Group Loot SUCKS

[Stanelis1]

Personal loot was essentially you and others automatically clicking need on an item and rolling it for you, in the background where nobody could see.
But now you're seeing it and you're all like "Oh, he's needing on something he doesn't need".

That s not how personal loot worked. The system picked at random players and those players got a loot from the possible loot the could get from the boss.

With group loot the system makes a boss drop a certain amount of items depending on how many people are in the raid and then the odd of getting an item depends on how many players can roll for it.

With group loot odds of getting an item depends on how many player can roll on it. With personal loot the amount of player that could have looted a specific item isn t a factor influencing the odd of you getting an item. With group loot a very lucky player can highroll and get one item per boss or more and a lot of players are bound to get nothing oer lockout. With PL you generally had 1 or 2 loots per lockouts.

Group loot and master loot sytem were asked for by guilds to have better agencies in loot repartition in static groups. With a static group group loot and personal loot amounts to the same and prevent applicants to get the best loot when they just joined the guild (if an item drop several time over the weeks for a static group, it reduces the amount of player who can roll on it). However in a pick up group you never run the content with the same players so you are still expecting to compete with other players for the same loot and it makesno sense to have master loot or group loot and they are mostly toxic systems.

[fazaim]

No, it doesn't. We had this system before. It encourages the exact opposite.

That's the point here. This isn't news. We've already dealt with this before. That's why Blizzard implemented PL to begin with.

But it doesn't encourage the exact opposite, so where do you want to go with this? I'm literally experiencing exactly what I'm writing, and I enjoy it and same for my guildies and friends. All I can say if that's the case for you is too bad, sorry you've been unlucky getting loot.

It doesn't have to be news, like talent trees aren't news. Blizzard implemented a lot of things to go back on it later on. WoW had borrowed power, now it doesn't. It had a lot of systems, now it doesn't. Soul Swap was reworked into a new spell, but is returning to an older iteration soon. What's the argument?

You can be sure Blizzard has their reasons for implementing this.

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That s not how personal loot worked. The system picked at random players and those players got a loot from the possible loot the could get from the boss.

With group loot the system makes a boss drop a certain amount of items depending on how many people are in the raid and then the odd of getting an item depends on how many players can roll for it.

With group loot odds of getting an item depends on how many player can roll on it. With personal loot the amount of player that could have looted a specific item isn t a factor influencing the odd of you getting an item. With group loot a very lucky player can highroll and get one item per boss or more and a lot of players are bound to get nothing oer lockout. With PL you generally had 1 or 2 loots per lockouts.

Group loot and master loot sytem were asked for by guilds to have better agencies in loot repartition in static groups. With a static group group loot and personal loot amounts to the same and prevent applicants to get the best loot when they just joined the guild (if an item drop several time over the weeks for a static group, it reduces the amount of player who can roll on it). However in a pick up group you never run the content with the same players so you are still expecting to compete with other players for the same loot and it makesno sense to have master loot or group loot and they are mostly toxic systems.

But you could be equally lucky being picked at random by the system.

[Tech614]

I can get something at all from doing 3 hours of Mythic+ or PvP instead.

Literally just did M+ all day due to winter storm and only looted 3 items, 2 of which I already had at same or higher ilvl and 1 was an absolute garbo ring. Yea personal loot sure is amazing in M+ /s.

Raid loot has been way more rewarding this xpac than M+ loot. Not even close.

[Biomega]

Literally just did M+ all day due to winter storm and only looted 3 items, 2 of which I already had at same or higher ilvl and 1 was an absolute garbo ring. Yea personal loot sure is amazing in M+ /s.

And you think you'd have gotten more/better items from PL, or something?

[Tech614]

And you think you'd have gotten more/better items from PL, or something?

Your post makes no sense. You either read wrong or wrote wrong. Pretty much all of my gear is raid gear and crafted with over 100 M+ dungeons ran for the season so far. Loot in there is garbage and anyone hyping it up as some great alternative to raiding are full of it. If it was group loot at least I would be rolling on things that are actual upgrades when they happen instead of complete trash being handed to me with fake back end rolls.

In fact people relying on personal loot in M+ is probably a large reason why so many flat out suck in M+ to begin with. That will work out 2 months into the season I guess with all valor and 4 piece but right now people without raid gear are full carries.

[lordjust]

...
But you could be equally lucky being picked at random by the system.

With personal loot the chance to get loot is the same for every boss. A 1 in 5 chance for every boss to be picked by the system to get loot. So a raid with 8 bosses you'd get 1 item on avarage. You have one roll by the system to get loot and a second roll for which item.

With group loot theres a 1 in 20 or something chance that one item you can roll on drops in the first place and then a 1 in X chance to get a higher roll than everyone else who can roll on the item. So on avarage when everyone needs everything, you have a lower chance to get loot in the first place.

Over time when less and less people need items (or can't roll on items) your chance for the second roll increases but the chance for the first roll stays the same so on avarage you still have a lower chance to get items.

I'm interested to see what Blizzard will do because especially in LFR people are pissed. Did LFR to get the hand token and rolled need on everything for transmog and people were pissed because I got 2 items on every boss. Yes, they were dumb to roll greed on weapons they actually have need on (was the only person rolling need on 1h and 2h weapon from council) but Blizzard's smart group loot also doesn't work properly. I have the set shoulders and can still roll need on the token because their smart system only checks for the token and not the set item. Saw someone in a pug rolling need on set tokens just to try and sell them to the group.

For organized groups like in a guild, group loot is great but for pugs and LFR it sucks because it can be abused and on avarage you get less loot per lock-out.

[gutnbrg]

i agree group loot sucks, why did i just tank vault so a fury warrior could take the shield i needed?

[huth]

But it doesn't encourage the exact opposite, so where do you want to go with this? I'm literally experiencing exactly what I'm writing, and I enjoy it and same for my guildies and friends. All I can say if that's the case for you is too bad, sorry you've been unlucky getting loot.

I've been getting loot. I've also seen my raid get 2x 2 daggers from the same boss in two weeks with exactly 1 rogue who can use them, and he's Outlaw so he can't even use two. That's already 3 wasted drops at least 2 of which would not have happened with PL.

But that's not what i'm talking about to begin with. Group loot inherently encourages toxic behaviour, and we're already seeing it happen. That you are in your little bubble where you haven't encountered it yet is irrelevant to the point. Lying about it doesn't make you better, though.

We know the reasons for implementing this, but we also know that the damage it does far outweighs the minor benefits, and the only way to explain why they did it is them forgetting why they started using PL to begin with.

[fazaim]

I've been getting loot. I've also seen my raid get 2x 2 daggers from the same boss in two weeks with exactly 1 rogue who can use them, and he's Outlaw so he can't even use two. That's already 3 wasted drops at least 2 of which would not have happened with PL.

But that's not what i'm talking about to begin with. Group loot inherently encourages toxic behaviour, and we're already seeing it happen. That you are in your little bubble where you haven't encountered it yet is irrelevant to the point. Lying about it doesn't make you better, though.

We know the reasons for implementing this, but we also know that the damage it does far outweighs the minor benefits, and the only way to explain why they did it is them forgetting why they started using PL to begin with.

It's not irrelevant as you claim it's univerally how you describe it when I am experiencing the opposite, enjoying it and therefore defending their decision to reimplement it. Wasted drops aren't the issue at hand here either. Any item not needed is in that case a "wasted drop." Personal loot didn't take into regards if you had the item, needed the item or stats for that matter, which can miss and therefore be a wasted drop. A raid leader could then be encouraged to bring every class, if he feels loot can go wasted.
You don't provide much here. You make nothing but statements and they aren't convincing. Tell us how we're "already seeing it"?

[Lord Pebbleton]

In yesterday's raid, a guy won 3 tier pieces, a weapon and a trinket, all things I also rolled need for. Happe for him, but damn.

I have not felt this frustrated by the loot system in a long while. I don't care if it's basically the same thing as before. It feels bad, therefore I don't like it.

[Revamp Man]

2 resets with no loot now. It's working really well. I love boosting others for no reward! Seriously considering quitting raiding cause of this new loot system. I can get something at all from doing 3 hours of Mythic+ or PvP instead.

Oh it was really cool to see an Evoker only staff drop for a raid with no Evokers. Really good! Quality loot system. It's like being back in vanilla engaging with outdated backwards systems.

A raid with no evoker?? Sign me up because I absolutely hate the flying mechanic fuck ups but even pugging I can't get rid of them

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i agree group loot sucks, why did i just tank vault so a fury warrior could take the shield i needed?

Did you not roll need because if they were fury it became an off spec roll and the only way a prot would lose is if you rolled greed

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.

For organized groups like in a guild, group loot is great but for pugs and LFR it sucks because it can be abused and on avarage you get less loot per lock-out.

You can't abuse it
I might be wrong and loot spec might play a role but the system is literally built in a way that prevents roll scumming

[fazaim]

This is how it should be.

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Btw, I decided I will need on everything, not even look at what I roll on. Even if I have better. Even if it's a small upgrade. Even if I have set. Even if stats are bad for me. Even if an effect the item has doesn't work for my class. Why? Because I can, that is why. I'm an enchanter too so nothing gets wasted. Someone from my raid (that is on the exact loot table as me) got 5 loot pieces while I got none in a full raid, so I don't really care anymore, I'm gonna get SOMETHING next time. And don't imagine I am the only one who will do this.
I'll just equip the item after I win it, so I don't arouse suspicios if anyone checks.

I imagine you're in one of few who thinks like this. Incredibly childish.

[VinceVega]

I don't think there is an actual difference other than you seeing a roll.

There also was no "bad luck protection" with PL as far as i know.

People can click "main" but it is still devided in off and mainspec.

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I imagine you're in one of few who thinks like this. Incredibly childish.

Is it though`? I will only pass if i have something better AND have the transmog allready.
On my DH i roll on everything no matter too because of beign and entchanter.
In PL i would have gotten it to. That is how LFR/LFD is.

[Danuel]

I wonder. How many times ppl will wrote: "there is no differences between GL and PL". And other ppl will response: "in GL your group can get loot who no one can use"?

[huth]

Tell us how we're "already seeing it"?

I guess you missed how in this thread, people already say they're just going to roll need on everything without consideration for what it even is? Including people you personally respond to. Not to mention the reports of guild drama and other issues all down to the now visible roll decisions.

The reason you don't see it is because you refuse to look, not because it isn't happening. And your only counterexample so far has been "hasn't happened to me", which is, quite frankly, worthless.

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I wonder. How many times ppl will wrote: "there is no differences between GL and PL". And other ppl will response: "in GL your group can get loot who no one can use"?

Well, it actually does happen, though not quite in the way people think. The game only checks if a class is present, not how many of them. You could theoretically get, say, all tier tokens for one class set because a single member of that set is present in the raid. This renders a significant number of them useless.

The claim that there is no difference is false even without that, though.

[Squigglyo]

To add to some of the BS

Just rolled an 80 for an item.
So did someone else.
I did not get the item...



Sure sure, on Personal Loot, it might happen, technically.
But I would not know. And I would not feel shitty about losing a roll I litteraly didnt lose

[fazaim]

I guess you missed how in this thread, people already say they're just going to roll need on everything without consideration for what it even is? Including people you personally respond to. Not to mention the reports of guild drama and other issues all down to the now visible roll decisions.

The reason you don't see it is because you refuse to look, not because it isn't happening. And your only counterexample so far has been "hasn't happened to me", which is, quite frankly, worthless.

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Well, it actually does happen, though not quite in the way people think. The game only checks if a class is present, not how many of them. You could theoretically get, say, all tier tokens for one class set because a single member of that set is present in the raid. This renders a significant number of them useless.

The claim that there is no difference is false even without that, though.

I already acknowledged there will always be bad apples. The guy I responded to doubts his behavior is unormal, I think the opposite. I don't see that many childish players, luckily. I am having a great time these days and the community seems more content than in a long time. I pug with a group of friends, some of us have been lucky and some unlucky. I asked guild members about this topic, same situation for them but no particular critique to the system. However no one cries about the group loot. And I don't care if you think it's worthless. One of us is content, the other one is crying. And I am one who experiences the exact opposite of your claimed "facts."

[Mardux]

I guess you missed how in this thread, people already say they're just going to roll need on everything without consideration for what it even is? Including people you personally respond to. Not to mention the reports of guild drama and other issues all down to the now visible roll decisions.

The reason you don't see it is because you refuse to look, not because it isn't happening. And your only counterexample so far has been "hasn't happened to me", which is, quite frankly, worthless.

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Well, it actually does happen, though not quite in the way people think. The game only checks if a class is present, not how many of them. You could theoretically get, say, all tier tokens for one class set because a single member of that set is present in the raid. This renders a significant number of them useless.

The claim that there is no difference is false even without that, though.

Yeah, the game's current loot system doesn't check if a class is present....

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I don't think there is an actual difference other than you seeing a roll.

There also was no "bad luck protection" with PL as far as i know.

People can click "main" but it is still devided in off and mainspec.

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Is it though`? I will only pass if i have something better AND have the transmog allready.
On my DH i roll on everything no matter too because of beign and entchanter.
In PL i would have gotten it to. That is how LFR/LFD is.

And this is part of the problem with not having ML. There are people who are convinced that their transmog is more important than group progress.

[froschhure]

group loot = premade roll and trade secretly; either you involved, or not.. but admit it is bad design

[VinceVega]

Yeah, the game's current loot system doesn't check if a class is present....

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And this is part of the problem with not having ML. There are people who are convinced that their transmog is more important than group progress.

What group progress in LFR? I don't do that in "real" raiding.
I have nearly never seend anyone reroll their PL inf LFR. 99% of people kept it no matter what.

Also yes: after week 2-3 i only go lfr because of the transmog. By then i am far enough into heroic that i cannot get anything from lfr i really nedd for ilvl.

Premade raiding should be ML with loot council anyway so the right person gets it