[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Biomega]

Cannot unsee Brad Pitt.

Why do this to me.

[Shadowferal]

Cannot unsee Brad Pitt. Why do this to me.

My first thought as well.
So...I spread my annoyance.

[Syegfryed]

This is why the illuminaty council in MoM is complete garbage, a man that has spent his life staying mute, his first reaction is to speak when his mouth is erased... Reed goes in without any artificial distraction or paralysis/shield/ etc. technology to support him then chooses reasonning with Wanda instead of trickery, Xavier doesn't even try to freeze Wanda. There wasn't an ounce of true intelligence in that scene. Like there wasn't anything coherent about Wanda's powers as well. She can make Reed body shred and head explode but cannot blow up Captain Brexit jetpack? She cannot make Captain Marvel go mad just by looking at her? is there a rulebook that we were supposed to be handled before viewing the movie?

Said the same thing before, or when she blows up Reed and Black bolt and the two captains do shit about it, and some ~~comics experts~~ were trying to say its completely obvious and fair reaction, someone in shock, when they should be used to this kind of stuff and would act on it, just like Reed did.

That scene was fucking awful made to look cool without taking account the heroes fighting it, a common problem of those movies since marvel bring in people without experience in comics or super hero/fantasy shit, and do a scrip in a month with reshots.

There is a lot of problems in that movie that could be fixed if they had actual time to proper develop a good scrip, the "memory store" its one of the most dumbass ways to move the plot forward/add the character backstory.

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Were they? How do you know?

That's a pretty bold claim, you must have some exceptional evidence to back it up.

They were aware of the scarlet which when Strange tried to explain the situation, they even knew she could sleepwalk, and if the witch did, they would be ready.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

One issue I did have in the movie is her giving her dad a hard time. This guy saved not only half the planet but half the universe, let the man rest.

She's a crusading teenager and her father is a Superhero... "let the man rest" isn't really going to be a big part of her worldview.

[Surfd]

Said the same thing before, or when she blows up Reed and Black bolt and the two captains do shit about it, and some ~~comics experts~~ were trying to say its completely obvious and fair reaction, someone in shock, when they should be used to this kind of stuff and would act on it, just like Reed did.

That scene was fucking awful made to look cool without taking account the heroes fighting it, a common problem of those movies since marvel bring in people without experience in comics or super hero/fantasy shit, and do a scrip in a month with reshots.

We've explained this already: That scene was done the way it was done for cinematic purposes. For dramatic effect. It has nothing at all to do with "these people don't know how to write superheroes" (which, btw, is a fucking laughable take regarding the screenwriters of basically the single biggest comics movie franchise in the history of cimema....)

We were given several seconds of focus on both Black Bolt and Reed biting it so that we could actually SEE it happen. So we could fully take it in. Trying to shoot the entire thing as "everyone bursts into action the instant she looks at Black Bolt funny" would have been a chaotic garbage mess to try to follow on screen. I guarantee you, while it probably sounds great to you in your head, it just wouldn't translate well onto the screen.

[Syegfryed]

We've explained this already: That scene was done the way it was done for cinematic purposes. For dramatic effect. It has nothing at all to do with "these people don't know how to write superheroes"

And i explained to you many times that it does not matter the intent, it was still garbage and not well done. If you make something stupid and ignore the heroes in the scene just for show and dramatic effect if fucks up the suspension of disbelief and break immersion.

It has to do with how write superheroes because they would understand their strength and weakness and would adapt the scrip on then, and not adapt then to the scrip.

(which, btw, is a fucking laughable take regarding the screenwriters of basically the single biggest comics movie franchise in the history of cimema....)

And what is that supposed to mean.

We were given several seconds of focus on both Black Bolt and Reed biting it so that we could actually SEE it happen. So we could fully take it in. Trying to shoot the entire thing as "everyone bursts into action the instant she looks at Black Bolt funny" would have been a chaotic garbage mess to try to follow on screen. I guarantee you, while it probably sounds great to you in your head, it just wouldn't translate well onto the screen.

Oh, you can guarantee, can you, what proofs do you have?

Like i said, adapt the scrip based on the heroes, not dumb down the heroes because the weak script, a single explosion from captain marvel and Wanda would be able to scatter then and make a better action scene than they standing around like dumbasses while they friends die, thats kinda of shit amateurs do.

[Endus]

We've explained this already: That scene was done the way it was done for cinematic purposes. For dramatic effect. It has nothing at all to do with "these people don't know how to write superheroes" (which, btw, is a fucking laughable take regarding the screenwriters of basically the single biggest comics movie franchise in the history of cimema....)

We were given several seconds of focus on both Black Bolt and Reed biting it so that we could actually SEE it happen. So we could fully take it in. Trying to shoot the entire thing as "everyone bursts into action the instant she looks at Black Bolt funny" would have been a chaotic garbage mess to try to follow on screen. I guarantee you, while it probably sounds great to you in your head, it just wouldn't translate well onto the screen.

See also how characters almost never speak over each other in most films, even though that happens constantly in the real world. There are almost no hesitations, no "umms" or "uhhs" as the character hunts for the word, which anyone but experienced public speakers usually insert naturally into conversation. Not unless the writers deliberately insert them for a specific scene/effect. There's stylized dialogue, like Tarantino's usually is, but then there's "realistic" dialogue, which is what the MCU largely has, where you don't get those kinds of things; despite the name, it's a "heightened realism"; it's meant to feel realistic to the audience, not be realistic, which often comes off as a flub by the actor(s). You can find examples of such natural dialogue in some films, but it's not particularly common; the last example that springs to mind is Marriage Story with Adam Driver and Scarlet Johanssen.

Film is about communicating the scene to the audience, not simulating reality.

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And i explained to you many times that it does not matter the intent, it was still garbage and not well done. If you make something stupid and ignore the heroes in the scene just for show and dramatic effect if fucks up the suspension of disbelief and break immersion.

It has to do with how write superheroes because they would understand their strength and weakness and would adapt the scrip on then, and not adapt then to the scrip.

And, again, what we saw on screen is absolutely in-line with the prime versions. They are, none of them, anywhere near the power scale of Wanda Maximoff. Her annihilating them out of hand is entirely how that should've played out, considering everyone's strengths and weaknesses.

I don't get what your argument here even is. Reed's smart about everything but magic, and the rest were basically just physical threats, and Wanda's strength in that respect was appropriately shown.

It's literally the point of the scene. It doesn't matter if you don't like it.

Seriously; read the House of M arc. You're wildly underestimating Wanda's actual power level. She's more powerful than the Phoenix Force, given that she's pretty trivially beaten that, too. Literally just wiped it out of Scott Summers at one point, about as easily as we see her beat the Illuminati here. The Illuminati aren't the strongest heroes around. Never have been. Nothing about your argument here makes sense.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Seriously; read the House of M arc. You're wildly underestimating Wanda's actual power level. She's more powerful than the Phoenix Force, given that she's pretty trivially beaten that, too. Literally just wiped it out of Scott Summers at one point, about as easily as we see her beat the Illuminati here. The Illuminati aren't the strongest heroes around. Never have been. Nothing about your argument here makes sense.

Hell, even just Avengers: Disassembled has her pretty much trivialize an entire Avengers team.

And Strange's little monologue about her applies pretty well to the MCU version

[MrLachyG]

And i explained to you many times that it does not matter the intent, it was still garbage and not well done. If you make something stupid and ignore the heroes in the scene just for show and dramatic effect if fucks up the suspension of disbelief and break immersion.

It has to do with how write superheroes because they would understand their strength and weakness and would adapt the scrip on then, and not adapt then to the scrip.

you're watching a FICTIONAL MOVIE ABOUT SUPERHEROES! what part of that do you not understand.

do you not watch television or movies at all? EVERY SINGLE MOVIE AND TV SHOW is like that, nothing about it reflects real life at all. Literally everything breaks the suspension of disbelief, from talking animals to action heroes who would've died 10 seconds in living through gun shot wounds, exploding glass etc, to comedy movies where the characters do the stupidest fucking shit instead of thinking rationally.

[Surfd]

And i explained to you many times that it does not matter the intent, it was still garbage and not well done. If you make something stupid and ignore the heroes in the scene just for show and dramatic effect if fucks up the suspension of disbelief and break immersion.

It has to do with how write superheroes because they would understand their strength and weakness and would adapt the scrip on then, and not adapt then to the scrip.

Like i said, adapt the scrip based on the heroes, not dumb down the heroes because the weak script, a single explosion from captain marvel and Wanda would be able to scatter then and make a better action scene than they standing around like dumbasses while they friends die, thats kinda of shit amateurs do.

Lol. I get it. You are somehow stuck on the idea that they didn't do the Illuminati "justice", and that this is somehow evidence of not being able to write superheroes or some other ridiculous personal opinion crap, and because you are so fixated on this, you are completely missing the forest for the trees: the Illuminati are not the focus here. They are cameos. Bit Parts. They exist for narrative exposition and to be a speedbump for Wanda. That's it. They aren't there to pose a challenge. They aren't there to take up more than a bare minimum of screen time as she slaps the shit out of them.

The people writing the script DO understand the strengths and weaknesses of the characters they are writing, it's just that Wanda is focus of the scene. Not the Illuminati, and they understand that she is strong enough to steamroll them.

Like, it's honestly mindboggling that you can somehow make the argument that because of your deep knowledge of how these characters "should act" (despite being provided with numerous examples of them literally acting exactly the way they did in the movie) that they should have put up more of a fight, while simultaneously ignoring that anyone with a comic book understanding of what exactly was heading their way would have seen the outcome coming from a mile away.

It breaks YOUR immersion because you are expecting way too much from the scene and expecting way too much focus to be put on the Illuminati (the cannon fodder horror victims) while ignoring that Wanda (the Horror Movie Monster) is the star of the show here. It had no impact on MY immersion because the scene played out pretty much exactly how I would have expected it to play out given everything involved.

[Skildar]

Were they? How do you know?

That's a pretty bold claim, you must have some exceptional evidence to back it up.

it's a line from the movie. One of the member of the council states that they can handle the witch if she decides to dreamwalk meaning that they know of the scale of power wanda can have using the darkhold. Like Surfd pointed out, maybe not scarlet witch darkhold but the way they interact with wanda doesn't even feel serious enough for darkhold wanda

[MrLachyG]

it's a line from the movie. One of the member of the council states that they can handle the witch if she decides to dreamwalk meaning that they know of the scale of power wanda can have using the darkhold. Like Surfd pointed out, maybe not scarlet witch darkhold but the way they interact with wanda doesn't even feel serious enough for darkhold wanda

I mean Wanda exists in their universe, they probably fought side by side at one point too.

[Biomega]

it's a line from the movie. One of the member of the council states that they can handle the witch if she decides to dreamwalk meaning that they know of the scale of power wanda can have using the darkhold. Like Surfd pointed out, maybe not scarlet witch darkhold but the way they interact with wanda doesn't even feel serious enough for darkhold wanda

That doesn't prove they can handle her.

That proves THEY THINK they can handle her. Which is then shown to be false, as they clearly can't.

That's my point.

[Polybius]

And i explained to you many times that it does not matter the intent, it was still garbage and not well done. If you make something stupid and ignore the heroes in the scene just for show and dramatic effect if fucks up the suspension of disbelief and break immersion.

It has to do with how write superheroes because they would understand their strength and weakness and would adapt the scrip on then, and not adapt then to the scrip.


And what is that supposed to mean.




Oh, you can guarantee, can you, what proofs do you have?

Like i said, adapt the scrip based on the heroes, not dumb down the heroes because the weak script, a single explosion from captain marvel and Wanda would be able to scatter then and make a better action scene than they standing around like dumbasses while they friends die, thats kinda of shit amateurs do.

Tbf that scene wasn’t done for dramatic effect as they said but because they filmed the actors separately during the pandemic. You can tell by the look of their eyes and how out of sync their reactions are to the deaths.

[Skildar]

The people writing the script DO understand the strengths and weaknesses of the characters they are writing, it's just that Wanda is focus of the scene. Not the Illuminati, and they understand that she is strong enough to steamroll them.

So to you it is ok to remove roadblock and basic thinking from some characters in order to move the scenario in the direction that you want. That is just very bland and weak storytelling.

It breaks YOUR immersion because you are expecting way too much from the scene and expecting way too much focus to be put on the Illuminati (the cannon fodder horror victims) while ignoring that Wanda (the Horror Movie Monster) is the star of the show here. It had no impact on MY immersion because the scene played out pretty much exactly how I would have expected it to play out given everything involved.

It's no uncommon for the movies to do things differently from the comics and/or play on it. One important outcome of the fight that they wanted in the movie was that scarlet witch comes out of it injured, I'm pretty convinced that they could have done better with it. And again I still don't get why she can't just heal herself... she can rewrite reality on a whim but not heal a broken leg?

This movie was very bad, I'm not even sure if it's worth all this "debate". I honestly wanted to just share my view on what intelligence is in a fictional piece. I'm glad some of you taught me a bit more about how things are run in the comics and some character traits.

I'm a bit lost on why the interpretation that everyone has of Reed is that because magic doesn't have well defined rules, he is weak to it. It makes little sense to me as magic actually has at least one rule, it comes from the imagination of a person, that person has a psyche, which is define by chemistry. However you want to put things Reed should understand and be on known battlefield dealing with a character's mental strength and weaknesses. That is what you can expect Adrian Veidt to do in Watchmen in which he also bears the title of most intelligent man alive.

[Surfd]

I mean Wanda exists in their universe, they probably fought side by side at one point too.

Maybe, maybe not. We do know she exists in their universe (she's the body 616 Wanda is possessing), but pretty much everything we saw about her in their world seemed to indicate she was living a pretty normal domestic family life. When 616 Wanda took over 838 Wanda, there was basically no indication that 838 fought back or resisted like you would expect if she was a "powered" version of Wanda.

And even if we assume that the alternate Wanda she confronts at the end of the movie in the final scene (who we see with the the telltale red-hand-glow that indicates that at least that Wanda had powers) is the 838 Wanda (which we can't be sure of, but I am fairly certain is not), she still basically magically manhandles that other-Wanda like a kid tossing around dolls.

[Skildar]

That doesn't prove they can handle her.

That proves THEY THINK they can handle her. Which is then shown to be false, as they clearly can't.

That's my point.

That's what I was saying but you got focused on the word "knew" as if not related to their subjective state. Don't be like that on forum where it is admitted that english is not everyone's mother tongue please.

[Biomega]

That's what I was saying but you got focused on the word "knew" as if not related to their subjective state. Don't be like that on forum where it is admitted that english is not everyone's mother tongue please.

I can't go by what you think you mean, only by what you say.

English isn't my first language, either. Or second.

I responded to what you said. That's all I can do.

[Surfd]

I'm a bit lost on why the interpretation that everyone has of Reed is that because magic doesn't have well defined rules, he is weak to it. It makes little sense to me as magic actually has at least one rule, it comes from the imagination of a person, that person has a psyche, which is define by chemistry. However you want to put things Reed should understand and be on known battlefield dealing with a character's mental strength and weaknesses. That is what you can expect Adrian Veidt to do in Watchmen in which he also bears the title of most intelligent man alive.

It's because Reed is basically a numbers guy. A devotee of the idea that everything is a math problem to be solved. I mean, this is the guy who they wrote a massive comic arc around based on him actualizing the scientific formula for the theory of "psychohistory" as proposed by Asimov in the Foundation series. He goes straight up super-geek-science-recluse to literally attempt to solve the nature of human / superhuman development with a math equation.

Magic is basically Reed's antithesis: It's a loosely based structure of rules that can end up having different results entirely depending on who's reading the equation.

To Reed, X+Y always = Z. To a magician, X + Y = Cat, while another magician might do the exact same magical incantation and get X + Y = Carrot, because magic operates on personal willpower, desire and feeling just as much as it operates on the rules and formula's required to gather and shape power. Magic is a type of Abstract construct that Reed is basically just not wired properly to understand.

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Tbf that scene wasn’t done for dramatic effect as they said but because they filmed the actors separately during the pandemic. You can tell by the look of their eyes and how out of sync their reactions are to the deaths.

100% not likely. That kind of thing would have been trivially easy to fix in post production (if it even made it that far to begin with). Like, come on, seriously? Even if they shot every one of their scenes separately, you think they are going to get the reaction timing wrong when inserting them into the scene? When they literally have full control over how they would be inserted into the scene? Not likely.

[Syegfryed]

And, again, what we saw on screen is absolutely in-line with the prime versions.

You can try to salvage this with nonsense all you want, you are telling me some battle trainned people would just stand there and watch their friends die is bogus and delusional,

it was bad, does not matter how much you liked.

And before any babbling about her powers, she was dreamwalking, she was not as her full strenght