What is the deal with Nourish?

[gamhacked]

I've been searching high and low for an explanation as to why every druid and his mother is taking Cenarion Ward in Mythics instead of Nourish. I just don't get why Nourish is considered so bad.

Why take a 27% uptime HoT (which I have nothing against) in place of a heal that is often 3 times as powerful as regrowth on the tank? How do you even keep a tank taking chunks of damage alive with Regrowth as your only spot heal?

I would really appreciate some insight here... I am not averse to picking the best talent, but I just don't understand why Cenarion Ward is considered such a must.

[ParanoiD84]

Mana cost would be my guess, it's 18% base mana to cast.

[gamhacked]

Mana cost would be my guess, it's 18% base mana to cast.

It's 100 more than Regrowth... That's almost negligible. I feel way more mana efficient with Nourish.

[Dakara]

Cenarion Ward counts as a HoT for Mastery purposes meaning it buffs all your Heals on the Tank.
Cenarion Ward is another HoT for Photosynthesis to proc Blooms on the Tank.
Switmend buffs your Regrowths by 200% on a 15 Sec CD (Soul of the Forest Talent)
Nature's Switness buffs Regrowth by 100% on a 1 min CD and makes it Instant.
Regrowth has an additional 40% chance to crit if the Target already has a Regrowth HoT.
Regrowth places a HoT on your Target for a further Mastery buff.

Basically, Nourish is a strong heal yes, but it just isn't needed.
If your Tank is taking so much damage that you need to Spam Nourish the keep them alive, then either your Tanks not using their DR, you've forgotten to keeps HoT's rolling on them for Mastery and/or Forgotten to use Bark.... or you're simply pushing content that's above your and/or the Tanks gear level.

On Paper, Nourish looks good as a "Tank Heal", but it actually isn't if you're using all your tools correctly.
Remember, Druids aren't spot healers. If you've gotten into a situation where you need to Spam Regrowth on the Tank only to fall behind and wish you'd taken Nourish, something's gone wrong.

-edit-

For Raids, you do rely more on other Healers for Tank healing, but here I run with Abundance to buff Regrowth since I'll always have plenty of Rejuv's spread around. Again, combined with most of the above (I don't run Soul of the Forest or Photosynthesis in Raids), Regrowth can be buffed enough if I find myself needing to spot heal.

[GreenJesus]

I've been searching high and low for an explanation as to why every druid and his mother is taking Cenarion Ward in Mythics instead of Nourish. I just don't get why Nourish is considered so bad.

Why take a 27% uptime HoT (which I have nothing against) in place of a heal that is often 3 times as powerful as regrowth on the tank? How do you even keep a tank taking chunks of damage alive with Regrowth as your only spot heal?

I would really appreciate some insight here... I am not averse to picking the best talent, but I just don't understand why Cenarion Ward is considered such a must.

Let your local holy paladin worry about the tank/spot healing.

[gamhacked]

Let your local holy paladin worry about the tank/spot healing.

If you read my post you will see I said "in Mythics".

Cenarion Ward counts as a HoT for Mastery purposes meaning it buffs all your Heals on the Tank.
Cenarion Ward is another HoT for Photosynthesis to proc Blooms on the Tank.
Switmend buffs your Regrowths by 200% on a 15 Sec CD (Soul of the Forest Talent)
Nature's Switness buffs Regrowth by 100% on a 1 min CD and makes it Instant.
Regrowth has an additional 40% chance to crit if the Target already has a Regrowth HoT.
Regrowth places a HoT on your Target for a further Mastery buff.

I appreciate all that, but it's kind of meaningless because at the end of the day, a single Nourish on your tank will heal more than a Cenarion Ward--I'm pretty sure that's even if you include the Harmony bonus it gives to your other spells for 8 seconds--and it has no cooldown. And you're basically always going to throw it on a tank, and even if you don't, you can use Nourish on any target with Lifebloom and Rejuvenation and it will still heal twice what Regrowth heals.

Basically, Nourish is a strong heal yes, but it just isn't needed.
If your Tank is taking so much damage that you need to Spam Nourish the keep them alive, then either your Tanks not using their DR, you've forgotten to keeps HoT's rolling on them for Mastery and/or Forgotten to use Bark.... or you're simply pushing content that's above your and/or the Tanks gear level.

In Mythic+? When you're doing a Mythic 10-15 you don't need tank healing throughput? Who is going to heal the tank then? Or are you saying the tank will kite the boss? My HoTs alone are nowhere near enough to keep a tank alive when he's taking hits for 30-40% of his health from the boss or as much per second from a trash pack. Regrowth + Cenarion Ward is enough but that's for 8 seconds, and ultimately it's less mana efficient because of how much Nourish heals for.

Let me put it this way... Why do you need Cenarion Ward in Mythic+?

[Trigath]

Taking cenarion ward also lets you have more uptime on damage, whether you are catweaving or fatchickenweaving. Leaving another strong HoT that would benefit from mastery while also having an increased chance on blooms with photosynthesis is pretty good. Instead of casting nourish, you would be casting damage spells. In the end, if mobs die quicker, you have to do less healing.

However I can agree on one thing, with low haste values that we have today, dealing damage in between might be either tedious or hard to pull off without dropping your HoTs. So if healing is your only focus and if you think that you have better results with Nourish, go for it!

[Delekii]

It's not just cast per cast that matters. Cenarian ward is essentially GCD free since you can pre apply it and buffs everything else you do for a period of time. Even if you make the argument that nourish is strictly better from a patchwork throughput sense, it still has a place in the toolkit that just isn't needed, whereas cenarian ward has very low opportunity cost and abundance has none.

If you're in a position where you need to sit there and turret the tank repeatedly and other party members aren't just at permanent risk of falling over dead, your tank is likely missing something. There aren't a whole lot of situations in m+ where the tank just gets trucked when a mechanic hasn't been missed.

[Soilx3]

In Mythic+? When you're doing a Mythic 10-15 you don't need tank healing throughput? Who is going to heal the tank then? Or are you saying the tank will kite the boss? My HoTs alone are nowhere near enough to keep a tank alive when he's taking hits for 30-40% of his health from the boss or as much per second from a trash pack. Regrowth + Cenarion Ward is enough but that's for 8 seconds, and ultimately it's less mana efficient because of how much Nourish heals for.

Let me put it this way... Why do you need Cenarion Ward in Mythic+?

Tanks should definitely kite a lot outside of cooldowns in high m+. Tank's hp generally shouldn't be going up and down like a rollercoaster continuously, if the tank is taking super heavy hits constantly he has to kite or use cooldowns more effectively.

[VinceVega]

I've been searching high and low for an explanation as to why every druid and his mother is taking Cenarion Ward in Mythics instead of Nourish. I just don't get why Nourish is considered so bad.

Why take a 27% uptime HoT (which I have nothing against) in place of a heal that is often 3 times as powerful as regrowth on the tank? How do you even keep a tank taking chunks of damage alive with Regrowth as your only spot heal?

I would really appreciate some insight here... I am not averse to picking the best talent, but I just don't understand why Cenarion Ward is considered such a must.

The healing of nourish is no that much better than regrowth (which also gives the target a hot) to make it viabal.
CW is just better in nearly every scenario. And it heals more while also benefits from Mastery.

The missing CD on Noursih is no argument as you should not be that often in a situation where you need direct heals. IF you have to spam it ther is something seriously going wrong.

[escalprillo]

Taking cenarion ward also lets you have more uptime on damage, whether you are catweaving or fatchickenweaving. Leaving another strong HoT that would benefit from mastery while also having an increased chance on blooms with photosynthesis is pretty good. Instead of casting nourish, you would be casting damage spells. In the end, if mobs die quicker, you have to do less healing.

However I can agree on one thing, with low haste values that we have today, dealing damage in between might be either tedious or hard to pull off without dropping your HoTs. So if healing is your only focus and if you think that you have better results with Nourish, go for it!

my chicken ain't fat! stop fat shaming it T_T

[gamhacked]

Appreciate all the feedback guys. I'm finally getting some good answers.

The healing of nourish is no that much better than regrowth (which also gives the target a hot) to make it viabal.
CW is just better in nearly every scenario. And it heals more while also benefits from Mastery.

The missing CD on Noursih is no argument as you should not be that often in a situation where you need direct heals. IF you have to spam it ther is something seriously going wrong.

Okay, so I just tested this on myself... With the following HotS on myself:

* Lifebloom
* Rejuvenation
* Regrowth
* Spring Blossoms
* Efflorescence

The heals were:
* Regrowth: 3482
* Nourish: 6302

Nourish healed for 80% more.

If I add Wild Growth to this, I get:
* Regrowth: 3874
* Nourish: 7401

Nourish healed for 91% more.

If I opt for Germination and add a 2nd Rejuvenation, I get:
* Regrowth: 4018
* Nourish: 7985

Nourish heals for 99% more.

If I also add Tranquility, I get:
* Regrowth: 4421
* Nourish: 9216

Nourish heals for 108% more.

So I think it's not unreasonable -- on a target taking a lot of damage -- to see a near-100% improvement in the per-cast heal of Nourish over Regrowth. If you factor in that Regrowth casts in 70% of the time, then it approaches Nourish in HP/s, but then becomes far less efficient as it costs almost as much mana.

All that said, it's indeed possible that the tanks (and other members) I play with don't play optimally and may force me to heal more than would otherwise be needed.

[VinceVega]

Appreciate all the feedback guys. I'm finally getting some good answers.



Okay, so I just tested this on myself... With the following HotS on myself:

* Lifebloom
* Rejuvenation
* Regrowth
* Spring Blossoms
* Efflorescence

The heals were:
* Regrowth: 3482
* Nourish: 6302

Nourish healed for 80% more.

If I add Wild Growth to this, I get:
* Regrowth: 3874
* Nourish: 7401

Nourish healed for 91% more.

If I opt for Germination and add a 2nd Rejuvenation, I get:
* Regrowth: 4018
* Nourish: 7985

Nourish heals for 99% more.

If I also add Tranquility, I get:
* Regrowth: 4421
* Nourish: 9216

Nourish heals for 108% more.

So I think it's not unreasonable -- on a target taking a lot of damage -- to see a near-100% improvement in the per-cast heal of Nourish over Regrowth. If you factor in that Regrowth casts in 70% of the time, then it approaches Nourish in HP/s, but then becomes far less efficient as it costs almost as much mana.

All that said, it's indeed possible that the tanks (and other members) I play with don't play optimally and may force me to heal more than would otherwise be needed.

Go on the Dreamgrove Discord channel they will explain it too you better than i can.

The general opinion is, that nourish is not NEEDED if you play right. Not that it does not heal okish.
You should nearly never be in a situation where you are supposed to spam Regrowth or Nourish in the first place.

That is why it is a bad choice. SImple as that. The other two are simply better one because of mastery the other because of manamanagement.

Edit: You can play with it if you think you play better with it. It is a choice after all^^ And it won't kill you too use nourish. Well.. probably^^

[Asrialol]

If you need to spam cast a heal on a tank for him to survive, either you're doing something wrong, the tank is doing something wrong or ???.

Cenarion ward is instant, meaning you can spend less time casting heals and more time doing damage or healing other people. It also buffs all other healing you do on the target.

There is no reason to take Nourish for mythic dungeons or m+. Ever. It's not bad, it's just situationally inferior to CW.

[gamhacked]

Go on the Dreamgrove Discord channel they will explain it too you better than i can.

The general opinion is, that nourish is not NEEDED if you play right. Not that it does not heal okish.
You should nearly never be in a situation where you are supposed to spam Regrowth or Nourish in the first place.

That is why it is a bad choice. SImple as that. The other two are simply better one because of mastery the other because of manamanagement.

Edit: You can play with it if you think you play better with it. It is a choice after all^^ And it won't kill you too use nourish. Well.. probably^^

The truth is I really enjoy playing it. It keeps me accountable with my HoTs. =) I enjoy having the spot heal for when I need it. I wish Blizzard just put it into the base kit and got it done with. This talent tier doesn't feel like a well thought-out design choice.

But thanks for the info! I definitely feel like I have more to work with now in my decisions.

- - - Updated - - -

If you need to spam cast a heal on a tank for him to survive, either you're doing something wrong, the tank is doing something wrong or ???.

Cenarion ward is instant, meaning you can spend less time casting heals and more time doing damage or healing other people. It also buffs all other healing you do on the target.

There is no reason to take Nourish for mythic dungeons or m+. Ever. It's not bad, it's just situationally inferior to CW.

It's instant, which means you can cast it while moving, but that's it. It incurs a global cooldown, which means you have to wait for that to finish before you can do anything else. In that regard -- assuming you can stand still during that time -- it is no different from a heal with a casting time equal to your GCD, unless you pre-cast it, which you can only do out of combat, and which may waste some of its healing depending on how much damage the tank takes in the 8 seconds following entering combat.

[VinceVega]

The truth is I really enjoy playing it. It keeps me accountable with my HoTs. =) I enjoy having the spot heal for when I need it. I wish Blizzard just put it into the base kit and got it done with. This talent tier doesn't feel like a well thought-out design choice.

But thanks for the info! I definitely feel like I have more to work with now in my decisions.

- - - Updated - - -



It's instant, which means you can cast it while moving, but that's it. It incurs a global cooldown, which means you have to wait for that to finish before you can do anything else. In that regard -- assuming you can stand still during that time -- it is no different from a heal with a casting time equal to your GCD, unless you pre-cast it, which you can only do out of combat, and which may waste some of its healing depending on how much damage the tank takes in the 8 seconds following entering combat.

They can't. Druids are better than the other healers in Mythic+ allready. That would put them over the top. But like said. Not needed anyway.
I switch regularly between the other two choices depending on the fight and content i do. Like both of them.

I Raid Nourish would be wa to mana consuming anyway to use.

[gamhacked]

They can't. Druids are better than the other healers in Mythic+ allready. That would put them over the top. But like said. Not needed anyway.
I switch regularly between the other two choices depending on the fight and content i do. Like both of them.

I Raid Nourish would be wa to mana consuming anyway to use.

So they've added a spell that's "useless" in Mythics, PvP, and Raiding. Colossal fail. They could easily fix this by making it core and adding a new talent tier choice.

[erifwodahs]

In Mythic+? When you're doing a Mythic 10-15 you don't need tank healing throughput? Who is going to heal the tank then? Or are you saying the tank will kite the boss? My HoTs alone are nowhere near enough to keep a tank alive when he's taking hits for 30-40% of his health from the boss or as much per second from a trash pack. Regrowth + Cenarion Ward is enough but that's for 8 seconds, and ultimately it's less mana efficient because of how much Nourish heals for.

Let me put it this way... Why do you need Cenarion Ward in Mythic+?

Tank here. You don't get hit that much on bosses besides abilities, which are 10sec cooldown at least or it has a mechanical solution (manastorms) . If trash is hitting tank that much it's supposed to be kited as much as I hate it. I have yet to do high SoA, but I don't expect tank damage from regular hits to be anything more than a fraction on what trash packs does. Keeping party alive is harder.

[Asrialol]

Most of the responses you're getting here are from high end players playing in coordinated groups, where the comment "The tank should never be taking damage that requires you to spam nourish" is a common response. However, if you play casually or in pugs, that's not always applicable, because those groups are a lot less coordinated and tanks will take massive damage all the time. In that case, a spell like nourish is helpful to have.

What's best for the high end isn't always best for casuals playing with less skilled players.

The thing is though, Nourish needs some set up before it's actually useful. Using it when there's no hots on the person is a waste. CW is useful not only on the tank, but to help heal incoming damage on the party, since the buff lasts 30 sec until the target takes damage.

Having Nourish instead of CW will most likely not make a unhealable tank healable.

For m+ I'd probably take Abundance over Nourish, if for some reason I didn't want to take CW.

You can easily do m+ and have Nourish be your top heal, but that doesn't mean it's more effective than having CW.

[VinceVega]

So they've added a spell that's "useless" in Mythics, PvP, and Raiding. Colossal fail. They could easily fix this by making it core and adding a new talent tier choice.

It is not useless. Just not top.

There is always a dead talent. Perfect balance will never happen.
But it is not dead. As apparantly at least one druid is using it