Can someone make sense of the lore to me here?

[Knight Meta]

Now while I tend to read quest text and watch all in-game cut scenes the first time trough; There are some parts of the lore here that confuses me a bit and since WoWpedia and Google searches really yielded no answers to what I sought and there always seems to be someone around here that knows the story like their own pocket; I figured I'd ask here just in case I missed something or parts of the story is ONCE AGAIN Not all explained in-game (Looking at you War Crimes)

Naturally this means I will speak about potential spoilers from the latest raid and some of the "Higher Renown" quests.

So first off: Why was Raszageth sealed in a different location than the three other primal incarnates?
If what Alexstrasza says is anything to go by; Iridikron is the toughest of these 4 and should have received special treatment in that regard. I also got that it was primarily Neltharion that sealed away Raszageth but... How did he manage that alone? Unless I missed something it apparently took A LOT out of all the Aspects to seal them away so how did Neltharion 1v1 one of them into submission if the remaining 4 was needed to do a 4v3? - And sure: just to get a bit of a head-start for the next question - Even if we say that this was simply "Done so that Iridikron would not be the first one we defeat because that would deflate some of the tension" - How exactly are these Primal Incarnates suppose to be a threat considering:

Secondly: Wasn't The Jailer a Titan+(+) level threat?

So quick headcount of what we have beaten in WoW over the years as final / near final bosses in an expansion.

Classic: Kel'Thuzad; which by all means is just a powerful Lich. Beaten by us alone.
TBC: A weakened Kil'jaeden where we were back seated by Kalec and his GF: the Waifu version of The Sunwell.
WoTLK: The Lich King which was a REALLY close call had Tirion not pulled the light out of his ass.
Cata: Deathwing where we were back seated by the Aspects who gave up their powers + Green Jesus who wielded the McGuffin Shotgun.
MoP: Garrosh... Just Garrosh on some expired Old God juice, arguably the weakest and most pathetic last expansion foe we ever faced.
WoD: Archimonde which while back seated by Khagdar, Yrel and Grom - Mythic proves that WE were the ones alone to deliver the final blow. Makes sense, he is an all powerful Eredar but we have grown in power a lot over the years.
Legion: Argus - Where not only did we wield ALL the McGuffins but we were also back seated by THE LITTERAL TITANS. So easy fix.
BFA: N'zoth, supposed weakest of the Old Gods. Wrathion used McGuffin 1, we all had McGuffin necklaces and Magni had the "Azeroth Shotgun"
SL: The Jailer - Who to my knowledge; was just beaten by us... ? Sure we had the power from the Covenants but I was never given the impression that this was anywhere near as powerful as a bazooka literally empowered by Azeroths lifeblood.

Now I know that in some instances (Especially in the past) - The players was not the heroes "In the written lore" and iirc, The Lich King didn't even have us players mentioned in "The Shattering" book which bridges the gap between WOTLK and Cata; but didn't this trend end with WoD? Haven't we the players been the ones to deal the decisive blow as of late? And if so:

How on EARTH is any of the Primal Incarnates suppose to be a threat if The Jailer was as powerful as he supposedly was? Sure we don't have the covenant bonds now but... Cmon... We used a planetary nuke to kill N'zoth but simply had the power of friendship against a Titan+(+) level threat. What are the stakes this time around? Am I missing something that makes these Primal Incarnates much more dangerous than they actually seem to be?

[Puxycat]

If you have noticed they are not really "they will end azeroth" big of threat , you would notice it is just the dragoons are spooked because they know they gonna get smacked badly without powers and it is their turn to bottom this time.

TL;DR they are a threat but not huge one more like a danger to aspects.

[Elbob]

we were so juiced on anima and our soulbinds were insane effective power. Even if that power doesn't didn't show in game in lore it was a big deal to all have soulbinds. And the jailer was pretty dependent on his domination magic which we were immune/resistant to.

[lordjust]

On Razageth and the aspects. Yes, Neltharion managed to defeat Razageth alone after he saw that his Dracthyr couldn't handle her but he had his aspectral powers and it was tough enough of a fight that he started to look for other forms of power. Also he was the strongest of the aspects with Razageth being the weakest.

They are a threat now because they're stronger stronger than Razageth, the aspects still lack their power, they don't have Neltharion who was the strongest of them.

As for N'zoth. We used the reorigination device. A device meant to kill all life on Azeroth to start anew with a clean rock. As for the Jailer. We used the engine of creation powered by Azeroth against him. A device so powerful that it can change all realities. So multi-timeline, multi-dimension and so on destroying device.

There were mcguffins that allowed us to defeat those foes that we don't have anymore. So they're a threat because we lack the mcguffin. The moment we find out how to get Tyr back working and help the aspects get their powers back the incarnates aren't that big aof a threat anymore. We'd still only have 3 out of the 5 aspects but they'd have our help.

[Super Dickmann]

The Bald Man was a Titan+ level threat in so far as he could do more damage than Sargeras did since his incredibly convoluted plan would've resulted in everyone everywhere being part of his mystical new world simultaneously. He didn't have Titan-level power and the story never even attempts to push that. The dude's backstory is based around him losing a fight and the consequences thereof. On-screen, while I'm sure you could be distracted by his scintillating personality, he also never wins a fight straight up. Every time he fights things are stacked in his favour or he's trying to get something and fuck off. He operates almost entirely by proxies. Even his final fight doesn't hinge at all on his abilities in a vacuum. Instead, it hinges on him MCing the players, trying to destroy Azeroth (through a console linked to two plot devices) and using elements of the room to help him out. His goal isn't even to defeat the players but to finish his business with the world as that'd make it moot.

Dude's firmly in the mid-tier of final raid bosses power-wise, definitely below N'zoth and Argus, arguably below WoD Archimonde.

As for the Incarnates, they're also about mid-tier, at least until the earth one becomes mini-Galakrond.

[Armael]

When you 1st arrive to help Wrathion in the main story quests on the Waking Shores, the video that plays with the dracthyr that's speaking with Nozdormu clearly shows that after Raszageth surprise attacks his army and breaks his (I'm gonna call it an infinity gauntlet), it is then shown he's using old god powers to help seal away Raszageth. He was still sane and a good guy at this point, but knew he made the ultimate sacrifice to help seal Raszageth away, so knowing he'd suffer further corruption later on from making this pact with the old god(s?), he sealed away the Dracthyr to protect them from himself and other void influences. So unless I or everyone else missed something else here, this is what I think also makes him completely batshit by the time Cata rolls around and we have to stop him.

[Hitei]

SL: The Jailer - Who to my knowledge; was just beaten by us... ? Sure we had the power from the Covenants but I was never given the impression that this was anywhere near as powerful as a bazooka literally empowered by Azeroths lifeblood.

Now I know that in some instances (Especially in the past) - The players was not the heroes "In the written lore" and iirc, The Lich King didn't even have us players mentioned in "The Shattering" book which bridges the gap between WOTLK and Cata; but didn't this trend end with WoD? Haven't we the players been the ones to deal the decisive blow as of late? And if so:

How on EARTH is any of the Primal Incarnates suppose to be a threat if The Jailer was as powerful as he supposedly was? Sure we don't have the covenant bonds now but... Cmon... We used a planetary nuke to kill N'zoth but simply had the power of friendship against a Titan+(+) level threat. What are the stakes this time around? Am I missing something that makes these Primal Incarnates much more dangerous than they actually seem to be?

The Jailer was not "just beaten by us" and you are vastly underselling the covenant empowerment.

Not only are you directly empowered by the covenant (which itself is juiced by being fed anima the entire expansion), you are also:
-soul bound with and gaining power and knowledge from three different individuals in your covenant
-wearing domination-magic-empowered gear hand crafted by the Primus
-directly protected against the primary magic of the Jailer by using a combination of the Primus' abilities, First Ones' cypher magic, and power borrowed from Bolvar, Mograine, Anduin, and Sylvanas to make the Crown of Wills.

[Aleksej89]

blizz mentioned they want to step away from the OMEGAWORLDENDINGDEATHFORALL!!!!!!!!! threats and go back to some more sensible story lines.

However the problem with that is when you spend the previous X expansions overbloating the villains into "EVEN BIGGA THAN LAST GUY!!!" and then go back to some lesser threats it feels awkward as heck.

Blizzard metaphorically and literally stepped neck-deep into some shit tier story writing with the previous 2 expansions.
Lesser villains in DF are a good step towards getting out of that shit but it will all still reek of shit for a while.

Lets hope blizzard does not relapse back into omega-shit writing by making another BIGGESTVILLAINEVAAAA!!!!!

[Mic_128]

it is then shown he's using old god powers to help seal away Raszageth. He was still sane and a good guy at this point, but knew he made the ultimate sacrifice to help seal Raszageth away, so knowing he'd suffer further corruption later on from making this pact with the old god(s?), he sealed away the Dracthyr to protect them from himself and other void influences.

Oh please, if that was true he would have done something as well to protect his flight.

He ended up succumbing to the whispers and used the Void to deal with Raszageth. He then had to take care of the witnesses to what he'd done, because there was no way he could let the other aspects find out.

[Golden Yak]

Also, I think it's implied that Azeroth may have been juicing the heroes up against the Jailer. At least, some of the raid mechanics involve tapping into Azeroth's power.

[Malkiah]

Secondly: Wasn't The Jailer a Titan+(+) level threat?

quick side here: far as i know, no he wasn't, not even a little bit.
there's nothing to my knowledge in any of the lore, anything in game, or anything outside the game that paints the jailer (or any of the eternal ones) as being notably powerful in any capacity whatsoever.

clearly each eternal one has some kind of meta-physical influence within their respective area of the shadowlands, but i never saw anything to suggest they had power (notable or otherwise) outside of their 'zones'.
canonically, the jailer was just the arbiter - who then got sealed away and locked out of their office job by the other eternal ones - and then spent the next few thousand odd years grifting assorted lay-abouts in the maw and the other covenant regions to join his gang, and being supported by his rich ex-coworker who lended him use of a spy agency.
he seems to have a roughly similar level of power within the confines of the maw as the other eternal ones have in their own domains, which is... not much? the ability to sometimes be sort of aware of things going on their areas, and being the nominal 'leader' of whatever resides in that area.
he also uses domination magic, but i'm pretty sure (unless i'm misremembering this) that the primus actually came up with the idea for domination magic and the jailer just got really good at it while in the maw, which is really no different from any mortal caster practicing in a particular school.

everything the jailer accomplishes in game is the result of machinations and influence, but he doesn't really do anything himself.
at the end, he's just a magical doll with a long-view plan to use a machine to blow some shit up. we never see him do anything in game more significant than use portals, and that's no more impressive than mages.

[Jaggler]

clearly each eternal one has some kind of meta-physical influence within their respective area of the shadowlands, but i never saw anything to suggest they had power (notable or otherwise) outside of their 'zones'.

I don't think that's true.

The Primus is very able to use his powers outside of Maldraxxus, considering he crafted the runic magic of Domination to bind the Jailer to the Maw (which the Jailer then used against him).

I don't think they are powerless or even less powerful outside their realms, they just have little to know reason to exert their power outside of their realms or purposes. h Kyrian could amass a huge army, should they choose to, carrying every dying soul in the cosmos into their realm, the Primus can invent new, terrifying magic, The Winter Queen not only has a grasp over death but also life and Denathrius managed to infiltrate all major forces of the cosmos.

[Malkiah]

I don't think that's true.

The Primus is very able to use his powers outside of Maldraxxus, considering he crafted the runic magic of Domination to bind the Jailer to the Maw (which the Jailer then used against him).

well right he used magic - clearly the eternal ones are powerful magic users.
but jaina is also a powerful magic user, that doesn't make her a titan-level threat.

I don't think they are powerless or even less powerful outside their realms, they just have little to know reason to exert their power outside of their realms or purposes. h Kyrian could amass a huge army, should they choose to, carrying every dying soul in the cosmos into their realm, the Primus can invent new, terrifying magic, The Winter Queen not only has a grasp over death but also life and Denathrius managed to infiltrate all major forces of the cosmos.

none of which are 'titan level threats' or notably powerful figures in terms of their ability to exert their will on physical reality.

i'm not saying the eternal ones are equivalent to farmer bob, just that there's nothing in game that gives evidence to them being any more powerful than say a watcher/keeper.

[Aleksej89]

Tital level or above for jailer comes from a Blizzard post before Slands launch, or around launch.

I have seen it a long time ago so Blizz intends jailer to be titan or above.

[Jaggler]

well right he used magic - clearly the eternal ones are powerful magic users.
but jaina is also a powerful magic user, that doesn't make her a titan-level threat.


none of which are 'titan level threats' or notably powerful figures in terms of their ability to exert their will on physical reality.

i'm not saying the eternal ones are equivalent to farmer bob, just that there's nothing in game that gives evidence to them any more powerful than say a watcher/keeper.

It'snot that the Primus used magic. He literally created a new type of magic.

The jailer had the ability and motivation to literally unmake reality. That to me seems very "Titan+ Powerlevel". That's one step further than what f.e. Sargeras wanted.

i'm not saying the eternal ones are equivalent to farmer bob, just that there's nothing in game that gives evidence to them any more powerful than say a watcher/keeper.

I'd say the Eternal Ones are about the same as Titans in Azeroths physical realm.

[Malkiah]

It'snot that the Primus used magic. He literally created a new type of magic.

ok... and?

The jailer had the ability and motivation to literally find a machine that other more powerful entities made that would allow him to unmake reality.

important context there.
the jailer himself couldn't unmake shit, his whole deal was finding a magical nuke that powerful entities made and using that.

I'd say the Eternal Ones are about the same as Titans in Azeroths physical realm.

i mean ok, you can say that, but there's just nothing in any available canon that suggests this.

[Cynical Asshole]

The Jailer was a galactic threat. Raszageth is a world threat to Azeroth.

Rasza is nowhere near as powerful as the Jailer, of course, but it's still a world ending threat. No one claimed Raszageth was a threat to the galaxy but it's enough to be a threat to Azeroth.

[Ihavewaffles]

On Razageth and the aspects. Yes, Neltharion managed to defeat Razageth alone after he saw that his Dracthyr couldn't handle her but he had his aspectral powers and it was tough enough of a fight that he started to look for other forms of power. Also he was the strongest of the aspects with Razageth being the weakest.

They are a threat now because they're stronger stronger than Razageth, the aspects still lack their power, they don't have Neltharion who was the strongest of them.

Neltharion was never the strongest of them. He was killed by Alexstrasza, Queen of the Dragons, then rezzed to full health by N'Zoth which made him op haxx

3:58 "The Earth Warder...he is dead."

[Le Conceptuel]

Neltharion was never the strongest of them. He was killed by Alexstrasza, Queen of the Dragons, then rezzed to full health by N'Zoth which made him op haxx

I think that was just a mistake or confusion on the part of Alexstrasza. She probably didn't realize how thoroughly-corrupted Deathwing was by this point, and that Deathwing's relative power over the other aspects came more from the influence of the Old Gods overall rather than being resurrected by N'Zoth at any point. Either way, you are right that Neltharion wasn't strictly the strongest of the Aspects—I think it's more that Deathwing was more powerful than any of the Aspects on account of his plating and the influence of the Old Gods.

[Sableye]

they aren't world ending, but if they killed the aspects and their flights the world would start to unravel. The blue flight for example regulates arcane magic which while the primalists hate it, springs forth from azeroth herself, so if you don't regulate it, bad stuff can happen, and the green flight protects the emerald dream along with the night elves, both of which are in diminished capacity, and that keeps nature in balance. Kill the dragon flights and things get dicey...we're not even talking about how bad things would get if the bronze flight were killed

But also remember, this is only an expeditionary force of mostly non military members for the horde and alliance. if the primals went to the rest of azeroth they'd quickly get the entire horde and alliance alligned against them