Are trolls the greatest race of hunters?

[DatToffer]

No it means the opposite actually. Only going for what you need to survive is a good thing. Besides their skin and meat they should not be killed for sports like Hemet and his son do.

Oh cool, I misread then. Yeah, on that point the night elves are very aware of the balance of nature when going to hunt.

One reason I put taurens up there was also that hunting is part of their culture, it's not just a mean to an end like most races. They celebrate it, codify it, turns it into myths, etc.

We could also put the night fae as great hunters since... They defenders are a faction called the Wild Hunt and they are joined by the spirits of hunters and predators since the beginning of life and death !

[Combatbutler]

The Troll Wars occur well before the Zandalari (at least Zul's detachment of them) exhorted the Gurubashi and Amani to return to war. Mentioned specifically:

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/The..._Quel%27Thalas

The stubborn elves, unwilling to give up their new land, utilized the magics which they had gleaned from the Well of Eternity and kept the savage trolls at bay. Under Dath'Remar's leadership, they were able to defeat the Amani warbands that outnumbered them ten to one.
Some elves, wary of the Kaldorei's ancient warnings, felt that their use of magic might possibly draw the attention of the banished Burning Legion. Therefore, they decided to mask their lands within a protective barrier which would still allow them to work their enchantments. They constructed a series of monolithic Runestones at various points around Quel'Thalas which marked the boundaries of the magic barrier. The Runestones not only masked the elves' magic from extra-dimensional threats, but helped to frighten away the superstitious troll warbands as well.

As time wore on, Quel'Thalas became a shining monument to the high elves' efforts and magical prowess. Its beauteous palaces were crafted in the same architectural style as the ancient halls of Kalimdor, yet they were interwoven with the natural topography of the land. Quel'Thalas had become the shining jewel that the elves had longed to create. The Convocation of Silvermoon was founded as the ruling power over Quel'Thalas, though the Sunstrider Dynasty maintained a modicum of political power. Comprised of seven of the greatest high elf lords, the Convocation worked to secure the safety of the elven lands and people. Surrounded by their protective barrier, the high elves remained unmoved by the old warnings of the Kaldorei and continued to use magic flagrantly in almost all aspects of their lives.

For nearly four thousand years the high elves lived peacefully within the secluded safety of their kingdom. Nevertheless, the vindictive trolls were not so easily defeated. They plotted and schemed in the depths of the forests and waited for the numbers of their warbands to grow. Finally, a mighty troll army charged out from the shadowy forests and once again laid siege to the shining spires of Quel'Thalas.

After that the Troll wars, which involves the humans actually begin. They had millennia of peace in between

[Gurahk]

Certainly better than their devolved cousins, that's for sure.

[Combatbutler]

The Darkspear had to save the orcs from dying of hunger by teaching them to hunt
Other than that, I'd say Trolls are overall great hunters, together with Tauren.

It's hard to say which race is best at what right now, considering they mostly blend together

But Trolls are easily in the top 3. They've been using Bows and Throwing weapons for millenia, they revere the loa and the Zandalari live among them.

Trolls in general have very astute senses, good eyesight and hearing, they are are very resilient and adaptive. All of these are very important skills for hunters and put them above, almost all other races in terms of senses alone.

[Grazrug]

Oh cool, I misread then. Yeah, on that point the night elves are very aware of the balance of nature when going to hunt.

One reason I put taurens up there was also that hunting is part of their culture, it's not just a mean to an end like most races. They celebrate it, codify it, turns it into myths, etc.

We could also put the night fae as great hunters since... They defenders are a faction called the Wild Hunt and they are joined by the spirits of hunters and predators since the beginning of life and death !

I just finished reading the Eyes of the Earth Mother. Amazing story. Shows alot of tauren culture.

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The Darkspear had to save the orcs from dying of hunger by teaching them to hunt
Other than that, I'd say Trolls are overall great hunters, together with Tauren.

It's hard to say which race is best at what right now, considering they mostly blend together

But Trolls are easily in the top 3. They've been using Bows and Throwing weapons for millenia, they revere the loa and the Zandalari live among them.

Do you have a source for that? I am sure the Orcs already knew how to hunt considering lots of their clans like the Thunderlrods did it on Draenor before it went boom.

[Aucald]

Last I checked, weren't the Amani hiding like snivelling cowards when Arthas and the Scourge invaded the region? At least the High elves tried to make a stand and they were actually holding out the tide of Death, if not for Drathir's betrayal. And even then, they still fought so valiantly that they vexed and annoyed Arthas.

Then the Amani tried to mount an assault after the elves were slaughtered only to get blasted by the Sunwell's destruction. Then, in TBC proper, they tried to attack elven lands again (after cowardly hiding during the Scourge invasion and letting the undead slaughter the elves), only to fail to really accomplish anything of note, at which point the level 10-20 Blood elf PC attacked their towns and thwarted their plans.

Yes, I would say that it's not reductive at all to point out that the Amani are clowns, and I'm not sure why you are so shocked by this fair assessment. People have been pointing out since forever that trolls are just laughable loot pinata.

For a people that is supposedly the "best" at taming the wilds, you would expect far more.

They do not even have any relevant bowman. Vol'jin was clearly not a bowman. All the famous archers from Warcraft lore come from elves races. Tyrande, Shandris, Alleria, Sylvanas, Vereesa, and so on. Another famous hunter, Nathanos, was literally taught by Sylvanas herself.

I think the main issue is your projection that the Amani were "hiding like sniveling cowards" while the Scourge blithely steamrolled the High Elves like an out-of-control pavement spreader. Do you think the Amani would come to the High Elves' aid for some reason when their lands were neither threatened nor the target of Arthas' march? Sure, the Amani took advantage of the now Blood Elves' diminished capacity and renewed hostilities, but those were really only a handful of skirmishes as they tried to regain neighboring territories (as one would expect when the status quo changes). Nothing is necessarily cowardly about that, it's actually pretty understandable given the sad state of the Amani following the outcome of the Troll Wars.

And as I said in our first exchange, the Amani don't tend to use archers - they employ thrown axes and spears.

They do not even have an equivalent of the Ranger-General to lead their ranger divisions, instead they have to petition the king himself for aid.

Most minor towns don't have equivalents of a Ranger-General at their disposal.

I remain calm in all things. I just find it funny how you think Kul Tiras (one kingdom) being the size of an entire subcontinent of multiple kingdoms makes more sense than Kul Tiras (one kingdom) being roughly the size of the average human kingdom (i.e. any kingdom that is not Lordaeron and Stormwind).

Could've fooled me. Also, why would it be "funny" how an island nation could be larger than a subcontinent? Australia is a lot larger than the UK, and while that's an extreme example, it's not the only island nation that has that distinction either (e.g. New Guinea, Borneo, Madagascar, Sumatra, etc.) Assuming a nation is tiny because it's an island or an isle doesn't make sense.

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After that the Troll wars, which involves the humans actually begin. They had millennia of peace in between

Seems like a distinction without a difference - the elves defeated the trolls for a time, then the trolls eventually redoubled their efforts and nearly put an end to Silvermoon itself. I doubt the intervening years were entirely conflict-free, either; the conflict just didn't heat up to the point of being a true war until thousands of years later. The very notion that the High Elves had a "kill on sight" policy following the founding of Silvermoon implies hostilities were still a thing.

[Combatbutler]

Could've fooled me. Also, why would it be "funny" how an island nation could be larger than a subcontinent? Australia is a lot larger than the UK, and while that's an extreme example, it's not the only island nation that has that distinction either (e.g. New Guinea, Borneo, Madagascar, Sumatra, etc.) Assuming a nation is tiny because it's an island or an isle doesn't make sense.

Kul'tiras is not australia though, nor is it massive, its ingame scale is just very off.

[DatToffer]

Do you have a source for that? I am sure the Orcs already knew how to hunt considering lots of their clans like the Thunderlrods did it on Draenor before it went boom.

I mentioned that too earlier. I remember it at least from the vanilla flavor text of the troll hunter trainer in the noob valley.

[Combatbutler]

Seems like a distinction without a difference - the elves defeated the trolls for a time, then the trolls eventually redoubled their efforts and nearly put an end to Silvermoon itself. I doubt the intervening years were entirely conflict-free, either; the conflict just didn't heat up to the point of being a true war until thousands of years later. The very notion that the High Elves had a "kill on sight" policy following the founding of Silvermoon implies hostilities were still a thing.

Yes but the Zandalari intervention is the point at which the amani get the actual power to threaten Quel'thalas, skirmishes are a far cry from existential dread. For several thousand of years the amani simply lacked the means to destroy the elves.

4k years of peace are a hell of a difference, since it is a fair bit longer than the entire span of human relevancy in the warcraft universe.

But lets stop this, since this is not the thread about this.

[Aucald]

Kul'tiras is not australia though, nor is it massive, its ingame scale is just very off.

As I said, the Australia comparison is extreme, but that's to underline the point that "island nation" doesn't mean tiny. There's an open question as to which scale is truly canon, as well - since the in-game scale is often minimized for gameplay purposes, meaning that it would be even larger than we see in-game (e.g. the depictions of the massive scope of Silvermoon City). A 2D map is not going to give anyone the full picture of true scale either way.

[Maljinwo]

Do you have a source for that? I am sure the Orcs already knew how to hunt considering lots of their clans like the Thunderlrods did it on Draenor before it went boom.

The quest was The Horde is Family, during Pandaria. When Thrall rides to the Echo Isles, he shares stories of Vol'jin with the player:

Thrall says: I remember when Vol'jin and I first came to this land. The Horde was just an idea then. A hope. We needed one another.
Thrall says: We made our home in this desert, and named it after my father Durotan, Chieftain of the Frostwolf Clan.
Thrall says: The land was harsh. Time and again it was Vol'jin and his people who ensured the Horde's survival, saving us from starvation, or taking up arms when we were attacked.
Thrall says: Trolls and orcs have fought together. Died together. We are family. And family looks after its own.

However, I can't find the bit about them teaching the orcs. Seems I mixed up things with the RPG where it was said the Forest Trolls taught them. But considering the RPG is non canon, I don't think this is the case

For now at least

[Grazrug]

The quest was The Horde is Family, during Pandaria. When Thrall rides to the Echo Isles, he shares stories of Vol'jin with the player:



However, I can't find the bit about them teaching the orcs. Seems I mixed up things with the RPG where it was said the Forest Trolls taught them. But considering the RPG is non canon, I don't think this is the case

For now at least

Alright thanks for this. I am mad over half the clans of the old Horde went extinct. They had so much culture. Especially the Thunderlord and Shadowmoon Clan.

[Aucald]

The quest was The Horde is Family, during Pandaria. When Thrall rides to the Echo Isles, he shares stories of Vol'jin with the player:

However, I can't find the bit about them teaching the orcs. Seems I mixed up things with the RPG where it was said the Forest Trolls taught them. But considering the RPG is non canon, I don't think this is the case

For now at least

This might be a reference to WC3: TFT's "Founding of Durotar" bonus campaign, where Rexxar and the Shadow Hunter Rokhan go on assorted adventures to assist in the founding of Durotar and the construction of Orgrimmar itself. I do remember a few of the random quests you do are about securing food, curative herbs, and making the land ready for settlement. Vol'jin, Thrall, Gazlowe, and other Horde heroes serve as quest-givers.

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Alright thanks for this. I am mad over half the clans of the old Horde went extinct. They had so much culture. Especially the Thunderlord and Shadowmoon Clan.

The MU Thunderlords are still extant to some degree, Erak the Aloof appears in BfA and isn't one of the Mag'har from AU Draenor as evidenced by his green skin. The fates of two prominent Thunderlords, their chieftain Fenris Wolfbrother and his second Malgrim Stormhand are also unknown. They and a handful of Thunderlords may have survived the destruction of Draenor and still live in seclusion somewhere on Azeroth (or even another planet entirely given the portal disruptions prior to Draenor's shattering).

[Grazrug]

This might be a reference to WC3: TFT's "Founding of Durotar" bonus campaign, where Rexxar and the Shadow Hunter Rokhan go on assorted adventures to assist in the founding of Durotar and the construction of Orgrimmar itself. I do remember a few of the random quests you do are about securing food, curative herbs, and making the land ready for settlement. Vol'jin, Thrall, Gazlowe, and other Horde heroes serve as quest-givers.

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The MU Thunderlords are still extant to some degree, Erak the Aloof appears in BfA and isn't one of the Mag'har from AU Draenor as evidenced by his green skin. The fates of two prominent Thunderlords, their chieftain Fenris Wolfbrother and his second Malgrim Stormhand are also unknown. They and a handful of Thunderlords may have survived the destruction of Draenor and still live in seclusion somewhere on Azeroth (or even another planet entirely given the portal disruptions prior to Draenor's shattering).

Shadowmoon was all about mysticism. Thunderlords were the best hunters. I pray some of them might appear one day and that not all of them had been killed. I wonder what would have happened if Ner'zhul and not Thrall had led the new Horde to their future.

[Aucald]

Shadowmoon was all about mysticism. Thunderlords were the best hunters. I pray some of them might appear one day and that not all of them had been killed. I wonder what would have happened if Ner'zhul and not Thrall had led the new Horde to their future.

Given that MU Ner'zhul had been driven half-insane by the whispers from the Skull of Gul'dan before having to hand it over to Deathwing, that future probably wouldn't have gone down very well. Given what we learn about the MU Shadowmoon clan from the Shadowmoon Valley quests in TBC, it seems like the Shadowmoon weren't necessarily good-aligned, either, even before the corruption of the clans due to the Legion.

[Grazrug]

Given that MU Ner'zhul had been driven half-insane by the whispers from the Skull of Gul'dan before having to hand it over to Deathwing, that future probably wouldn't have gone down very well. Given what we learn about the MU Shadowmoon clan from the Shadowmoon Valley quests in TBC, it seems like the Shadowmoon weren't necessarily good-aligned, either, even before the corruption of the clans due to the Legion.

The wiki says most of them joined the Fel Horde like most of the survivors of the Draenor Horde did.

[Aucald]

The wiki says most of them joined the Fel Horde like most of the survivors of the Draenor Horde did.

Ner'zhul's inner circle was cast out into the Twisting Nether and got turned into Liches when Ner'zhul became the Lich King. Those remaining either died or joined the Fel Horde later, and you can see Shadowmoon NPCs in the Blood Furnace alongside the presumed interim Shadowman chieftain after Ner'zhul, Keli'dan (as Teron'gor was imprisoned for the majority of TBC).

[Grazrug]

Ner'zhul's inner circle was cast out into the Twisting Nether and got turned into Liches when Ner'zhul became the Lich King. Those remaining either died or joined the Fel Horde later, and you can see Shadowmoon NPCs in the Blood Furnace alongside the presumed interim Shadowman chieftain after Ner'zhul, Keli'dan (as Teron'gor was imprisoned for the majority of TBC).

Well back to hunters. I would rank it this way:

1. Trolls
2. elves
3. Tauren
4. Orcs
5. maybe the Maruuk centaur? I wouldn't put either dwarfs nor humans in the top 5 because they have no distinct hunter culture as far as we can see considering they are agricultural and not gatherers.

[Ielenia]

I think this discussion about which race is the "greatest race of hunters" is doomed to fail for one reason, and one reason alone: it hasn't been defined what exactly are the qualifiers to be considered a "great hunter race":
• Does being the first race to ever hunt make the greatest race of hunters?
• Does killing beasts at a rapid pace make you the greatest race of hunters?
• Does going for the largest and most powerful beasts make you the greatest race of hunters?
• Does hunting while still keeping balance within nature the greatest race of hunters?
• Does having the most hunters per capita in your population make you the greatest race of hunters?

In other words, everyone's using their own subjective take of what makes "the greatest race of hunters".

[DatToffer]

1.Taurens
2.Maruuk centaurs
3.Trolls
4.Elves

Sorry but if you don't have half of your questlines dedicated to hunting, you can't pretend to be one of the best.

However, I can't find the bit about them teaching the orcs. Seems I mixed up things with the RPG where it was said the Forest Trolls taught them.

Found it. It was on the quest of the old parchment you receive as a troll hunter in vanilla : https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Etched_Tablet_(quest)

"Da Horde turned to us when they be just strugglin' to survive on Azeroth, and they ask us to teach them, to show them the secrets of many tings. They were strong already: strong in shaman ways; strong in warrior ways. But the hunter path not be their path... then.

Now we teach them those things, and they teach us others. We become one race... almost. We be allies for long time now. So you remember to help them. And Jen'shan remember to help you."