Stat Priority come 4.3 for Holy Paladins.

[kiristus]

I've been on the PTR since it's release testing stats and their direct involvement with my throughput. Specifically, Haste and Mastery. I've had a hunch that mastery would be better since the change to Holy Radiance was announced but I knew that the amount of mastery required to be superior to haste would be a some-what high number, and with knowing this, I knew I couldn't completely take haste out of the equation either, because it is just too much of an important stat.. after doing some instances when Holy Radiance started to grant Holy Power correctly, I felt the amount of mastery I would need to make this change and for it to be a noticeable one, I'd need a decent bubble left behind by my heals.. I thought 20% would be a nice place to start at, since it was double the amount given to all holy paladins with 0 mastery rating. After testing my heals with Recount on the PTR I didn't really feel the jump was all THAT noticeable.. So I tried for 30, it's triple the amount of mastery that a paladin with 0 mastery rating would have so I felt it'd be the change I was looking for. I could only get to 25% mastery though, but even that 5% jump from 20 to 25 pushed Illuminated healing up on the charts to be actually the second biggest contribution to my heals on a heavy AE encounter, I.e Morchok but I felt that my heals weren't as potent as I felt they'd be if I had the haste I had in 4.2 and no chance was made to Holy Radiance.. so I changed a few gems and enchants, maintained my 25% absorbs from mastery and ended up with ~920 haste rating. I've been testing ever since then and haven't stopped. While I don't possess any excessive and extremely detailed screen shots of my healing done and my hps ect,ect.... It's what I've been doing. Honestly.. just get on to the PTR and try it for your self Tatsu rather than requiring me to give you proof of something that is better for your HPS and throughput, take the initiative and test it on your own. I'm not going to post extensive mathematical equations to prove my point. If I was going to do that I would have labeled the forum post "Stat priority in 4.3, proof that my method is better."
I instead opened with my idea, and asked for some suggestions or constructive feedback, you've been unable or unwilling to provide me with really anything that's constructive so I simply suggest you to not post on this again unless it is productive, meaningful and not nice.

As a side not, the quote above where I mentioned ~5k spirit? That was a rough guess that if you're healing correctly, you won't ever go oom as a holy paladin in 4.3.
And crit rating not improving throughput as a holy paladin nearly as much as Haste and Mastery do... that should be a no brainier dude. People have reforged into all crit and then mastery and they end up with ~21-22% crit chance unbuffed.. whereas my paladin in the same gear is sitting at 17% unbuffed. In the grant scheme of things.. having a 4-5% additional chance to crit isn't going to make nearly as much a difference as having the equivalent secondary stats you threw into crit rating, thrown into Haste or Mastery. While you have a 21% chance to crit unbuffed, that doesn't mean you're critting 21% of the time. It's RNG, and your odds of this type of RNG being improved can come from a stat that's infinitely better than crit rating, that stat being Intellect.

---------- Post added 2011-11-01 at 10:11 PM ----------

Sorry, but a 47 GCD difference isn't going to come from haste alone. You have to bring the human element into play, as well as RNG.
"I agree with that because Shard of Woe was/will be nerf It reduces manacost by 205 "only" now"
Yup, that and paladins get an additional 30% combat regen from spirit, which is needed to cast Holy Radiance as frequently as we should be. (Just FYI, It costs exactly as much as Divine Light costs now.)

---------- Post added 2011-11-01 at 10:15 PM ----------

I doubt there will be a signifigant difference in Holy Power generation, but yes, you're right there definitely will be one present, that's one of the downfalls of choosing to go with mastery over haste, keep in mind though, that you aren't completely removing haste from the build, just about half of it to increase your heals by roughly 15 - 20% at all times. Consider that haste only directly affects HR ticks, and nothing else aside from lowering the GCD, and there is a cap on that affect. Mastery affects all spells the paladin uses with the exception of HR ticks.

[Tatsu]

I've been on the PTR since it's release testing stats and their direct involvement with my throughput. Specifically, Haste and Mastery. I've had a hunch that mastery would be better since the change to Holy Radiance was announced but I knew that the amount of mastery required to be superior to haste would be a some-what high number, and with knowing this, I knew I couldn't completely take haste out of the equation either, because it is just too much of an important stat.. after doing some instances when Holy Radiance started to grant Holy Power correctly, I felt the amount of mastery I would need to make this change and for it to be a noticeable one, I'd need a decent bubble left behind by my heals.. I thought 20% would be a nice place to start at, since it was double the amount given to all holy paladins with 0 mastery rating. After testing my heals with Recount on the PTR I didn't really feel the jump was all THAT noticeable.. So I tried for 30, it's triple the amount of mastery that a paladin with 0 mastery rating would have so I felt it'd be the change I was looking for. I could only get to 25% mastery though, but even that 5% jump from 20 to 25 pushed Illuminated healing up on the charts to be actually the second biggest contribution to my heals on a heavy AE encounter, I.e Morchok but I felt that my heals weren't as potent as I felt they'd be if I had the haste I had in 4.2 and no chance was made to Holy Radiance.. so I changed a few gems and enchants, maintained my 25% absorbs from mastery and ended up with ~920 haste rating. I've been testing ever since then and haven't stopped. While I don't possess any excessive and extremely detailed screen shots of my healing done and my hps ect,ect.... It's what I've been doing. Honestly.. just get on to the PTR and try it for your self Tatsu rather than requiring me to give you proof of something that is better for your HPS and throughput, take the initiative and test it on your own. I'm not going to post extensive mathematical equations to prove my point. If I was going to do that I would have labeled the forum post "Stat priority in 4.3, proof that my method is better."
I instead opened with my idea, and asked for some suggestions or constructive feedback, you've been unable or unwilling to provide me with really anything that's constructive so I simply suggest you to not post on this again unless it is productive, meaningful and not nice.

As a side not, the quote above where I mentioned ~5k spirit? That was a rough guess that if you're healing correctly, you won't ever go oom as a holy paladin in 4.3.
And crit rating not improving throughput as a holy paladin nearly as much as Haste and Mastery do... that should be a no brainier dude. People have reforged into all crit and then mastery and they end up with ~21-22% crit chance unbuffed.. whereas my paladin in the same gear is sitting at 17% unbuffed. In the grant scheme of things.. having a 4-5% additional chance to crit isn't going to make nearly as much a difference as having the equivalent secondary stats you threw into crit rating, thrown into Haste or Mastery. While you have a 21% chance to crit unbuffed, that doesn't mean you're critting 21% of the time. It's RNG, and your odds of this type of RNG being improved can come from a stat that's infinitely better than crit rating, that stat being Intellect.

---------- Post added 2011-11-01 at 10:11 PM ----------

Sorry, but a 47 GCD difference isn't going to come from haste alone. You have to bring the human element into play, as well as RNG.
"I agree with that because Shard of Woe was/will be nerf It reduces manacost by 205 "only" now"
Yup, that and paladins get an additional 30% combat regen from spirit, which is needed to cast Holy Radiance as frequently as we should be. (Just FYI, It costs exactly as much as Divine Light costs now.)

---------- Post added 2011-11-01 at 10:15 PM ----------

I doubt there will be a signifigant difference in Holy Power generation, but yes, you're right there definitely will be one present, that's one of the downfalls of choosing to go with mastery over haste, keep in mind though, that you aren't completely removing haste from the build, just about half of it to increase your heals by roughly 15 - 20% at all times. Consider that haste only directly affects HR ticks, and nothing else aside from lowering the GCD, and there is a cap on that affect. Mastery affects all spells the paladin uses with the exception of HR ticks.

I am on the PTR and have been testing it. So this is based on no math, just a feeling. And you wonder why people don't agree with you. You can't show me logs, pictures, parses, math or any other fact. You have created a random number and said this is good. Your opinion means nothing to me. Give me facts. Give me a logical reason beyond what you feel. When you can do that, I will give your idea weight.

[kiristus]

Did you read what I posted? Was it too long? Lemme give you a short version.
Edit: I'm not sure who you think you are, god of Holy Paladins, chairman of change.. but I'm honestly getting tired of it.
Do your own research, I don't really have anything riding if I succeed at healing and you fail at it.
Post constructively or don't post at all, I don't have time to read your little bigoted comments and snide remarks.

Thanks

[Tatsu]

Did you read what I posted? Was it too long? Lemme give you a short version.
Edit: I'm not sure who you think you are, god of Holy Paladins, chairman of change.. but I'm honestly getting tired of it.
Do your own research, I don't really have anything riding if I succeed at healing and you fail at it.
Post constructively or don't post at all, I don't have time to read your little bigoted comments and snide remarks.

Thanks

I read your whole reply. I want to have a reasoned discussion on this. I don't want your feelings on it. Feelings are not a way to come to logic on this. If mastery is better I will use mastery. If haste is better I will use haste. But I want to be able to back that up with the math. That we can show that one stat is better than the other. That is what I am getting at. Im not bashing your idea. I want to know the process that you used. Did you do the same fight twice? Once with a haste build? Once with a mastery build? Did you study the overall healing you did? Not use an improvement on one spell. I would assume that IH would jump if you stacked mastery. But did it increase your overall healing? Or was it flat? If you did the same amount of healing all you did was transfer healing.

This is the point I'm driving. That is why I want to see your logs. So that I can make a reasoned choice on your logic. That way we can have a real strong discussion on the merit of your idea. At the end of the day this game is based on math, so that is why I go back to the equations, of which there are have been a few in this discussion about the strength of haste versus mastery.

[kiristus]

We started off in the wrong place then.

I didn't open this thread to prove anything to anyone. If everything I've wrote so far isn't enough for you to have a "reasoned discussion" on the topic then you're wasting your time asking me to provide more reason. What you see is what you get.
I opened this thread to chat and speak with people about their thoughts, feelings and opinions, not talk to someone requiring my sources or ideology behind my suggestion.

If you look back at my opening statement, (the first post I used in this thread to open it) I used the words "Believe" and "Feel".
Somewhere along the lines in here you got caught by something that provoked you and pulled you into a place that forced you to forget what I wrote in the first post of this thread. For that, I apologize. You're wasting your time asking me to post 'proof' about something I feel.
Who knows, maybe you just didn't read the first few sentences in this thread and if you didn't, well I've repeated it for you and I guess now you know what this thread is about and for.

[Tatsu]

I would like to have this conversation. I think it is a good conversation to have about how our stats are changing. I know that you feel these things are right, but I hope you understand where I am coming from. I know that mastery will be a stronger stat for us. It has to be by the change to HR. But it comes down to how much stronger. And for that we need to test it. This is a good thread to test how each stat change is going to be. Not only how you feel about mastery and having 2k of it, but maybe more mastery is better, maybe less. but we should be able to have a talk about testing it and if people have logs for fights that would be great.

Right now on the PTR I have stayed with my same build. I have a high amount of haste, low amount of mastery. Now I have been lazy and haven't logged any fights. But I am open to discussions about mastery. Im not a mindless believer in haste. Acutually I don't believe in any of them.

If you are able to you should try out a fight with not only varying amount of mastery, but also going back to a haste build. See what the differences are on total healing done and then bring the results back here.

[kiristus]

I feel it's not stronger than haste unless you have a substantial amount of it. Not only the changed to HR has made it stronger, the ability to get more of it plays a big role too. There is obviously going to be a tipping point where mastery is better than haste when you've accumulated the certain amount of secondary stats to play around with.. and this is probably the time where that will be possible. I'm not going to post any math or extensive equations.. nothing like that. Down the line a little, when I have the perfect set I am going after in full 397s+ I'll show you my results compared to a haste user (possible you or someone I've been collaborating with.)

Thanks again.

[Deleted]

Same here. As Tatsu I don't want to fight. I want to discuss about our stats. And it's what I was aiming for with my basic maths (for what it worth). You believe mastery is stronger than haste fine we are just wainting for proofs/facts not only feelings. You can provide something its great you cant't? No big deal. We are all in the same side after all

[kiristus]

No, I don't think mastery is stronger than haste.
I think once you get to a certain amount of mastery it becomes a better stat then haste until you reach idk, 30% absorbs from heals, and then it's the rest of your secondary stats into haste. Mastery is too powerful now to ignore, like resto druids in t11, they reached 2002 haste and couldn't do anything else, when 4.2 came out they got to 2002 haste and put points into mastery from there on out, because it's better for them. I believe the same thing some-what applies to Holy Paladins now.

[Deleted]

Holy paladins in full Dragon Soul gear will be able to stack enough haste to reach an extra tick of holy radiance (this needs around 3400), which, once you have the gear for it, will undoubtedly make haste the strongest secondary stat again. However, during progression it's still quite unclear what will be the winner, personally I'm still inclined to go with haste simply because it's been the tried and true choice so far, however it'll be interesting to see what will be the results once the PTR starts getting finalized and we start getting some proper theorycrafting done about stat values.

In any case the fact that another tick of the new holy radiance will be reachable if you heavily favor haste in your gearing will mean that in top-end gear you most likely won't be going for mastery "after a certain point of haste", you'll need to have almost all of your gear with haste in order to reach that extra tick.

[kiristus]

An extra tick to a 3 second heal over time spell versus having 15% increased heals on all heals you cast. Think about that.

[Valinor]

People need to stop posting what they "feel" and "believe" are right as well as biased comments. Maths and maths alone should tell us what's best.

[Deleted]

An extra tick to a 3 second heal over time spell versus having 15% increased heals on all heals you cast. Think about that.

False statement, a very significant part of our healing will be Holy Radiance/Beacon of Light, both of which mastery doesn't benefit (at least fully regarding HR).
The extra tick of Holy Radiance isn't the only reason to stack haste either, Haste still provides a significant amount of throughput even without getting to the threshold for the extra tick of Holy Radiance. Though again, I have no theorycrafting of my own to back up the argument of haste vs mastery, likewise neither do you so I guess this is a pointless argument without solid facts.

People need to stop posting what they "feel" and "believe" are right as well as biased comments. Maths and maths alone should tell us what's best.

Fact is there's been very little theorycrafting done about the matter yet, so the only thing we can do is discuss the possibilities at the moment, as far as the possibility for an extra tick of HR goes, that's a fact that's been discussed over at EJ already, but nothing conclusive has been made out of it yet as far as stat-weights go. Still agree with the point you're making though.

[Deleted]

No flames please, but i realy find it strange that some people say that only "math" can prove a point, but then rely on math done by people they don't even know and take it as gospel.

i have a bunch of classes that i've played over 6 years in high-end raiding content and ofc Elitist Jerks math spreadsheets were gospel to me, but as years gone-by i've noticed that even in Elitist Jerks super-duper gospels we have diferent versions that both are suported by heavy math.

Want proof ? Ret paladin is a good example: http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t110342-...ts_and_Gearing

Ret pala:
"Simcraft reckons that Crit > Haste.
My spreadsheet reckons that Haste > Crit by about the same ratio.

sjogren and I have compared the tools and do not find an overt flaw. We have amicably agreed to let the tools disagree"


So you have both math disagree on something, but still you believe in math for this particular case (holy paladin).


Pardon me but, i don't belive in other ones' maths. Simcraft is based on math formulae made by people who are probably wrong. If you believe in math you must also believe that if something has more than 0% chance to happen, it WILL happen sometime. People make mistakes all the time.

Testing on the PTR a mastery build and its awesome. You do need to be carefull not to gimp yourself silly in haste, still checking the sweet spot, and by meaning "sweet spot" i'm perfectly aware that haste is not suposed to have a mathematicaly sweet spot since its exponentialy ever increasing throughtput by the same percentage with no break point.

[Deleted]

Yeah but some numbers would be nice, as it is we know nothing of the results of his testing haste against mastery, except that mastery "felt better". It's a shame overall healing done can be so variable but, still, numbers would be nice.

[Skulldancer]

Fuck it I'm going back to Haste Build

[kiristus]

Errrgg....

---------- Post added 2011-11-02 at 04:33 PM ----------

Eler, have you even tested EJs break points for HR in 4.2? I suggest you do so, you'll be surprised on how accurate your treasure trove of information actually is.

---------- Post added 2011-11-02 at 04:38 PM ----------

Also, don't even mentioned EJ here concerning holy paladins, Lol. They haven't updated their guide since 4.0.6 dude. Especially if you're trying to prove a point.

[silverhatred]

You guys are forgetting why we heal, the fact of the matter is is that we bring people to near full so they can take damage again in many 4.3 fights. Whether it be stomping, crystal soaking, ping pong, aoe blasts we are constantly trying to stabilize the raid as mana efficiently as possible. While mastery makes you more mana efficient (assuming everything is absorbed) Haste allows for you to reach that point quicker and get more casts off.

Haste and crit have a good synergy as well. More casts = more chances to crit = more procs = higher hps/more mana efficiency. Crit also is better when using small heals like holy light (less chance to overheal) only made viable by high amounts of haste under strong raid damage intake.

[deviancee]

Well, i've been on PTR today and tested morchok and those 2 generals (one with ball and second with oozes), and i must say that stat priority of int>spirit>haste>whatever is no brainer. There is just SO much incoming damage and its SO fast that you have to be reacting to it fast enough - and mastery/crit are just not good for it. I didnt have much of mana problems, but im 100% sure that holy paladin will get another mana nerfs, so it may change

[silverhatred]

This is literally the only source for holy pally 4.3 theorycrafting that I know of, is there any way to sim the stats?

EDIT: In 4.3 raids.