Why did a minority of orcs continue to follow Garrosh?

[SilverLion]

That's just a justification to excuse him and nothing else. Garrosh could have taken those initial criticisms to heart, weighed them, and actually had a conversation with his interlocutors such as Vol'jin and Cairne. In short, he could've learned from his mistakes as opposed to doubling down on them over, and over, and over. Hell, he could've even sat down with Thrall to discuss Thrall's philosophy on why the Horde had settled in Durotar and on a path of austerity and racial penance for their crimes on Draenor. At any point Garrosh could've chosen not just diplomacy, but the actual process of learning and growing. But he doesn't, he instead makes enemies of critics and treats any criticism as if it were an assault on his person. He does this as much in WotLK as he does in Cata, too. Thrall's main failing in this calculus isn't "abandoning" Garrosh, it was making him Warchief in the first place - a fact that Garrosh himself, in a rare display of introspection, even calls him out on before meekly accepting the mantle.

Just want to call attention to why the Garrosh WoD cutscene hit so hard for people who liked him like me. It was absolutely the most self aware he had ever been. It was almost sad. Thrall said he chose his own destiny which is absolutely true, but Thrall had no business making him Warchief in the first place. And Garrosh knew it from the start.

[Varodoc]

Just want to call attention to why the Garrosh WoD cutscene hit so hard for people who liked him like me. It was absolutely the most self aware he had ever been. It was almost sad. Thrall said he chose his own destiny which is absolutely true, but Thrall had no business making him Warchief in the first place. And Garrosh knew it from the start.

Not really, Thrall made the best possible choice at the time.

Had he chosen Cairne or Vol'jin, they would have been unpopular with the Orcs, who comprise the main bulk/force of the Horde.

Had Dranosh Saurfang survived the Wrathgate, Thrall would have chosen him instead. But then there would be no conflict, no story, since Dranosh Saurfang is basically a Perfect version of Garrosh Hellscream. Mag'har pureblood, honourable, strong, popular, without the genocidal tendencies and daddy issues. The writers HAD to kill Saurfang at the Wrathgate, there was no other choice.

Who was Thrall supposed to make Warchief?

Cairne or Vol'jin? Too unpopular with the Orcs.

Eitrigg or Saurfang? Too old.

Sylvanas or Lor'themar? Too different and distant (literally) from the Kalimdor Horde (which is why Warchief Sylvanas is genuinely the most nonsensical lore development of WoW in the 2010s, it literally makes 0 sense).

Thrall made the best possible decision at the time, and he also planned to have Eitrigg, Cairne, and Vol'jin counsel Garrosh.

Unironically, Thrall did nothing wrong. He did what he thought was best for the Horde. Garrosh was the best possible choice to keep the Horde together during the wreckage of the Cataclysm and the war with the Alliance. Thrall made the correct call, it's not his fault that Garrosh never listened to the advisory board Thrall left him with.

[SilverLion]

Not really, Thrall made the best possible choice at the time.

Had he chosen Cairne or Vol'jin, they would have been unpopular with the Orcs, who comprise the main bulk/force of the Horde.

Had Dranosh Saurfang survived the Wrathgate, Thrall would have chosen him instead. But then there would be no conflict, no story, since Dranosh Saurfang is basically a Perfect version of Garrosh Hellscream. Mag'har pureblood, honourable, strong, popular, without the genocidal tendencies and daddy issues. The writers HAD to kill Saurfang at the Wrathgate, there was no other choice.

Who was Thrall supposed to make Warchief?

Cairne or Vol'jin? Too unpopular with the Orcs.

Eitrigg or Saurfang? Too old.

Sylvanas or Lor'themar? Too different and distant (literally) from the Kalimdor Horde (which is why Warchief Sylvanas is genuinely the most nonsensical lore development of WoW in the 2010s, it literally makes 0 sense).

Thrall made the best possible decision at the time, and he also planned to have Eitrigg, Cairne, and Vol'jin counsel Garrosh.

Unironically, Thrall did nothing wrong. He did what he thought was best for the Horde. Garrosh was the best possible choice to keep the Horde together during the wreckage of the Cataclysm and the war with the Alliance. Thrall made the correct call, it's not his fault that Garrosh never listened to the advisory board Thrall left him with.

Way to entirely miss the story beat. Like it went way over your head. Well done.

You want to debate hypotheticals and meta analysis. Thrall made a mistake by putting someone unready for leadership into a leadership role. It doesn't matter what you personally think of the story, THAT is the point of what Garrosh is talking about. Garrosh is admitting to the audience, that Thrall fucked up. And Thrall straight up acknowledges it himself. He's so hurt by his own role in all of it he loses his connection with the Elements during Legion and is unable to wield the Doomhammer. This is the lore, not my personal opinion. And i wasn't asking for yours.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Not really, Thrall made the best possible choice at the time.

Had he chosen Cairne or Vol'jin, they would have been unpopular with the Orcs, who comprise the main bulk/force of the Horde.

Had Dranosh Saurfang survived the Wrathgate, Thrall would have chosen him instead. But then there would be no conflict, no story, since Dranosh Saurfang is basically a Perfect version of Garrosh Hellscream. Mag'har pureblood, honourable, strong, popular, without the genocidal tendencies and daddy issues.

Who was Thrall supposed to make Warchief?

Cairne or Vol'jin? Too unpopular with the Orcs.

Eitrigg or Saurfang? Too old.

Sylvanas or Lor'themar? Too different and distant (literally) from the Kalimdor Horde (which is why Warchief Sylvanas is genuinely the most nonsensical lore development of WoW in the 2010s, it literally makes 0 sense).

Thrall made the best possible decision at the time, and he also planned to have Eitrigg, Cairne, and Vol'jin counsel Garrosh.

Unironically, Thrall did nothing wrong. He did what he thought was best for the Horde.

Even an old Orc would have been a much better choice than Garrosh, even if Eitrigg or Saurfang wouldn't have been that popular they still had years of experience and the wisdow and maturity that Garrosh cruelly lacked, and most of all would have been far more diplomatic than him. Choosing an impatient, brash, hot-headed, bellicose and undiplomatic individual such as Garrosh to be the head of a multi-racial coalition and whose main advisors and allies were non-orcs was not a good idea at all.

[Aucald]

Just want to call attention to why the Garrosh WoD cutscene hit so hard for people who liked him like me. It was absolutely the most self aware he had ever been. It was almost sad. Thrall said he chose his own destiny which is absolutely true, but Thrall had no business making him Warchief in the first place. And Garrosh knew it from the start.

And yet, Garrosh still accepted the mantle - Thrall isn't responsible for Garrosh's actions afterward, only Garrosh is. I agree Thrall was wrong to push that mantle onto him, but Garrosh bears responsibility for still accepting it despite his reservations, and for his decisions after the fact which pointedly ran counter to Thrall's sage advice. There's a lot of sadness to Garrosh's ultimate arc, most especially when he dies raging at his surrogate father for "abandoning him," which he isn't wrong about, but is unfortunately right for the wrong reasons. Thrall himself didn't really understand the full weight of his role in Garrosh's life as that replacement father figure, either - which makes sense, too; as Thrall also never had a father in his own life.

[Varodoc]

Way to entirely miss the story beat. Like it went way over your head. Well done.

Pray Tell, what is that "story beat"? Garrosh being delusional and blaming Thrall for making the correct choice?

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Even an old Orc would have been a much better choice than Garrosh, even if Eitrigg or Saurfang wouldn't have been that popular they still had years of experience and the wisdow and maturity that Garrosh cruelly lacked, and most of all would have been far more diplomatic than him. Choosing an impatient, brash, hot-headed, bellicose and undiplomatic individual such as Garrosh to be the head of a multi-racial coalition and whose main advisors and allies were non-orcs was not a good idea at all.

No, an old orc would not be a better choice over Garrosh.

The Warchief must be young. Eitrigg and Saurfang are too old for the position.

Thrall is cunning and knew this. He knows his Horde, because he founded it.

[Aucald]

Unironically, Thrall did nothing wrong. He did what he thought was best for the Horde. Garrosh was the best possible choice to keep the Horde together during the wreckage of the Cataclysm and the war with the Alliance. Thrall made the correct call, it's not his fault that Garrosh never listened to the advisory board Thrall left him with.

Thrall could've had his council serve as the interim leaders while he away in Outland - with both Garrosh and Saurfang present to represent the orcs. The best pick to serve as a singular Warchief would've been Cairne based on both seniority and disposition. There's no evidence at all that the orcs universally or generally disliked Cairne, and as an interim pick, I think he would've been fine.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Pray Tell, what is that "story beat"? Garrosh being delusional and blaming Thrall for making the correct choice?

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No, an old orc would not be a better choice over Garrosh.

The Warchief must be young. Eitrigg and Saurfang are too old for the position.

Thrall is cunning and knew this. He knows his Horde, because he founded it.

Nothing says that the warchief must be young, Doomhammer certainely wasn't young when he met Thrall and named him his successor. And a warchief above all has to be pragmatic and diplomatic to be able of properly leading and dealing with the various races of the Horde and manage the tensions with the Alliance.

[Varodoc]

Thrall could've had his council serve as the interim leaders while he away in Outland - with both Garrosh and Saurfang present to represent the orcs. The best pick to serve as a singular Warchief would've been Cairne based on both seniority and disposition. There's no evidence at all that the orcs universally or generally disliked Cairne, and as an interim pick, I think he would've been fine.

If Garrosh was just an "interim" replacement, why the blood oath should bind the orcs to Garrosh (mere interim replacement) over Thrall?

Nothing says that the warchief must be young, Doomhammer certainely wasn't young when he met Thrall and named him his successor. And a warchief above all has to be pragmatic and diplomatic to be able of properly leading and dealing with the various races of the Horde and manage the tensions with the Alliance.

When a giant dragon just broke the world and tensions with the Alliance are at an all-time high, who do you want to be the face of the Horde?

A senile old orc just barely clinging onto life? Or a young Orc with much potential?

It's common sense.

[Aucald]

If Garrosh was just an "interim" replacement, why the blood oath should bind the orcs to Garrosh (mere interim replacement) over Thrall?

Hard to say - beyond its binding nature, there's very little known about how the Blood Oath of the Horde is implemented, how it transfers, and whether it is part and parcel of the person of Warchief of the office or powers of the office of Warchief. Garrosh was made the de-facto Warchief in Thrall's stead, even if the transfer of power was meant to be initially temporary, and Thrall himself never elected to take back the mantle and may well have formally bestowed it later on when he chose to become the World Shaman and leader of the Earthen Ring. In a way, you could say it is up to every citizen of the Horde to decide on how they choose to view the Oath - binding them either to the Warchief they swore it to, or the office of Warchief and whoever currently is in that office.

[Ironhorn]

He didn't attack Anduin he struck the bell which broke and fell on him.

As for why they kept following him they made an oath to follow him keeping to your oath is a cornerstone of the Orcish way. Nazgrim himself didnt want to do the things he did but he had too keep to his oath. In the Horde version he is glad we stand against and defeat him knowing the Horde was in good hands with us.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

If Garrosh was just an "interim" replacement, why the blood oath should bind the orcs to Garrosh (mere interim replacement) over Thrall?




When a giant dragon just broke the world and tensions with the Alliance are at an all-time high, who do you want to be the face of the Horde?

A senile old orc just barely clinging onto life? Or a young Orc with much potential?

It's common sense.

An experienced orc with all of his mind left, who has proven both his martial and diplomatic skills, and is far more mature, reasonnable and wiser than a wild hothead such as Garrosh.

[SilverLion]

And yet, Garrosh still accepted the mantle - Thrall isn't responsible for Garrosh's actions afterward, only Garrosh is. I agree Thrall was wrong to push that mantle onto him, but Garrosh bears responsibility for still accepting it despite his reservations, and for his decisions after the fact which pointedly ran counter to Thrall's sage advice. There's a lot of sadness to Garrosh's ultimate arc, most especially when he dies raging at his surrogate father for "abandoning him," which he isn't wrong about, but is unfortunately right for the wrong reasons. Thrall himself didn't really understand the full weight of his role in Garrosh's life as that replacement father figure, either - which makes sense, too; as Thrall also never had a father in his own life.

Oh I totally agree that ultimately, Garrosh is responsible for his actions after that, don't get me wrong. I'm just acknowledging and signal boosting the story beat that somewhere, deep inside himself, Garrosh knew he'd fucked up by accepting the job in the first place and that Thrall, his "adopted dad" had done him a disservice by thrusting too much responsibility on him before he was ready.

It's pretty common irl, when it comes to parents and their expectations. They don't always realize they might have been wrong about their own child until their child is an adult and knee deep in trouble.

Pray Tell, what is that "story beat"? Garrosh being delusional and blaming Thrall for making the correct choice?

Read the post I was quoting. Garrosh and Thrall, together acknowledging that Thrall was at fault for putting too much on him before he was ready. Thrall knew it. Garrosh knew it. Garrosh shouldn't have accepted the role, knowing that he wasn't ready but his daddy issues were way too OP. You've asserted a bunch of headcanon as fact again. Headcanon based on out of universe hindsight might I add. Thrall had a suspicion thanks to Cairne that Garrosh might be too immature for the leadership positioning and basically just said "he'll grow out of it". Garrosh did not. Should he have? Definitely. But the fact that Thrall knew that it could be a problem is what I was talking about. And that Garrosh deep down knew it too. It's the only real moment of self awareness Garrosh has in his entire arc. He never admits to being wrong, or unfit, or in over his head and he blamed everyone else. Even here, he's still blaming other people instead of just saying it outright, but at least in this specific instance, he's not wrong.

[Varodoc]

An experienced orc with all of his mind left, who has proven both his martial and diplomatic skills, and is far more mature, reasonnable and wiser than a wild hothead such as Garrosh.

Again, too old.

Thrall left behind an advisory board comprised of Saurfang, Eitrigg, Cairne, and Vol'jin to advise Garrosh.

IN HINDSIGHT, we can say that Thrall could have predicted the possibility that the advisors would clash with Garrosh.

But Thrall knew that Garrosh felt unprepared for the job, that is why he reassured him that he would be given advisors to help him deal with politics/diplomacy.

On the military side, Garrosh was the hero who led the Horde expedition to victory against the Scourge in Northrend. Not Saurfang (he was just an advisor). Garrosh. The Orcs loved Garrosh because he led the Horde expedition to victory in Northrend, so Thrall knew that Garrosh would be able to defend the Horde from the threats and also to encourage the Orcs to fight.

Thrall made the correct decision with the info he had at the time. Things simply spiralled out of his control once he was gone. He couldn't possibly have foreseen Garrosh and his advisors clashing to such a degree.