itself incorrect. The presence of the internment camps had nothing to do with Kel'Thuzad, his research into Necromancy, and his later entry into the Lich King's service. The death of the remaining orcs (instead of their internment) of the Second War would also have occurred after WC2: BtDP, meaning Ner'zhul would've still destroyed Draenor, been lost in the Nether, found by Kil'jaeden, and still become the first Lich King. With all those still in place, the Plague would've still come to Lordaeron, the Scourge would still exist, and Arthas himself would be lost and become a Death Knight since those events also have no connection to the remaining orcs in Lordaeron. Garrosh would not have to come to exist, sure; but since the Legion would've been triumphant at Hyjal, none of the events of WoW would come to exist in any case.

[Mehrunes]

The idea that lack of internment camps somehow prevents the Scourge et al does not pan out in the slightest. The Dark Portal was reopened for the first time by Ner'zhul, who hasn't set a foot on Azeroth, after he was convinced by Gorefiend, who escaped back to Draenor before the Alliance closed it. Then Teron and his squad did a few hit and run attacks to gather magical artifacts and then fucked off to Draenor with them before anyone could even react. Kinda why the Alliance needed the Alliance expedition to fight this particular threat by bringing the fight to them.

And since the existence of the internment camps or lack of thereof does not particularly impact the Alliance expedition, they still are too late to stop Ner'zhul from opening his portals on Draenor, escaping through one of them, getting captured by Kil'Jaeden and getting turned into a Popsicle. After which everything Scourge-related is not impacted by Orcs anymore one way or another and it's humans all the way down. So Lordaeron is screwed, Quel'Thalas is screwed and then Azeroth falls to Archimonde's attack on Hyjal.

[Sinraye]

Imagine as a thought experiment, that, if instead of interning orcs at the end of the second war, had the Alliance out and out hunted down and wiped out all orcs and their allies at the end of the Second War, once and for all.

Would the consequences down the light, around the time of WC3 and beyond, have been majorly different?

It could've been different, or not so different. It ALL depends on the writers at Blizzard. They hold all the power. They are a business, so it wouldn't be so different as that the remaining races would be defeated as there would be no world of warcraft then, so it would've probably been similar, albeit different.

[Varodoc]

Even if those kingdoms were at their strongest before the Legion invasion, they wouldn't have any cohesion or any real reason to work together.

The Second War disproves that notion.

As for the Night elves, didn't they send some help to Quel'Thalas during the Troll Wars, according to Chronicles?

[Linkedblade]

The Second War disproves that notion.

As for the Night elves, didn't they send some help to Quel'Thalas during the Troll Wars, according to Chronicles?

Not really, The humans and high elves had a delicate relationship. Had the orcs not invaded, then quel'thalas would have been better insulated and more isolationist.

[Maljinwo]

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53979398

Using varodoc to support your case is actually a point against you

Without the Horde, the Third War would have been won by the Legion. Arguing that 'there wouldn't be a lich king' is silly considering they could've sent the Nathrezim to oversee the undead anyway

[Yetanothernewbie]

Using varodoc to support your case is actually a point against you

Without the Horde, the Third War would have been won by the Legion. Arguing that 'there wouldn't be a lich king' is silly considering they could've sent the Nathrezim to oversee the undead anyway

The internment camps didn't even get into full swing until after the events of Beyond the Dark Portal. So Ner'zhul would still be set on the path of becoming the Lich King.