Would Blizzard ever institute support specs?

[Teriz]

Yes but where is your proof that it wouldn't be a nightmare? We already have ample proof that it's difficult to balance just 3 roles across 13 classes.

Because Blizzard has never stated as such. The "balancing nightmare" pops up anytime there is a discussion of new specs and new classes being added to the game. However that argument only comes from forum posters. Blizzard has never stated that adding a support role would be a nightmare to balance or break the game. Saying as such would be a good way to remove talk of such a role permanently.

And how would that work for older content? Sure level scaling usually makes older content irrelevant yet even now, Mythic BFA raids can be quite difficult to solo.

You answered your own question. In the end, a support role is really just boosting the existing abilities of the existing specs. If anything it could justify a ramping up of the difficulty of old boss fights since the added support would be giving groups more DPS and HPS.

That's usually not the problem. The problem is justifying the cost. Is adding a support class (along with readjusting the rest of the game) going to bring in more players than it will cost to implement? Are we going to be able to see population levels return back to Wrath days with this change?

But Activision Blizzard has tons of money, yes that's true but they still have to justify the cost to their shareholders. So instead of devoting additional resources to <insert support class> maybe they invest those resources in... Shorter patch cycles, more content, bringing GPT AI into the game, etc etc.

I don't know how it would influence the population of the game. I do know that it would add more depth and complexity to our classes and group content, and I could see that being attractive for many players, whether they're playing or no longer playing. It would be a massive shake up to WoW, which I feel is definitely needed.

See my previous point about scaling - in short, a flat buff amount (even only at specific frequencies) can multiply the remaining DPS output by such an extreme amount that you would be handicapping your group without said buff class. Going to a scaling modifier so that the boosting effect goes down as you get more players would also be difficult to balance as toss in additional variables such as healer to DPS ratio. Or healers that act as DPS (i.e. Disc priests) or what happens to the scaling when you have more than 1 buff class in the group.

Well that's the point; Just like you wouldn't enter a raid without a tank or a healer, if this were to ever happen, you wouldn't enter a raid without support either. It would be just another part of the puzzle that makes a strong and complete group.

[Alroxas]

Because Blizzard has never stated as such. The "balancing nightmare" pops up anytime there is a discussion of new specs and new classes being added to the game. However that argument only comes from forum posters. Blizzard has never stated that adding a support role would be a nightmare to balance or break the game. Saying as such would be a good way to remove talk of such a role permanently.

Ok but we're not talking about Blizzard, we're talking about YOU specifically. You stated that a support class/spec would NOT be a balancing nightmare but where is your proof of that?

Please share for the rest of us how exactly a support class/spec would work and give specific numbers for the various scenarios (i.e. Party content, raid content, PvP content). How does it scale with X number of players? Does it influence all DPS (even from non DPS classes such as Tanks and Healers)? Are the boosting effects additive? Multiplicative? What happens with 2 support class/specs in a party or in a raid?

I don't know how it would influence the population of the game. I do know that it would add more depth and complexity to our classes and group content, and I could see that being attractive for many players, whether they're playing or no longer playing. It would be a massive shake up to WoW, which I feel is definitely needed.

But don't you see the issue at hand? You want to spend X resources on a bet that it could help "shake up to WoW" but how does that bet compare to other potential investments?

Others would state that they would rather have X resources put into other areas instead. So then how would you justify your idea as "better" than some other idea? Take shorter patch cycles like Legion's 77 day patch cycle. Would more players prefer resources devoted to move WoW's patch cycle back to 77 days OR the addition of the support class/spec? Can't have both, must pick one or the other.

Well that's the point; Just like you wouldn't enter a raid without a tank or a healer, if this were to ever happen, you wouldn't enter a raid without support either. It would be just another part of the puzzle that makes a strong and complete group.

Except that Tanks/Healers/DPS are already established roles making the "holy trinity". You're advocating for a complete change to add in a fourth role - support that would be mandatory.

In short, it would be easier to build a new game with this Quad theory than it is to try to conform WoW into this new model.

[jeezusisacasual]

I would say some avenues for it already exist in the form of Vampire Embrace or Trees from the druid but should it be expanded upon? Yes to a degree things like a hunter pet providing a missing buff would help greatly or would that push the hunter into the its killing my niche crying that happened for years? Another thing is that the game has moved closer to smaller group settings instead of larger ones which hurts the i must be special mindset.

Then the next question regarding this is how will the overall populace take it into account? If its not needed does it matter? does it help kill the min/max attitude of the population? which i would argue is a fine point to make. The way people view healers helping with the damage / cc / interrupts is already hot button issue ( i think this is the way to move it forward ). Should content be cleared without the balancing of having those knobs? These are just the starting questions regarding this and expecting a balanced fun game are more important then the feelings of role playing as demonstrated by its community.

[The Stormbringer]

I don't think so. Adding another role to the game would be hell to balance around.

[LedZeppelin]

is getting pi every cd not enough for you?

[Ashana Darkmoon]

not going to happen, next question!

[Teriz]

Ok but we're not talking about Blizzard, we're talking about YOU specifically. You stated that a support class/spec would NOT be a balancing nightmare but where is your proof of that?

Please share for the rest of us how exactly a support class/spec would work and give specific numbers for the various scenarios (i.e. Party content, raid content, PvP content). How does it scale with X number of players? Does it influence all DPS (even from non DPS classes such as Tanks and Healers)? Are the boosting effects additive? Multiplicative? What happens with 2 support class/specs in a party or in a raid?

Again, Blizzard has added plenty of stuff to the game since Vanilla, and none of that has broken the game or been a "balancing nightmare". In the end, support specs would only essentially increase the power of the existing specs, and decrease the power of mobs and bosses. From my vantage point, it seems that the only balancing required would be to tune the difficulty of raids to compensate for groups putting out more DPS, HPS, and mitigation.

To your questions, that would depend on the individual abilities and thematics behind each support spec. I could imagine that some support specs are better for tanks, while others are better for DPS, while still others are great for healers, with all of them being sufficiently capable of supporting all three. As for the buffs, I would imagine it would be same situation as what occurred when Shaman and Paladin were largely offering support buffs; Only a certain amount of buffs can be used at a time, the same buff wouldn't stack on itself, etc.

But don't you see the issue at hand? You want to spend X resources on a bet that it could help "shake up to WoW" but how does that bet compare to other potential investments?

Others would state that they would rather have X resources put into other areas instead. So then how would you justify your idea as "better" than some other idea? Take shorter patch cycles like Legion's 77 day patch cycle. Would more players prefer resources devoted to move WoW's patch cycle back to 77 days OR the addition of the support class/spec? Can't have both, must pick one or the other.

Well it wouldn't be a bet. Support specializations would definitely shake up the meta of the game and forever change how the game is played. I'm not here trying to compete with other ideas (whatever those may be), I'm simply saying that we've had the trinity for a very long time and there is an entire type of gameplay that people enjoy that isn't really represented in WoW. Perhaps it is time for a change?

Except that Tanks/Healers/DPS are already established roles making the "holy trinity". You're advocating for a complete change to add in a fourth role - support that would be mandatory.

In short, it would be easier to build a new game with this Quad theory than it is to try to conform WoW into this new model.

Again, all the support would do basically is enhance the holy trinity and enfeeble enemies. I'm not seeing how this would break the game. It would certainly requiring balance and tuning, but that's always been the case.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Does anyone think it’s possible that at some point Blizzard would give new specs for existing classes, and those specs would be support-based, like Bards and Dancers from Final Fantasy?

Support specs work in Final Fantasy XI because:

• Combat is slow and leisurely enough. It's not like WoW where you see the boss' cast bar begin or launch an AoE and you have 1.5 seconds to react or you're dead. In FFXI, you can go 20 seconds without needing to press any buttons whatsoever. You don't need to have total concentration and having split second reflexes. You have time to actually type and shoot the breeze in chat and strategize on the fly, whereas with WoW you can't do that. You have to be mashing your buttons or else you won't meet the DPS check or interrupt a mob's ability or dodge an AoE, and so on.

• Continuing on from above, FFXI's combat is not super engaging like WoW. Even if you play a melee class, you're mostly watching your character autoattack while you press a button once every 20 seconds. More players are willing to play support roles because support gameplay isn't really that much less engaging than DPSing, whereas WoW is an action game with punchy combat, and playing a non-combat role is so much less engaging.

• FFXI parties are of 6 players. It is easier to fit in roles that don't adhere to the core holy trinity. In a 4 or even a 5 man group, it is difficult to justify fitting in someone who isn't tanking, DPSing, or healing.

I don't think support roles could be implemented in WoW without significantly redesigning WoW's combat and encounter design.

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No, its completely redundant.
First off you need to define what support is and why its exclusive from the role of healer and tank

In FFXI a supporter can be many things.

• Red Mages cast and maintain debuffs on enemy mobs, ie blind which makes many of the mob's attacls miss, paralyze which makes the mob often unable to perform an action, poison which is a DoT, and so on.

• Bards cast songs that can buff the party, like haste buffs.

• Corsair can cast buffs.

• Geomancer can heal and buff.

This wouldn't really work that well in WoW, given that each class in WoW has a toolkit that covers too many bases that it wouldn't make a support role as in FFXI stand out that much in WoW. If most damage dealing classes in WoW couldn't cast buffs, then the role of support would be more noticeable.

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I would love a shakeup of the holy trinity with dedicated support classes that don't heal or anything just buff you and debuff the enemy. But that begs the question: How would it work in solo play?

It doesn't. Support works in FFXI because everything after levels 1-10 is done in a group. Some builds can fight in a small group of 2 or 3 players (ie, a Dragoon/Red Mage is great at low manning due to the combination of damage and heals), but pure supports like Bard are going to want to sit in a full 6 player party to level up. But in WoW, the classes are designed to be able to be played by themselves solo out in the open world.

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I mean if you buff group performance enough you might be able to take a DPS away. Probably simpler to do than rebalance every boss for a larger group.

The band-aid fix I can think of would be to increase party size to 6, and to remove DPS checks. That way DPS isn't the end-all-be-all and supports can be better fit in a comp, though you once again run into the issue that 1. in WoW, fighting is so much more engaging so fewer people will want to play relatively boring support gameplay, and 2. WoW fights are too intensive and exhausting. That would require a total redesign to address, which risks alienating the people currently already playing WoW who enjoy the combat as it is and don't want it to be changed.

[babalou1]

No.

1. The support would have to take the place of a DPS. Flat out.

2. Said support would 100% have to enable the group to do enough extra damage to offset the missing dps either through BL level buffs on 30-60-90s CDs or combo of debuffs of enemies AND buffs of allies.

3. It would also have to be party wide only. Otherwise class stacking would be massively worse than it can be now.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Ever more so when there is no obvious gain in doing so. It's really not like this is something missing from the game.

The class fantasy of being a bard strumming his instrument and singing to raise his comrades' morale as he beholds their fight against a dark lord. The class fantasy of being a monk who touches the boss' correct pressure points and paralyzes his nerves, preventing the boss from casting abilities. The class fantasy of being a runemaster who carves runes into the ground that his allies step into to be protected from a dragon's firery breath. And so on.

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You don’t think there’s a segment of players who prefer support over other roles and don’t like to heal? I know there’s heal and support in FF14 and other games, and healers and support are two very distinct groups of players.

Support roles do not exist in FF14. FF14 is a WoW clone where you do everything in the open world by yourself, only group with other players for instances, and combat is a button masher and the fights are tightly tuned and fast paced so you can't stop to breathe and type in chat and shoot the breeze with other players. Think trying to fit a support into a WoW group of 5 would be difficult? FF14 has a party size of 4. Impossible.

[jeezusisacasual]

No.

1. The support would have to take the place of a DPS. Flat out.

2. Said support would 100% have to enable the group to do enough extra damage to offset the missing dps either through BL level buffs on 30-60-90s CDs or combo of debuffs of enemies AND buffs of allies.

3. It would also have to be party wide only. Otherwise class stacking would be massively worse than it can be now.

People also forget that they would have to be ahead of a contribution to the group then a dps in the mathematical sense otherwise they will just bring another dps and then if they are the only specs that get stuns / snares / buffs / debuffs then you simplified the meta to whomever does the most damage regardless the days of 12 feral druids in a single raid will be back ( i am taking the piss here btw ).

That role does not work in a game where there is next to no mystery and since WoW will forever be figured out before a patch even launches it makes very little sense to add that unless you force comps in a raid or mythic plus setting and trust me when i say it will be min/maxed to the fullest since we as a community already do that with regards to fun let alone progress.

[Teriz]

Support specs work in Final Fantasy XI because:

• Combat is slow and leisurely enough. It's not like WoW where you see the boss' cast bar begin or launch an AoE and you have 1.5 seconds to react or you're dead. In FFXI, you can go 20 seconds without needing to press any buttons whatsoever. You don't need to have total concentration and having split second reflexes. You have time to actually type and shoot the breeze in chat and strategize on the fly, whereas with WoW you can't do that. You have to be mashing your buttons or else you won't meet the DPS check or interrupt a mob's ability or dodge an AoE, and so on.

• Continuing on from above, FFXI's combat is not super engaging like WoW. Even if you play a melee class, you're mostly watching your character autoattack while you press a button once every 20 seconds. More players are willing to play support roles because support gameplay isn't really that much less engaging than DPSing, whereas WoW is an action game with punchy combat, and playing a non-combat role is so much less engaging.

• FFXI parties are of 6 players. It is easier to fit in roles that don't adhere to the core holy trinity. In a 4 or even a 5 man group, it is difficult to justify fitting in someone who isn't tanking, DPSing, or healing.

I don't think support roles could be implemented in WoW without significantly redesigning WoW's combat and encounter design.

You don't think you could simply take WoW's current combat design and simply create support abilities instead of DPS and Healing abilities?

Shaman and Paladin had aspects of a support spec, and they worked fine in WoW's much faster combat system. They just became clunky and boring to play as because their role wasn't more clearly defined.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

You don't think you could simply take WoW's current combat design and simply create support abilities instead of DPS and Healing abilities?

No. Because 1. WoW classes already do too much of everything, which would make it difficult to justify support classes based off of their utility of one or two abilities without making those abilities ridiculously powerful, 2. WoW is an action game where mashing button to attack the mob is far more engaging than non-combat gameplay so few people will be willing to engage in the opportunity cost of playing a support role, 3. WoW fights are far too fast paced to make it possible for a support role to converse with their teammates during combat and change tactics, and 4. given how WoW fights revolve around dealing enough DPS to meet a check or completing a dungeon as fast as possible, and with a party cap of 5, it will be very difficult to fit a support role into a group. The "go-go" mentality would have to be removed (remove DPS checks, stop making the game revolve around mythic+) and the party size increased to 6.

[Teriz]

No. Because 1. WoW classes already do too much of everything, which would make it difficult to justify support classes based off of their utility of one or two abilities without making those abilities ridiculously powerful, 2. WoW is an action game where mashing button to attack the mob is far more engaging than non-combat gameplay so few people will be willing to engage in the opportunity cost of playing a support role, and 3. WoW fights are far too fast paced to make it possible for a support role to converse with their teammates during combat and change tactics.

Well healers aren't attacking mobs in groups, they're keeping everyone health bars up. Also who's to say that support's job wouldn't include doing a little opportunistic DPS and healing?

And yeah, I would say they should have ridiculously powerful single and AoE buffs and debuffs to justify their existence as a role. A good support will make a raid go much quicker and smoother. A bad support will slow the raid down considerably, and maybe even lead to a wipe.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Well healers aren't attacking mobs in groups, they're keeping everyone health bars up. Also who's to say that support's job wouldn't include doing a little opportunistic DPS and healing?

Then you're back to the problem of WoW gameplay being too intensive for a supporter to stop and type and discuss with the group what their next stratagem would be so he knows which buffs/debuffs to switch to, which mobs to prioritize for his abilities, and so on.

[Wangming]

The band-aid fix I can think of would be to increase party size to 6, and to remove DPS checks. That way DPS isn't the end-all-be-all and supports can be better fit in a comp, though you once again run into the issue that 1. in WoW, fighting is so much more engaging so fewer people will want to play relatively boring support gameplay, and 2. WoW fights are too intensive and exhausting. That would require a total redesign to address, which risks alienating the people currently already playing WoW who enjoy the combat as it is and don't want it to be changed.

Okay, but if there are no DPS checks, what would you need the support class to help with? Pretty sure most of support skills would increase damage. Either by directly buffing it, or increasing attack speed. Sure they could help with survival, but again if there are no enrages with a dps check attached to them, what is there to survive?

Nah the party size and the DPS checks stay in place, support is switched in for one of the DPS slots and Blizz figures out a mechanic to make throwing around support actually engaging. Hell if it would work like the dances for Dancer in FFXIV or the mudras for Ninja, it could still be fun even if the end result is just "increase attack speed". Just imagine Huton being party wide.

[bloodmoth13]

Support specs work in Final Fantasy XI because:

• Combat is slow and leisurely enough. It's not like WoW where you see the boss' cast bar begin or launch an AoE and you have 1.5 seconds to react or you're dead. In FFXI, you can go 20 seconds without needing to press any buttons whatsoever. You don't need to have total concentration and having split second reflexes. You have time to actually type and shoot the breeze in chat and strategize on the fly, whereas with WoW you can't do that. You have to be mashing your buttons or else you won't meet the DPS check or interrupt a mob's ability or dodge an AoE, and so on.

• Continuing on from above, FFXI's combat is not super engaging like WoW. Even if you play a melee class, you're mostly watching your character autoattack while you press a button once every 20 seconds. More players are willing to play support roles because support gameplay isn't really that much less engaging than DPSing, whereas WoW is an action game with punchy combat, and playing a non-combat role is so much less engaging.

• FFXI parties are of 6 players. It is easier to fit in roles that don't adhere to the core holy trinity. In a 4 or even a 5 man group, it is difficult to justify fitting in someone who isn't tanking, DPSing, or healing.

I don't think support roles could be implemented in WoW without significantly redesigning WoW's combat and encounter design.

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In FFXI a supporter can be many things.

• Red Mages cast and maintain debuffs on enemy mobs, ie blind which makes many of the mob's attacls miss, paralyze which makes the mob often unable to perform an action, poison which is a DoT, and so on.

• Bards cast songs that can buff the party, like haste buffs.

• Corsair can cast buffs.

• Geomancer can heal and buff.

This wouldn't really work that well in WoW, given that each class in WoW has a toolkit that covers too many bases that it wouldn't make a support role as in FFXI stand out that much in WoW. If most damage dealing classes in WoW couldn't cast buffs, then the role of support would be more noticeable.

Yeah that's pretty much what I expected.
Wow has stuns and interrupts which cover a chunk of that, we also have some support abilities like bloodlust or power infusion which are quite restricted since throughput is something players care a lot about in this game

Wow doesn't deal with debuffs as much as it could, I'd like to see defensive debuffs added to more classes that reduce incoming damage but that is mostly seen as a tank thing and more passive tank mitigation isn't really something the game needs a lot more of.

Like I said in my post though blizz could add more support gameplay to dps specs

[Thraenduil]

As it is said in different ways before on this threat, the problem is wow- community. You see, they are very "fair" people. They want all players treated "equally" and no one is allowed to stand above others(in logs).
If support specs came to be, they would have to have different single target- buffs in addition to group- buffs. The very idea of single target- buff is "unfair" since it gives one player in a group an advantage over others if it can't be casted many times in succession over short duration to cover whole group.
Unless players learn to sometimes give way to each other for greater good(i.e completing dungeon/raid), support specs won't have a place in the game.

[Teriz]

Then you're back to the problem of WoW gameplay being too intensive for a supporter to stop and type and discuss with the group what their next stratagem would be so he knows which buffs/debuffs to switch to, which mobs to prioritize for his abilities, and so on.

Can't you purchase headsets for that sort of thing?

[Verissaugh]

Can't you purchase headsets for that sort of thing?

Are you saying force ppl into voice-chat? Or can you explain what you mean more?