What if off-tanking was more than taunt swapping?

[erifwodahs]

And are you tanking Mythic raids?

Not current one, but yes, had my fair share of it in Legion/BfA and SL. Started as OT and picked up MT at the end of BfA. This is not some gotcha - outside of progression when you are actually getting blasted, tanking feels like being a 4th healer in a fight which only needs 3.5 healers. Not even talking HC/Normal tanking which is what most people who raid non-lfr will be doing, I have no clue how they manage to stay awake.

[Ihazpaws]

First of all tanking should fixed and be about self sustain, dmg mitigation and keeping enemies in correct position. Currently only Brewmaster feels like tank because it's only class that has real active mechanic for handling dmg mitigation and self sustain with powerful CDs to help even further. All other tanks are all about doing same boring cycle to do best possible dmg (which should not be the point) and their "defensive" style is either passive/comes from that dmg cycle without any thinking or their "defensives" are part of the cycle which they just refresh when off CD/usable.
All tanks (except brew) have turned into bear tanks. Some might like that but I don't. If I wanna just spam boring few skill cycle I'd play dps only.

And about "support" specs, I've said this probably since vanilla that there are specs that are useless and pointless and they should be turned into tanks/support specs.
Example: Enha have been forever copypaste combat rogue/fury warrior. Why blizz wont make that spec actual "Enhancement"? Make it's gameplay unique and role to be more towards supporting while dps and maybe ability to offtank for a like 20-30 sec and then have 1 min CD before able to offtank again.
How I would like enha to be: All dmg comes from autoattacks and WF, RB, FT, FB and EL (weap enchants) are the buffs Enha handles. Each lasts for like 6 sec and have no CD or very short CD.

Each enchant gives different things like:
- WF makes autoattacks hit extra time have increased attack speed and 20yard range.
- RB slows down attack speed but does high threat and taunts the target when used (this is for offtanking).
- FT makes all attacks to do fire dmg and spread to everyone in cone front of the Shaman.
- FB makes all attacks slow the target attack/casting speed and movement speed + gives stacking shield to 2 lowest HP friendly targets (+ shaman) on each hit.
- EL makes each autoattack spread stacking hot on 2 friendly targets (+ shaman) and increase all other healing to those targets by x amount.

All enchants are off clobal cooldown.
Shaman can combine 2 enchants together by using skill with 6sec dur/cd and 2 sec "preparation time" when the 2 enchants have to be chosen and used. Preparation time cuts off when second enchant has been chosen and both buffs activate sametime.

Enha also handles totems (remove them from 2 other specs). All totems are now called fire, wind, water and earth. Each totem has 20 sec CD, 12 sec duration and 6 sec shared CD between totems.
Some examples:
- Shaman uses WF and FT enchants and then puts down Fire totem which makes the autoattacks spew out fire tornadoes that spin around the conal area doing extra aoe dmg boosts 2 random friendly targets (+ shaman) attack/casting speed and dmg/healing for the duration of the totem. Buff changes to the other targets every 4 sec (but stays on shaman all the time).
- Shaman offtanks and uses RB + EL and then puts down Earth totem (it has x amount HP) which taunts all targets and collects all dmg it takes and on death transfers it to the shaman as a shield that lasts for the rest of the duration of the totem (12 sec dura: totem dies after 4 sec so player has shield for 8 sec). Totem also links 2 (lowest HP + shaman) together for the 12 sec and all dmg those 2 takes will remove the shield shaman has from the main effect of the totem.

There is some examples of enha.

Another spec would be Arcane mage:
Turn Arcane mage into actual tank or atleast support off tank and make first true ranged tank.
Example how it could work:
- Arcane is all about portals and mirror images
- Arcane has basically same skills like it does now but that boring Arcane Blast removed.
- Arcane wants to have low mana because lower the mana = greater the dmg mitigation but too low mana means he can't use skills. Mana recharges fast when using Evocation. It can only be used when mirror is active tank and makes mirror to cast Evocation too but healing itself instead small amount.
- Evocation has no CD but recharges slowly overtime (defensive skills/talents could make this faster).
- The way how Arcane tanks is by pulling targets by blinking in and Arcane Explosion while having shield that activates on blink and absorbs all dmg for next 4 sec.
- After getting aggro in those first few secs Arcane uses return skill and leaves mirror image where he stands. All threat goes to that image and Arcane transfers back to the position from where he blinked in.
- All skills Arcane uses are copied by the mirror and targeted to Arcanes target (Arcane Explosion detonates twice at the mirror position when mirror is active tank).
- Mirror lasts for a 15 sec (as a active tank) if Arcane swaps positions with it with return skill then mirror goes to "recharge mode". Arcane takes 50% of the dmg over 10sec the mirror has taken over his tanking period + ofc the incoming dmg (this is part where healer has to heal Arcane tank and Arcane has to use defensives).
- When mirror is not the one tanking, it recovers to the full HP (from 1 HP to the max in 10 sec. "Recharge mode")). During that time mirror does not copy spells which again weakens the Arcane so player has to find good balance with swapping.
- When mirror is full, Arcane can again swap places with mirror and healer can chill for a moment.
- If mirror takes too much dmg, Arcane has to swap places earlie and face tank more than he wants to which makes more work for healer and Arcane is weaker than it's mirror.
- If mirror dies, Arcane gets teleported to the mirror location and return point is cleared so Arcane has to make new mirror and blink away to create new return swap point for mirror.
- If Arcane goes too close to the mirror then mirror dies after few secs so Arcane has to think where he wants to tank.
- Longer the mirror is alive it takes more and more dmg which forces Arcane to blink in and make new mirror even when mirror does not take too much dmg but has been alive too long (even small hits will do massive dmg to the mirror which ofc is transferred to the Arcane on swap).
- Arcane uses Arcane Missiles and Barrage for single target threat and Arcane Explosion for AoE (talents give more options and skills).

Just some ideas that will never see the light of the day. Anyway WTB real tanks with actual tank gameplay and remove the stupid "WE ARE DPSERSDSRS" tanking style. And WTB actual support specs.

[Nymrohd]

Not current one, but yes, had my fair share of it in Legion/BfA and SL. Started as OT and picked up MT at the end of BfA. This is not some gotcha - outside of progression when you are actually getting blasted, tanking feels like being a 4th healer in a fight which only needs 3.5 healers. Not even talking HC/Normal tanking which is what most people who raid non-lfr will be doing, I have no clue how they manage to stay awake.

Ah so this is more of "you are all so much worse than me at this game" then.

[erifwodahs]

Ah so this is more of "you are all so much worse than me at this game" then.

What???
All I am saying is that raid tanking is boring af after you finish progression. Same with healing, but at least in healing you can drop healers almost always while dropping tanks is much rarer. OP has no clue about what the tanking is nowadays, but they are not wrong about that raid tanking really needs some innovations, because it does.

[lanerios]

1.) if you think off tanking still exists in current raids you are wrong
2.) if you think that tanks do nothing more than taunt swap you are wrong

Generally Tanking at this point is fine. Could tanks have a bit more interesting abilities outside "Drop AOE here" (Line with spikes in latest raid) or "Stack with player to soak damage" (Argus). Yes, they could have more interesting fun mechanics.

Should that come at the cost of their current playstyle? No

[Amariw]

The coolest part of your suggestion, imo, is the support part. That's something you could build on, i think. Don't see why it would need to be tied to tanking.

[Nymrohd]

What I'd change is bring back the Legion APM. Bring more utilities/heals off the global cooldown. Make survival more rewarding by making it more important to react very fast to health swings.

[Vakna]

There is no such thing as an off tank in world of warcraft. Both tanks have the same role and (in most cases) do the exact same thing.

[Julmara]

you can still engage with group soaking when you arent tanking anything on some bosses or you can decide to stay all lazy on the boss the whole time

[Soon-TM]

you can still engage with group soaking when you arent tanking anything on some bosses or you can decide to stay all lazy on the boss the whole time

Sure, but the point is that there isn't anything specific to tanking when it comes to soaking raid mechanics.

[Nightshade711]

I dunno...I've seen a whole lot of tanks indicate that raid tanking is usually boring, and frequently while there are often mechanics that mostly affect the tanks, there are a a lot of encounter mechanics that don't target tanks at all too.

I haven’t raid tanked since BfA… but during Nyalotha I literally had enough time between tank swaps for bosses like il'gynoth to go and cook myself ramen. (Though tbf both myself and the other tank could get a good few stacks of his beam on heroic.)
The other tank did the same and it became a running gag in the guild.

[Dreyen]

If your tank can't hold threat off your dps they are trolling and/or bad. Taunt literally gives you a window of boosted threat to throw a few big dps dumps into and it's a non factor even if your dps is higher. This is a common complaint when your co tank doesn't understand how to play, you never see this at higher end play for a reason.

I'm also fine with fights where both tanks are actively tanking though.

I averaged 95th percentile parse back then, and he averaged 60th percentile. I believe guardian did more damage than prot warrior too. When not tanking, I'd spam all my rage on mauls to replace my swipes, so my damage was higher than actively tanking.

Was he bad? I guess, he was still above average according to his percentile, he always executed mechanics flawlessly and raidlead our guild so i had little complaints outside of his damage.

I just wish it was impossible to steal threat from a co-tank outside of taunts... But I guess it'd become a weird dynamic on trash tanking. Maybe taunts should just give double the threat your co-tank has and call it a day.

[Nymrohd]

I averaged 95th percentile parse back then, and he averaged 60th percentile. I believe guardian did more damage than prot warrior too. When not tanking, I'd spam all my rage on mauls to replace my swipes, so my damage was higher than actively tanking.

Was he bad? I guess, he was still above average according to his percentile, he always executed mechanics flawlessly and raidlead our guild so i had little complaints outside of his damage.

I just wish it was impossible to steal threat from a co-tank outside of taunts... But I guess it'd become a weird dynamic on trash tanking. Maybe taunts should just give double the threat your co-tank has and call it a day.

It happens, sometimes the difference in Single Target between specs is very significant and especially with harder hitting bosses you cannot prioritize threat over defense during the additional threat window of the tank switch. And these days you cannot just stop doing damage because you need to do your rotation for resources to deal with DoTs on you etc. And yeah if he was also raid leading it is hard to expect him to perform to his best

[Nathanyel]

From the thread title, I rather expected something similar to Intervene: abilities that the tank without aggro can use to help the tank with aggro.

Rough idea: Step between the enemy and their friendly target, redirecting the next X physical attacks/damage dealt to you instead for up to 6 seconds. After this effect ends, you are left unbalanced, reducing your block/parry/dodge chance by 50% for 8 seconds.
Effect reduced by 50% when assisting a friendly target that is not in a tank specialization.

[Tech614]

It happens, sometimes the difference in Single Target between specs is very significant and especially with harder hitting bosses you cannot prioritize threat over defense during the additional threat window of the tank switch. And these days you cannot just stop doing damage because you need to do your rotation for resources to deal with DoTs on you etc. And yeah if he was also raid leading it is hard to expect him to perform to his best

"prioritize defense" The only significant defensive buttons for tanks that are on the global are do significant threat like fiery brand. There is no prioritizing shit. Not to mention if you need a defensive on the jump it should be up before you taunt in the first place unless you like taking unmitigated hits for the luls.

[Nymrohd]

"prioritize defense" The only significant defensive buttons for tanks that are on the global are do significant threat like fiery brand. There is no prioritizing shit. Not to mention if you need a defensive on the jump it should be up before you taunt in the first place unless you like taking unmitigated hits for the luls.

I'd say it depends a bit on the class. A feral druid using their rage on maul does sacrifice defense. A warrior can prioritize ignore pain over revenge/execute. A paladin could use WoG instead of an additional SotR. The difference is certainly not massive but it is still significant.

[Nachtigal]

Forget the "support role" in WoW. It doesn't work without a redesign so fundamental and so extensive you might as well make a new game.

What you mean is a DPS that offtanks, which has happened before on occasion but really kind of cuts into a few problem areas - so that's why it's not really done anymore. Asking one role to do its job but ALSO another job is precisely what's been pissing off a lot of tank and healer players as they get bullied into doing more DPS, and of course in this case you're lacking actual class tools so it'd have to be some contrived fight-specific BS which is rarely popular and prone to abuse/bugs.

ACTUAL "support" in the sense of just providing buffs etc. is a pipe dream that's been floating around for years, but is never, ever going to happen.

I don't think it would require so much "redesign", really. Bosses are designed to be passed around by two tanks. Tank A will hold boss until a mechanic requires Tank B to pull it away or Tank A will die. Tank B takes over and holds it until the mechanic requires Tank A to take the boss to keep Tank B alive. Yeah, sometimes, there are a couple cool fights where tanks get to have fun, but most of the time it's babysitting.

It would not be hard to re-design bosses so that a single tank can handle the encounter, with a bit of help from what would have been Tank B. Taunt swaps could still exist, and potentially be made fun by introducing a support style tank. Doesn't quite have the survivability to tank the boss outright, but is a safe option to hold the boss for 30-40 seconds out of a fight to assist the tank live through a mechanic. During downtime, these "support style" tanks wouldn't quite have the DPS to go toe-to-toe on the meters with their DPS allies, but could assist by supplying certain buffs. When they do rotation A, maybe they conjure forth a spell that increases allies mastery by 10% for 15 seconds, and while that rotation is on cooldown, they could begin rotation B where they increase allies crit by 15% for 10 seconds. Or they could do rotation C to assist their healers by increasing allies leech by 10% for 20 seconds. Or they could do rotation D to increase their healers healing by 15% for 20 seconds. Or they could just have some weaker healing spells to use to help healers push through higher damage phases.

There's a variety of different "rotations" blizzard could create, and balance through placing key components to the buff on a meaningful CD. I think in it's best form, it would be an optional variety for groups to choose if they'd rather utilize a full tank for their OT position, or use the support style. Throw it in as a 3rd or 4th spec to an existing class, so that the option to actually play this spec exists. I think it could work, and I think it could be fun. The game goes stale when the answer to everything becomes "well the RWF people wouldn't make use of it, so it's pointless."

- - - Updated - - -

I'd say it depends a bit on the class. A feral druid using their rage on maul does sacrifice defense. A warrior can prioritize ignore pain over revenge/execute. A paladin could use WoG instead of an additional SotR. The difference is certainly not massive but it is still significant.

It's true, this is a nice thing that Blizzard have really expanded on in Dragonflight. There was always a bit of sacrifice you could do to max dps during off-tank times, but this go around it seems more.... practical.

- - - Updated - - -

From the thread title, I rather expected something similar to Intervene: abilities that the tank without aggro can use to help the tank with aggro.

Rough idea: Step between the enemy and their friendly target, redirecting the next X physical attacks/damage dealt to you instead for up to 6 seconds. After this effect ends, you are left unbalanced, reducing your block/parry/dodge chance by 50% for 8 seconds.
Effect reduced by 50% when assisting a friendly target that is not in a tank specialization.

Yes, exactly this. Stuff like this could be a really fun thing for blizzard to add. I think it would make the most sense to fit in as a 3rd/4th spec on an existing class that can reliably fulfill the role of second tank while being able to provide small but worthwhile buffs to all areas of the raid party. There would be buffs for the tank, the healers and the dps. The spec would have a basic rotation, to do respectable damage, still outperformed by all dps specs. Maybe you could even go farther and give a different class an extra spec that does the same thing as the aforementioned, but this time with a basic healing kit able to help out with healing but still not pull enough weight to earn an outright healer slot.

There is a lot of potential for a variety of different abilities like you've mentioned. I think it would be an interesting addition to the game as long as people would have the choice to use a proper second tank or a support style second tank.

[Nymrohd]

It's true, this is a nice thing that Blizzard have really expanded on in Dragonflight. There was always a bit of sacrifice you could do to max dps during off-tank times, but this go around it seems more.... practical.

Meh I'd want something more for Paladin. We still don't have a proper damage resource dump like ferals or warriors have. I am not as familiar with the rest of the tanks but I think we all should have that option.

[plz delete account]

By off tanking, are we talking about ranged tanking, the thing locks and hunters do, or off-tanking, the practice of having a DPS ready for step in when a pull starts going badly?

[huth]

By off tanking, are we talking about ranged tanking, the thing locks and hunters do, or off-tanking, the practice of having a DPS ready for step in when a pull starts going badly?

Apparently, neither, as the OP does not appear aware that off-tanking isn't really a thing that happens anymore.