Is WoW's combat holding the game back?

[BeepBoo]

They fix it by making the classes all much easier to play. This would not cater to high end players who enjoy outskilling lesser players, so the problem is another aspect of their hardcore fixation.

Making it easier to play (i.e. removing specific sequence requirements, reducing the number of buttons in the rotation, reducing situational decision making, etc) would just reduce the enjoyment of the combat system. It's fun for many because you have to have the mechanical skill to hit things in the correct order at a fast-ish pace.

Turning every class into DH would instantly make the combat trash.

Also, don't fucking tell me about how the game needs to be easier to play. We have a BM hunter who routinely parses orange that's a fucking CLICKER. Having to learn proper rotations isn't some extremely high bar you think it is, and making the game's combat faceroll is just idiotic. Plus, there are now more tools than ever to help players. Hekili can essentially tell you exactly what you need to press next in your rotation.

I wonder if you consider FPSs or the normal attack spam simulator like elden ring to be "simple" because the premise of what you do is easy to grasp? Again, I prefer games where the premise is the difficult thing and you actually need a brain to play but executing the plays is easy (in wow's case, virtually guaranteed). Games where the premise is simple but the execution is hard (i.e. "dodge boss attacks, hit boss with your attacks, repeat till dead" is easy, but successfully dodging all those attacks while getting your own hits in is difficult) are vastly more boring most of the time.

[Auxis]

I think combat is fine. It could do with some more skill-shot abilities and if they expand upon charged abilities like Evoker has access to atm (I believe they said they may use it in other classes going forward?), it could make combat more engaging and fun.

[Lordofbelbol]

LOL classic wow can't be compered to Vanilla it's his nerfed version that Blizzard scammed people to get money.

When the last time you did CC a mob in when mob group attacked you in modern wow?? Only thing i see from wow is AOE and Zergs.
Another thing we have do admit about modern wow that the Combat is fast unlike in Vanilla wow and this is why some people got bored playing classic.

2 hour ago in Nokhund offensive last boss, cc'd the right caster with DH imprison
1 day ago in Hov where you pull 3 groups and BL, monk used paralysis on the caster so the pull goes smoother and we gripped him later

[mauserr]

In Vanilla you needed skill and experience to kill bosses.

lmao

omegalul

topkekw

HAHA

KEXIMUS MAXIMUS


sorry, can't really express how stupid this sounds without resorting to memes, its just your sentence is a meme in itself and there cant be anybody in 2023 who really believes that

[Osmeric]

Making it easier to play (i.e. removing specific sequence requirements, reducing the number of buttons in the rotation, reducing situational decision making, etc) would just reduce the enjoyment of the combat system.

It would increase my enjoyment. I contend it would increase the enjoyment of your average player.

Your take there is the usual "only the hardcores matter" BS we constantly see in discussions of WoW.

[LalaGamer]

lmao

omegalul

topkekw

HAHA

KEXIMUS MAXIMUS


sorry, can't really express how stupid this sounds without resorting to memes, its just your sentence is a meme in itself and there cant be anybody in 2023 who really believes that

Did you play Vanilla ??

[Biomega]

Did you play Vanilla ??

Did YOU?

Vanilla is an absolute joke. Completely clueless idiots could go into raids and kill bosses with 1-button-spam rotations.

How do I know?

I WAS ONE OF THOSE IDIOTS.

It's not even comparable to today's game, not in any way, shape, or form. And I mean that - it's silly to try and compare WoW across eras, because things are just way too different on so many levels. You can SOMEWHAT compare Vanilla-Wrath, Cata-Mop, and Legion-SL as distinct periods (arguably DF is the beginning of the next one) but comparing across is just going to lead to massive incongruities.

WoW's combat paradigm of tab-target hotkey-based gameplay has remained somewhat constant, though. And that's a good thing. It gives WoW a very distinct, very controlled feel - it's far more about the decisions you make rather than your reaction time and manual dexterity like action-based combat tends to be (in PvE anyway, PvP might be different idk). That allows for high encounter complexity and difficulty without being overly punishing on player performance in a way that requires massive amounts of high-intensity gameplay. Looking at what that does to people in e.g. RTS or FPS games, we should all be glad that it's a very different kind of combat.

And of course there's the technical side of things to consider, where gameplay effectively paced by 1-second GCD intervals means you can be much more stringent about client-server stuff, and have a much more precise experience. New World tried to do action combat in an MMO and had to shift more stuff to the client because of it - the result was rampant abuse and exploitation. WoW's secure architecture isn't without its downsides, but it delivers what's arguably the best MMO raid/dungeon experience ever made, and the combat design is a big part of it.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Tab target
VS
Action combat with collision, hit boxes and IFrames

Why do i think "it is"?
Because in action combat there is always a sense of mastery and interaction even on the easiest content.
Is NOT a matter of numbers, dice rolling rpg and holy trinity (like in WoW) AND is a matter of mastering the enemy actual visual animations and mastering iframe windows (like in souls games or monster hunter)
Lets now evaluate how "FUN" can be had in the different playstyles AND lets compare WoW to Monster Hunter (which is the only souls like multiplayer game i know of)

What is WoW's "Fun Factor" in a normal dungeon?

1-DPS meter
2-Performing the boss mechanic "dance" and moving around the red circles
3-Mastery is evaluated (for the most part) at an individual level. For example, DPS'ers cant interact/support eachother in a meaningful and constant way.

What is Monster Hunter's "Fun Factor" in a normal Boss?

1-Mastering the boss visual tells, iframe windows etc
2-No holy trinity means every Hunter is his/her own person (leads to a more sense of danger and thrill)
3-Your group can only die 3 times per hunt, so you better have teamwork. Kick your own allies that are stunned or blinded, use traps, flash grenades, put yourself in front of a fireball aimed at your downed friend about to be killed
4-One thing unique to Monster Hunter that WoW doesn't have is that THERE IS FUN to be had in lower level Bosses (Dungeons). Because the soul's like, Monster Hunter combat itself is always asked to be mastered. Teamwork to be had between the DPS'ers AND the bosses always have 4x the healthpool because they are meant to be killed by 4 players.
This means even in low level content there is fun to be had (unlike WoW where u one shot all trash and bosses due to level disparity)

DISCALIMER:

IM NOT SAYING "WoW's Combat is crap"
IM SAYING:

Action combat in WoW WOULD open up a lot of possibilities, teamworks, social dynamics, fun interactions and possible different ways to play the game.
And i think with tab target we are stuck in time with no possibility for innovation in COMBAT ways to play the game with different social dynamics.


What do you think?

No its one of the if not the best parts about the game.

There are plenty of other games with action combat (they are all kinda bad imo)

[ONCHEhap]

Did YOU?

Vanilla is an absolute joke. Completely clueless idiots could go into raids and kill bosses with 1-button-spam rotations.

poopsocking your way through raids with all world buffs isn't indicative of the difficulty of the game

[baskev]

Tab target
VS
Action combat with collision, hit boxes and IFrames

Why do i think "it is"?
Because in action combat there is always a sense of mastery and interaction even on the easiest content.
Is NOT a matter of numbers, dice rolling rpg and holy trinity (like in WoW) AND is a matter of mastering the enemy actual visual animations and mastering iframe windows (like in souls games or monster hunter)
Lets now evaluate how "FUN" can be had in the different playstyles AND lets compare WoW to Monster Hunter (which is the only souls like multiplayer game i know of)

What is WoW's "Fun Factor" in a normal dungeon?

1-DPS meter
2-Performing the boss mechanic "dance" and moving around the red circles
3-Mastery is evaluated (for the most part) at an individual level. For example, DPS'ers cant interact/support eachother in a meaningful and constant way.

What is Monster Hunter's "Fun Factor" in a normal Boss?

1-Mastering the boss visual tells, iframe windows etc
2-No holy trinity means every Hunter is his/her own person (leads to a more sense of danger and thrill)
3-Your group can only die 3 times per hunt, so you better have teamwork. Kick your own allies that are stunned or blinded, use traps, flash grenades, put yourself in front of a fireball aimed at your downed friend about to be killed
4-One thing unique to Monster Hunter that WoW doesn't have is that THERE IS FUN to be had in lower level Bosses (Dungeons). Because the soul's like, Monster Hunter combat itself is always asked to be mastered. Teamwork to be had between the DPS'ers AND the bosses always have 4x the healthpool because they are meant to be killed by 4 players.
This means even in low level content there is fun to be had (unlike WoW where u one shot all trash and bosses due to level disparity)

DISCALIMER:

IM NOT SAYING "WoW's Combat is crap"
IM SAYING:

Action combat in WoW WOULD open up a lot of possibilities, teamworks, social dynamics, fun interactions and possible different ways to play the game.
And i think with tab target we are stuck in time with no possibility for innovation in COMBAT ways to play the game with different social dynamics.


What do you think?

yes. while i think your solution is the problem solver. I do think its holding it back a bit. But dracther casting thing, and moving gives me hope.

[Selah]

This is going to come down to player preference. There's no objective measure here to temper your argument with. There is challenging combat in both forms and people like what they like.

[LalaGamer]

Did YOU?

Vanilla is an absolute joke. Completely clueless idiots could go into raids and kill bosses with 1-button-spam rotations.

How do I know?

I WAS ONE OF THOSE IDIOTS.

It's not even comparable to today's game, not in any way, shape, or form. And I mean that - it's silly to try and compare WoW across eras, because things are just way too different on so many levels. You can SOMEWHAT compare Vanilla-Wrath, Cata-Mop, and Legion-SL as distinct periods (arguably DF is the beginning of the next one) but comparing across is just going to lead to massive incongruities.

WoW's combat paradigm of tab-target hotkey-based gameplay has remained somewhat constant, though. And that's a good thing. It gives WoW a very distinct, very controlled feel - it's far more about the decisions you make rather than your reaction time and manual dexterity like action-based combat tends to be (in PvE anyway, PvP might be different idk). That allows for high encounter complexity and difficulty without being overly punishing on player performance in a way that requires massive amounts of high-intensity gameplay. Looking at what that does to people in e.g. RTS or FPS games, we should all be glad that it's a very different kind of combat.

And of course there's the technical side of things to consider, where gameplay effectively paced by 1-second GCD intervals means you can be much more stringent about client-server stuff, and have a much more precise experience. New World tried to do action combat in an MMO and had to shift more stuff to the client because of it - the result was rampant abuse and exploitation. WoW's secure architecture isn't without its downsides, but it delivers what's arguably the best MMO raid/dungeon experience ever made, and the combat design is a big part of it.

Well apparently you didn't get any smarter because i didn't ask you.

[nvaelz]

Thing is in a Vanilla BG I might get 1shot by some random rogue but I'd damn for sure be able to "based on my activity as a player" hit high scores of dps on the leaderboards, now come SL and worse, DF and it's really evened out because now -

Our dps abilities are buildup combo point abilities that do noodle dmg unless comboed with the big cd rotation each class has, nah I don't see WoW's combat being superior as it's been evolved into some casual feelgood fiesta where everyone just cycles through a predetermined combo setup by Blizzard, I much prefered when the game was visceral about reaction timings, positioning, resources such as rage/energy/mana having higher impact.

Game is trash now, and will be trash later aswell unless they realize that the combat of WoW was what made WoW such a great success in the first place, ruining it like it has been sure gives bad players and m+ brains a reason to play but I'd much rather spam frostbolts on ragnaros (yeah really simple and stupid, but atleast then a frost bolt did big dmg, not like how it is now where everything is a noddle on a combo stick).


Now hey, this new combat system is GREAT for m+ competitive play, it's alot deeper because the tiny twigs on the comboing branches are further expanded making it harder to output properly, and I've enjoyed m+ more in DF than atleast SL but it's just a sickening reminder that the game is different now.


Let me explain again so maybe you can get my point of view clearly through a subjective experience.

In DF when I try to compete for first place on DPS in a regular/epic BG then if I hit first place as I often do, I'll barely have beaten 2nd/3rd/4th place etc,

the amount of time players have to play is insane, it's all about fatfingering big cds, back in Vanilla you either clapped or died instantly, I much preferd that because that was closer to skill, albeit often frustrating being 1shot, but now it's IMPOSSIBLE to outreact anyone because everyone is automatically powerful, DF is literally designed for bad players to be wheelchaired around.

[Biomega]

Well apparently you didn't get any smarter because i didn't ask you.

If you don't want people to take you to task on terrible takes, don't give terrible takes on a public forum. Everything anyone posts on here is open for critique from anyone else. That's how forums work.

This is going to come down to player preference. There's no objective measure here to temper your argument with. There is challenging combat in both forms and people like what they like.

To a degree it is preference, absolutely. But you can make objective statements about it, too - like the technical aspect of it, say, that facilitates a safe server-client architecture that's not possible with more action-y combat requiring faster response times. The reality of communications ping means there's an effective hard cap on what you can do in terms of real response time (simply because signals can't travel faster than the speed of light, and have to go both ways). There may be ways to fiddle with it via predictive models, but for the time being at least the kind of precise positioning and movement that WoW often requires - where a single step left or right in a raid may be the difference between kill or wipe - can't really be done the same way with a more client-based architecture that has longer update intervals. WoW's combat pacing is quite deliberate, and it would be extraordinarily difficult if not impossible to have that kind of architecture with a more fluid, more "action-y" combat style the way it's often seen in e.g. single-player games. It only works with less secure, more client-heavy architectures, and New World demonstrated quite effectively how that can lead to massive problems in an MMO.

Whether you LIKE it or not is a different question, and I agree that there's a lot of room for preference - but there's also objective advantages to WoW's combat working like it does, whether people like the resulting combat or not.

[Shuttle]

Combat is the thing keeping the game above water.

[anon5123]

The fuck are you talking about? Vanilla was a zergfest. Raids require more coordination now than ever before

Coordinating 40 people is harder than coordinating 10-20.

Vanilla content is only a "zergfest" for the sweaty speedrun guilds that stack 20 dps warriors and kill every boss in 10 seconds. And this really only applies to MC and maybe half of BWL; AQ40 and Naxx cannot be "zerged" in the same way outside of the top 0.5% of speedrun guilds that make it their entire life to speedrun the game.

[LalaGamer]

Coordinating 40 people is harder than coordinating 10-20.

Vanilla content is only a "zergfest" for the sweaty speedrun guilds that stack 20 dps warriors and kill every boss in 10 seconds. And this really only applies to MC and maybe half of BWL; AQ40 and Naxx cannot be "zerged" in the same way outside of the top 0.5% of speedrun guilds that make it their entire life to speedrun the game.

Let's not forget the horrible world bosses it had.

[Mysterymask]

Coordinating 40 people is harder than coordinating 10-20.

Vanilla content is only a "zergfest" for the sweaty speedrun guilds that stack 20 dps warriors and kill every boss in 10 seconds. And this really only applies to MC and maybe half of BWL; AQ40 and Naxx cannot be "zerged" in the same way outside of the top 0.5% of speedrun guilds that make it their entire life to speedrun the game.

You're basically saying vanilla is hard if you don't play well?

That can be applied to any game

[shane brannigan]

Yeah I prefer wow's combat.

Could you imagine how bad wow would be with monster hunter combat, like the flitching.
Imagine 25 man raid wiping because nobody used a gem socket on flitch free and they just get stun locked by a fury warrior.

[Linkedblade]

What do you think?

The combat in wow is the most polished experience. It separates wow from many of it's contemporaries. Other games like swtor launched with seemingly terrible combat, it was far too clunky, and animations were long.

But it's not the other companies' fault, wow has and had years of refining. You can't compete with that. Hell even bigger games like Amazon's New World can't really compete.