[Movie/TV/Comic] Marvel Cinematic Universe: A place to talk all things Marvel

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And if said idiots think some guy being shot during a war is the same as a big superhero being turned into string cheese before their eyes,

Even ignoring the super natural elements, soldiers froze in WW1 all the time even long serving one’s.

It’s well documented that tons of soldiers were reprimanded and even executed for such things due to mental health and breaks not being taken seriously and then just being treated and charged with cowardice.

not to mention the countless amount of people who come back from every war with PTSD which can lead to even things like fire works causing them to be triggered and freeze or face other ill effects.

[Skildar]

I love how you focus on the "two expert combatants froze" argument but not on the poor strategy and preparation one. It is time to move on, that scene was of bad quality, the fact that Xavier does not warn his mates or fight with them is nonsensical and just there to provide a scene inside Wanda's head. The writing is forced through and through.

But we are focusing our attention to a scene that is symptomatic of the whole movie. All dialogues except a couple are complete garbage that an amateur writer could have come up with. To the point where I'm picturing producers asking the performers to try and come up with zings and one liners to punctuate the script.

[Endus]

I love how you focus on the "two expert combatants froze" argument but not on the poor strategy and preparation one.

The one where they clearly had no idea what kind of threat this Wanda actually posed, and thus died due to their own arrogance and hubris (something that the Illuminati get stuffed in their faces on the regular, in the comics, I might add)?

Their strategy was appropriate to the threat they thought Wanda posed. They were just . . . wrong about that.

This is only a flaw in the writing if you're arguing that the Illuminati are both omniscient and infallible; that they know everything there is to know and cannot ever be wrong about anything. Neither of those are true of any iteration of the Marvel Illuminati.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I love how you focus on the "two expert combatants froze" argument but not on the poor strategy and preparation one. It is time to move on, that scene was of bad quality, the fact that Xavier does not warn his mates or fight with them is nonsensical and just there to provide a scene inside Wanda's head. The writing is forced through and through.

But we are focusing our attention to a scene that is symptomatic of the whole movie. All dialogues except a couple are complete garbage that an amateur writer could have come up with. To the point where I'm picturing producers asking the performers to try and come up with zings and one liners to punctuate the script.

There have been plenty of post about the poor strategy and preparation, how they are over confident, aren’t built to deal with some like the SW by the characters very nature, how some of there power likely couldn’t do much (Xavier), how even if they did prepare better it wouldn’t have mattered due to the power gap being so wide that they would be screwed no matter what, how the lack of strategy was done for narrative reasons, how it was shot for cinematic reasons, how they reacted similar to there comic counter parts, ect.

All of that has been ignored or dismissed continuously.

[Endus]

There have been plenty of post about the poor strategy and preparation, how they are over confident, aren’t built to deal with some like the SW by the characters very nature, how some of there power likely couldn’t do much (Xavier), how even if they did prepare better it wouldn’t have mattered due to the power gap being so wide that they would be screwed no matter what, how the lack of strategy was done for narrative reasons, how it was shot for cinematic reasons, how they reacted similar to there comic counter parts, ect.

All of that has been ignored or dismissed continuously.

People really don't realize that Wanda, as we see her in MoM (or in arcs like House of M in the comics) could have walked into Infinity War and ended the whole thing when Thanos lifted up his hand to snap and Wanda just casually says "what gauntlet?", and Thanos looks down at his now-empty hand and everyone dogpiles him.

That's the power level the Scarlet Witch at full power sits at. Able to casually rip the Phoenix Force out of its host. Able to completely reshape reality on a whim, with a whisper. She's literally the most powerful being we have seen in the MCU thus far, including Infinity-Gauntlet-wearing Thanos (though I admit that's a close call, and mostly comes down to Thanos being a dork who wants to be overly dramatic whereas Wanda just interrupts the monologuing with a win condition).

[Lorgar Aurelian]

People really don't realize that Wanda, as we see her in MoM (or in arcs like House of M in the comics) could have walked into Infinity War and ended the whole thing when Thanos lifted up his hand to snap and Wanda just casually says "what gauntlet?", and Thanos looks down at his now-empty hand and everyone dogpiles him.

That's the power level the Scarlet Witch at full power sits at. Able to casually rip the Phoenix Force out of its host. Able to completely reshape reality on a whim, with a whisper. She's literally the most powerful being we have seen in the MCU thus far, including Infinity-Gauntlet-wearing Thanos (though I admit that's a close call, and mostly comes down to Thanos being a dork who wants to be overly dramatic whereas Wanda just interrupts the monologuing with a win condition).

I think it’s just character bias personally.

I pointed out earlier that Reed killed the team in one universe without them even getting out of there seats and that was deemed as ok because he’s smart as if that’s some how above literally rewriting reality even though we have tons of comic examples of how it’s not.

[InfiniteCharger]

Not only is this just false the the Illuminati in secret wars (or the ones that live to save the multiverse) are Reed Namor and Black panther two of which aren't even part of the MOM team, they aren't even trying to be that team.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illumi...Other_versions

And you just made my point for me. The "Illuminati" in the comics, especially Black Panther, saw the threat of the incursions and took action to save the multiverse. That is the point of the Illuminati as a group to coordinate activities across multiple superhero teams to address threats more efficiently and it was Black Panther who reconvened them at the news of an incursion coming. And it was that prime earth black panther and other remaining prime earth heroes on a new battle world featuring multiple versions of various superheroes from different universes, that saved the multiverse.

https://youtu.be/fQ9Dv6xuCmY?t=3005
This pretty much sums up the story.

So having the "Illuminati" in MOM and them be totally inept and useless is a complete contradiction of everything the Illuminati was in the comics.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

And you just made my point for me. The "Illuminati" in the comics, especially Black Panther, saw the threat of the incursions and took action to save the multiverse. That is the point of the Illuminati as a group to coordinate activities across multiple superhero teams to address threats more efficiently and it was Black Panther who reconvened them at the news of an incursion coming. And it was that prime earth black panther and other remaining prime earth heroes on a new battle world featuring multiple versions of various superheroes from different universes, that saved the multiverse.

https://youtu.be/fQ9Dv6xuCmY?t=3005
This pretty much sums up the story.

So having the "Illuminati" in MOM and them be totally inept and useless is a complete contradiction of everything the Illuminati was in the comics.

The Illuminati in the comics is one of many as evident by the link and as the link shows many (most?) of them being inept and useless isn’t at all a contradiction.

Hell even the main 616 who could be said to be the most component only saved the multiverse because miles gave MM a ham burger and that gave Reed a chance vs doom , all there greatness and big brains would have done nothing without miles just being nice.

[Endus]

And you just made my point for me. The "Illuminati" in the comics, especially Black Panther, saw the threat of the incursions and took action to save the multiverse. That is the point of the Illuminati as a group to coordinate activities across multiple superhero teams to address threats more efficiently and it was Black Panther who reconvened them at the news of an incursion coming. And it was that prime earth black panther and other remaining prime earth heroes on a new battle world featuring multiple versions of various superheroes from different universes, that saved the multiverse.

https://youtu.be/fQ9Dv6xuCmY?t=3005
This pretty much sums up the story.

So having the "Illuminati" in MOM and them be totally inept and useless is a complete contradiction of everything the Illuminati was in the comics.

And that story's not the only story they're part of, and you're cherry-picking a relatively late story to boot; https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Illuminati_(Earth-616)

The Illuminati were, for instance, also fundamentally responsible for the events of World War Hulk. And when they first formed, Black Panther refused to join them, opposing the idea on principle, let alone being the guy who initiated it. It was their choices that led inevitably to the rise of Norman Osborn and the whole Dark Reign arc.

You're also willfully ignoring that later in the same incursion arc series, the Illuminati were themselves incursioning into other Earths and annihilating them.

Like, you're cherry-picking. Blatantly so. Take a grander view of the Illuminati's complete history, and your argument doesn't hold up at all.

[InfiniteCharger]

None of the Guardians no Black Panther were ever Avengers, dude. And while there's still a Black Widow and a Vision, neither are currently Avengers.

I know, I never said they were and that has nothing to do with my point which is the MCU was based around the Avengers and the Guardians were part of the Avengers effectively in the MCU.

Also, Steve Rogers isn't dead. Well, it's possible he's died off-screen without mention, but last we saw him he was still hale and hearty.

I agree but he is now old and cannot function as Captain America, so he passed on his shield which effectively means he is no longer on the Avengers team. So he may as well be dead.

The Avengers Initiative was sparked off by Fury but exists separate from SHIELD. When we last saw it, the remaining Avengers were testing new applicants themselves.

THe Avengers initiative was created by the Government using Shield as a super secret agency that provided support for the team. Shield was destroyed as a result of Hydra infiltrating it, which led to the creation of SWORD, which then was thrown in disarray due to the events of Wanda Vision. The Avengers headquarters is staffed and funded by the government with support from those other agencies. Who do you think built and maintained all those facilities? Therefore, the Avengers team and the other supporting government agencies in Shield and Sword are at this point no longer functioning. Individual characters from the team like Carol Danvers being in a post credit scene that has not been followed up on in any movie or television show is not really giving an update on the state of these organizations. What happened post End Game could have been a movie unto itself but they didn't do it because honestly I don't believe Marvel Studios has the roster of who is going to be in the Avengers team for Secret Wars.

By "so many key people", you literally just mean Natasha Romanoff and Tony Stark. Everyone else was either still alive, or had been un-Snapped by the end of Endgame.

Tony Stark, Gamora, Vision and Natasha Romanoff died in or before Endgame and were not unsnapped. Steve Rogers is no longer on the team because of old age. That is five members who exited in phase 3. Wanda went nuts and her status is currently unknown. That is 6. Black Panther died in battle and was replaced by his sister. That is 7. The point here is that after phase 3 the movies and TV shows have spent time showing more members dying or leaving, but no time showing what is being done to replace them. A post credit scene is not the same as having time in a film or television showing how the team is being rebuilt. And I believe part of the reason for that is because Marvel Studios is/was figuring out who is going to be on the team for Secret Wars.

Well, and some villains died. I didn't think you were talking about Thanos and his minions, though.

Irrelevant to the point of the MCU franchise being built around the Avengers. Thanos is an Avengers villain.

They're both alive in the current timeline, if a bit different. Vision's even literally the same body and the same memories as the original Vision.

We do not know what the status of white vision is because he left and has not been seen since. The story left him on a cliffhanger and Wanda's story is a literal cliff hanger. The point is that instead of answering questions about the status of these members and the Avengers as a whole phase 4 raised more questions and unknowns and is leaving them dangling. There is no coherent pattern to this story as revolving around the Avengers as a team which was the core of the first 3 phases.

Technically, between movies; he's dead before Wakanda Forever even starts. And he died from illness.

The point is he is dead in universe. The movie makes that abundantly clear. Again, they are spending time and effort showing characters dying or otherwise being incapacitated and not doing anything to show how the team is being rebuilt.

Literally none of the Guardians are, or ever were, Avengers. And they haven't died yet. Of course more characters will die over time.



Guardians of the Galaxy, for one. None of that team have ever been Avengers, even if they've fought alongside them. Same for Captain Marvel, if we can include her with the upcoming Marvels (since one film doesn't make a 'franchise'). Black Panther. But even beyond the never-were-Avengers folks, the individual stories in the Iron Man and Thor franchises aren't directly Avengers-related, even if there's undercurrents that eventually crop back up with regards to the Infinity Stones. The stories would stand on their own without those ties, though, because those films aren't about the Stones.

The Guardians were part of the Avengers or allies in the MCU. Again, the MCU story revolved around the Avengers revolved around that and the Guardians were very much part of that. What makes the Avengers mythos is that as a team, many of the individual characters are famous solo heroes on their own right separate from the team. And the Guardians very much fits into that for the purposes of the film as working together. Nick Fury and Shield also had their own stories and adventures in the comics separate from the Avengers. That is what the Avengers team is a roster of heroes and characters that often have their own separate individual stories and comics. Unlike the Fantastic Four whose backstories all originated together as part of the same team or similarly the X-Men who all emerged from the School for Mutants under professor Xavier, many of whom did not ever have stand alone titles. Every superhero team has different dynamics and the Avengers dynamic is big name characters with established backstories coming together to form a group starting with Captain America, Iron Man and Thor.

Because sure, there's these guys, like you said; https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Illuminati_(Earth-616)
But, let's see, there's also (and this is not a thorough list);
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Illuminati_(Earth-2319)
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Illuminati_(Earth-91126)
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Illuminati_(Earth-12131)
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Illuminati_(Earth-14515)
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Illuminati_(Earth-976)
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Illuminati_(Earth-231)
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Illuminati_(Earth-10022)
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Illuminati_(Earth-42409)
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Illuminati_(Earth-51271)
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Illuminati_(Earth-9200)
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Illuminati_(Earth-96662)
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Illuminati_(Earth-32201)

And I'll stop there at the end of the first search page because I think I've made my point.

Hell, there's even these guys, from Earth-616;
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Illum...7s)_(Earth-616)

You really want to double down on the idea that there's only the one Earth-616 iteration on the idea?

Fair point. The Illuminati "variants" were not the ones saving the multiverse was my point and most alternate versions of prime superheroes died.
The core focus of the comics has always been the prime universe characters with rare exceptions. Therefore, the main earth in the MCU does not have an illuminati because many of the characters on the team from the comics don't exist. And it is those other characters like Reed Richards from the FF4 and Professor Xavier from the X-Men that the people want to see in the main MCU universe, not as some variant other universe characters that are used for canon fodder.

[Endus]

Tony Stark, Gamora, Vision and Natasha Romanoff died in or before Endgame and were not unsnapped. Steve Rogers is no longer on the team because of old age. That is five members who exited in phase 3. Wanda went nuts and her status is currently unknown. That is 6. Black Panther died in battle and was replaced by his sister. That is 7. The point here is that after phase 3 the movies and TV shows have spent time showing more members dying or leaving, but no time showing what is being done to replace them. A post credit scene is not the same as having time in a film or television showing how the team is being rebuilt. And I believe part of the reason for that is because Marvel Studios is/was figuring out who is going to be on the team for Secret Wars.

Gamora and Vision weren't "unsnapped", but also aren't currently dead are are both active and running around and in no way out of the MCU. We have essentially no reason to believe Wanda is dead. T'Challa is dead, but he did not "die in battle", unless you count "battling with a fatal disease" but I doubt you would. Plus, you started by talking about characters who died in Endgame, and now you're moving goalposts.

We do not know what the status of white vision is because he left and has not been seen since. The story left him on a cliffhanger and Wanda's story is a literal cliff hanger. The point is that instead of answering questions about the status of these members and the Avengers as a whole phase 4 raised more questions and unknowns and is leaving them dangling. There is no coherent pattern to this story as revolving around the Avengers as a team which was the core of the first 3 phases.

There's a lot of pattern. Phase 4 was a combination introductions to new characters, and an exploration of the consequences of PTSD and grief and loss, often both at the same time. Spider-Man: NWH was deeply about grief and recovery; it's the core of the entire narrative reason the other two Spider-Men are there, and why this is where Tom Holland's "Uncle Ben" moment happens. MoM is entirely about Wanda's grief and the madness it drove her to. Thor: L&T is about Gorr's grief over his daughter, Thor and Jane's agony over her cancer, and Thor's general dysfunction in the aftermath of Endgame and losing Asgard. Wakanda Forever is about Shuri's grief over her brother and Namor's grief over his mother, and what each drove them to.

In the TV shows, Wandavision is the start of Wanda's grief cycle. Falcon and the Winter Soldier is two guys bonding over their grief and working through it together. Loki's a bit more vague, but he's essentially coming to terms with himself; it's not really about "grief" per se but it's still internally contemplative. Hawkeye is both an introduction to a new character (Kate Bishop), and Clint's grief and recovery.

The bits of Phase 4 I skipped are either new character intros or Black Widow, which I give a pass to because A> it should've been Phase 3, and B> it's a flashback to an earlier time, and C> it's literally the first film of Phase 4 and easing us into it, kinda by letting the audience grieve for Natasha Romanoff, in a sense.

Phase 4 is about grief and recovery. That's the coherent throughline. It's not a particular "fun" one, but it is an important one.

Edit: I haven't seen Quantumania yet and won't speak to it until I do.

Fair point. The Illuminati "variants" were not the ones saving the multiverse was my point and most alternate versions of prime superheroes died.
The core focus of the comics has always been the prime universe characters with rare exceptions. Therefore, the main earth in the MCU does not have an illuminati because many of the characters on the team from the comics don't exist. And it is those other characters like Reed Richards from the FF4 and Professor Xavier from the X-Men that the people want to see in the main MCU universe, not as some variant other universe characters that are used for canon fodder.

Literally nothing prevents us seeing those characters in the MCU. You just explained why the 838 characters being steamrolled is totally in-character for Marvel, as if that were an argument against their treatment. It isn't.

[Syegfryed]

I love how you focus on the "two expert combatants froze" argument but not on the poor strategy and preparation one. It is time to move on, that scene was of bad quality, the fact that Xavier does not warn his mates or fight with them is nonsensical and just there to provide a scene inside Wanda's head. The writing is forced through and through.

But we are focusing our attention to a scene that is symptomatic of the whole movie. All dialogues except a couple are complete garbage that an amateur writer could have come up with. To the point where I'm picturing producers asking the performers to try and come up with zings and one liners to punctuate the script.

ITs the fantastic four circlejerk of this side of the forum, always the same four being against common sense and people, just to defend some garbage movie/show, because they need to win artificial debateds they create, its to a point some can throw insults and the mods do shit about it.

Now the goalposts is shifting again, but they ignore how Reed did not froze, like a twat, unlike the two captains, and they want to compare then with SOME real world soldiers, after talking so much shit about "this is superhero movies!1!!!" its hypocrisy at is finest.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

and they want to compare then with SOME real world soldiers,

you are aware that it was you who first brought up real soldiers to compare to right? like I get that lacking self awareness is your thing but really come on.

Someone who fought world war 1 on the frontlines sure would stand like a dumbass and wait shit to unfold, for sure. And i love how you went right there, so predictable, almost like a open book.

[Syegfryed]

you are aware that it was you who first brought up real soldiers to compare to right? like I get that lacking self awareness is your thing but really come on.

someone like captain carter who fought a world war on the frontlines, yes, i was talking about HER, not other soldiers, but you need to distort shit to pretend you won an argument, classic

[Lorgar Aurelian]

someone like captain carter who fought a world war on the frontlines, yes, i was talking about HER, not other soldiers, but you need to distort shit to pretend you won an argument, classic

Carter didn't fight in WW1, If you meant WW2 sure fine but we can only go off what you actually post not what you mean.

[Aucald]

I don't really understand the critical reception to "Quantumania," I watched it last weekend and thought it was a pretty good movie. I'd heard a lot about how it was way too grimdark, it wasn't funny, etc. and I thought it was plenty funny. It is perhaps darker in tone than its two predecessor films, sure; but the gags and lighthearted banter were definitely still intact. I also missed Michael Peña's Luis much like everyone else, but I don't think he's 100% necessary to the integrity of any of the Ant-man films - great to see him and the recurring storytelling gag, but I don't think his absence tanked the film by any reasons. Jonathan Majors really stole the show as Kang, and I'm interested to see how his dynamic is set up and made comparable to Brolin's Thanos since much of Thanos' menace was provided with foreshadowing and subtle hints as the series unfolded whereas Kang's intro seems more direct, a bit more in your face so to speak. He and his variants definitely feel like a threat, and I don't think we've seen the last of the exiled Kang the Conqueror depicted in Quantumania, either.

All in all, I thought it was a solid 4/5. It had some rough edges, as all the MCU films do to varying degrees, but it seemed like a good start to Phase whatever number we're in at this point.

[InfiniteCharger]

Gamora and Vision weren't "unsnapped", but also aren't currently dead are are both active and running around and in no way out of the MCU. We have essentially no reason to believe Wanda is dead. T'Challa is dead, but he did not "die in battle", unless you count "battling with a fatal disease" but I doubt you would. Plus, you started by talking about characters who died in Endgame, and now you're moving goalposts.

Gamora from the first Guardians of the Galaxy film is dead, she was sacrificed by Thanos to get one of the infinity stones. The Gamora we see now is a variant from the past that came to the present with a variant of Thanos. That is not the same Gamora and it is made very clear in the films including the upcoming Guardians film. You just want to try and squeeze some kind of alternate reality out of the facts that nothing in phases 4 or 5 is showing a rebuilding of the Avengers. Everything is showing a continued destruction of the Avengers one by one. Wanda literally was underneath a collapsing mountain at the end of MOM, as a result of her madness and causing havoc in the multiverse. To act like her story arc is somehow going to allow her to just pop back up as part of the Avengers make no absolute sense. In order for that to happen, it would require time in film or in television showing how she gets redeemed some way. So effectively as of now, she is not on the team for all intents and purposes and neither is Vision because he actually died in Endgame and White Vision has not yet declared who or what he intends to be. Again, these are characters whose stories have taken a turn away from being part of the Avengers as part of phase 4.

There's a lot of pattern. Phase 4 was a combination introductions to new characters, and an exploration of the consequences of PTSD and grief and loss, often both at the same time. Spider-Man: NWH was deeply about grief and recovery; it's the core of the entire narrative reason the other two Spider-Men are there, and why this is where Tom Holland's "Uncle Ben" moment happens. MoM is entirely about Wanda's grief and the madness it drove her to. Thor: L&T is about Gorr's grief over his daughter, Thor and Jane's agony over her cancer, and Thor's general dysfunction in the aftermath of Endgame and losing Asgard. Wakanda Forever is about Shuri's grief over her brother and Namor's grief over his mother, and what each drove them to.

In the TV shows, Wandavision is the start of Wanda's grief cycle. Falcon and the Winter Soldier is two guys bonding over their grief and working through it together. Loki's a bit more vague, but he's essentially coming to terms with himself; it's not really about "grief" per se but it's still internally contemplative. Hawkeye is both an introduction to a new character (Kate Bishop), and Clint's grief and recovery.

In Phase four there are more hours of stories between film and television than all the first 3 phases combined. And at no point during any of that have they addressed the state of the Avengers team in any way like they did in the first 3 phases. There is no connective tissue between any of these stories and "The Avengers" have not shown up as a team in any of them. That is the problem. The first phase of the MCU introduced all these characters and their backstories and then culminated in the first Avengers film, showing them all together. Now, we have seen nothing about the Avengers as a team in any way since Endgame. That is just a simple fact. Phase 4 should have been about the aftermath of everything that happened in the Infinity Saga as a continuation of that story, but they basically have dropped that follow up story in favor of stand alone stories not tied to anything or around the Avengers proper.

The bits of Phase 4 I skipped are either new character intros or Black Widow, which I give a pass to because A> it should've been Phase 3, and B> it's a flashback to an earlier time, and C> it's literally the first film of Phase 4 and easing us into it, kinda by letting the audience grieve for Natasha Romanoff, in a sense.

Phase 4 is about grief and recovery. That's the coherent throughline. It's not a particular "fun" one, but it is an important one.

Edit: I haven't seen Quantumania yet and won't speak to it until I do.

It was the Avengers who saved the Universe, not just these individual characters by themselves. There should be a monument to Tony Stark and the Avengers somewhere in the United States acknowledging their sacrifice. That is nowhere to be found in phase 4 because there is no follow up on what came before which would logically happen if the MCU was a TV series. They effectively have ignored following through on the core team and story line that established the MCU as if that story isn't important and the basis of the entire MCU. And the grief and pain in phase 4 actually is because more heroes are dying and or otherwise being incapacitated such as Wanda due to her madness. Again, nothing in phase 4 represents a narrative of rebuilding as opposed to more deconstruction of the team they spent 3 phases and hundreds of millions of dollars building up. It just makes no sense to just throw all that away and leave the status of the core of the franchise to be revealed 5 or 6 years later. And this is where characters like Nick Fury, Captain America and Tony Stark come in because they were key to that effort in the beginning and nobody is being shown at this point as taking on that role. Hinting at it via a cut scene is not addressing that core story arc for the franchise as a whole. If you want to have the same kind of excitement for the finale of these new phases, you need to bring people along by following the rebuilding effort of the team that will ultimately be fighting the big bad. You can't just drop a bunch of new characters in at the last second and pretend it will have the same impact.

Literally nothing prevents us seeing those characters in the MCU. You just explained why the 838 characters being steamrolled is totally in-character for Marvel, as if that were an argument against their treatment. It isn't.

Again, you keep avoiding the point I am making which is people want the X-Men and Fantastic Four and ultimately the Illuminati in the MCU as part of the prime universe. Having them show up as variants from another universe for a few minutes and killed is a waste and there is no guarantee we will actually see them any time soon. Because in order to get them into the current prime universe would require a very convoluted story that wont make any sense or be anything like the comics which would only damage the brand even further. People want the old school X-Men and Fantastic Four set in the 60s through the 90s. Now of course that is not everybody and I don't claim otherwise, but the fact is those original comic stories are what is popular just like the OG Avengers team and stories that they started the MCU off with.

[Dystemper]

Quantimania was a mess. Story was all over the place, plot was stupid. Sidelined Wasp and Antman for the most part , focused on Janet and Cassie . M9dak was fucking horrible and Jang was meh. I know everyone is all about Majors , but I doubt his acting and Kang to be rather boring and Meh. Kang was never a serious villuam in thr comics. Not to mention you heat him and they just pull a variant out their ass.

I left the theater regretting having gone to see it. And I enjoyed the first two movies. This one suffered from a lot if issues . For bringbyge launch pad for phase 5 somone should lose their job over this .

[Endus]

Again, you keep avoiding the point I am making which is people want the X-Men and Fantastic Four and ultimately the Illuminati in the MCU as part of the prime universe. Having them show up as variants from another universe for a few minutes and killed is a waste and there is no guarantee we will actually see them any time soon.

And I'm saying this is a problem with unreasonable expectations by fans making unwarranted headcanon leaps being upset their headcanon turns out to be untrue. Not a problem with the films. I'm a pretty massive Marvel fan, and I sure wasn't in any way upset or annoyed, I thought the scene was great.

It's not a "waste"; it establishes the threat posed by Wanda and her intentional brutality.

There was never a guarantee of any kind offered that you'd see any of those characters again, and some (Black Bolt and Carter's Captain America) are almost certainly never going to appear again. I'd seriously doubt Stewart's gonna reprise his role as Xavier, too; he's getting too old and I'm pretty sure that's a big reason they included the Fox X-men theme when he appeared; it's a reference to his character from those films rather than a teaser for what's upcoming for Marvel.

Krakowski's Reed is the only real teaser in there. Mordo's already active in the MCU, and that leaves only Reed as a feasible teaser. And it's just Reed, not the rest of the Fantastic Four.

Because in order to get them into the current prime universe would require a very convoluted story that wont make any sense or be anything like the comics which would only damage the brand even further.

And would fly directly against their position against multiversal travel. Again, reasons why it's unreasonable to think any of these characters (the 838 versions) would ever show up in the MCU again even if they hadn't been killed outright.

People want the old school X-Men and Fantastic Four set in the 60s through the 90s.

"People" are a useful demographic, since you never say which people or provide any polling evidence to support the claim.

I'm "people" too, and I don't agree with anything you're saying. If we get the FF in the MCU, I could see starting them in the '60s, before having them fall through a wormhole and land in 2028 (or whatever the current date is for the MCU at that time). But it's probably easier just to start fresh. And the X-men, most of the calls I see are asking for characters like Rogue and Wolverine, and they're not original X-men. I said way up-thread that they could either go with a fresh start with the originals, or go with a more modern lineup from the last 20 years, but there's little to recommend the '90s team over anything else.

Now of course that is not everybody and I don't claim otherwise, but the fact is those original comic stories are what is popular just like the OG Avengers team and stories that they started the MCU off with.

A lot of stories are "popular". Not just the ones you're picking.

And the Avengers in the comics had some of the same characters, but Captain America wasn't a founding member, and Hawkeye and Black Widow didn't join for ages. Ant-man was a founding member, along with the Wasp, but they didn't show up in the MCU until the end of Phase 2, and it's Scott Lang's Ant-Man, not Hank Pym's, to boot.

The MCU doesn't do direct translations from comics to the MCU. It's an unreasonable expectation.

[Surfd]

And would fly directly against their position against multiversal travel. Again, reasons why it's unreasonable to think any of these characters (the 838 versions) would ever show up in the MCU again even if they hadn't been killed outright.

There's a slightly greater than zero chance that we get to see universe 838 maybe one more time in the coming future, depending on what exactly they are planning to do with the end credit scene setup from MoM, where Clea appears and yanks Strange off to deal with an incursion he is apparently responsible for causing. Since there's only two universes they interfered in enough to potentially trigger an incursion (838 and Sinister Strange's), it's possible they might go back to 838 to try to stop the incursion. It being Sinister Strange's universe doesn't really make sense, because that universe is already on it's way out after already losing to a previous incursion, so I don't think it could be a target for a second one.