[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[SodiumChloride]

Context, my dear.

The answer you quoted came up in a discussion about resist/specialized gear for encounters as proposed by our trusty, old NaCl.
In that scenario you wouldn't have one set for each class, you would have 2-3-4 depending on how far the devs would go.

THAT would indeed be woefully annoying for anyone that plays more than one class.

It's only as bothersome if the inventory isn't adjusted to enable it.

I don't see why we should limit ourselves based today's UI limitations.

I would be cool if they give us an item (let's call it "gear set chest") that can be opened like a container, inside you can store one type of gear for each slot. Using it will equip everything in the gear set chest - your currently equipped gear of course goes into either your armory chest or the gear set chest it originally came from.

Box within a box.

Man, that would fix so many problems. You can collect gear sets to your heart's content ... until a few expansions later anyway.

Alternatively, they can just give us an additional inventory for DD gear.

[Granyala]

It's only as bothersome if the inventory isn't adjusted to enable it.

I don't see why we should limit ourselves based today's UI limitations.

Because geameplay cannot exist separately from the UI of a game.

Frankly, I would like them to come up with a proper UI and get rid of all the goddamn text menus and error messages "can't do that now" because a window is open FIRST before even thinking of adding gameplay that requires a proper UI.

Yes, yes I know. F*** PS3 limitations.

[SodiumChloride]

Because geameplay cannot exist separately from the UI of a game.

Frankly, I would like them to come up with a proper UI and get rid of all the goddamn text menus and error messages "can't do that now" because a window is open FIRST before even thinking of adding gameplay that requires a proper UI.

Yes, yes I know. F*** PS3 limitations.

Just saying it's not a fundamental problem with the gameplay, just the UI supporting.

[Granyala]

Just saying it's not a fundamental problem with the gameplay, just the UI supporting.

Maybe. But personally, I don't see "more gear requirements to do content" as adding anything to the game but grind.

I mean I did the resist gear mumbo jumbo on Hydross and Sharasz back in the day. It wasn't fun in any way. Simple obligatory grind/timesink.

[SodiumChloride]

Maybe. But personally, I don't see "more gear requirements to do content" as adding anything to the game but grind.

I mean I did the resist gear mumbo jumbo on Hydross and Sharasz back in the day. It wasn't fun in any way. Simple obligatory grind/timesink.

Gear can have resistance ... and other properties. How much of some other stats are you willing to sacrifice for the resist?

How much is that resist worth to you? Can you make up the stats you lost with a potion or with some other piece of gear?

How much will the gear cost (in gil or effort)? Is there a less optimal but cheaper piece I can use?

All these are gameplay decisions you will have to explore. ; )

[Faroth]

I'd say more 4-5 weeks tbh. 3.2 was late Feb so expect 3.3 late early-mid June.

They're back on a 3 month schedule.

Feb 22
March, April, May 24 would be my expectation.

[Granyala]

All these are gameplay decisions you will have to explore. ; )

No you won't.
Theorycrafters will determine an optimal resist level and most raids will stick to that number +- what their healers can do.

As I said: I DID play a game with these mechanics. It wasn't fun and it most certainly wasn't involving "gameplay" of any sort.

- - - Updated - - -

They're back on a 3 month schedule.

Yup, I have "end of may-ish" stuck in my head too. Not sure where I picked it up.

[Lathais]

No you won't.
Theorycrafters will determine an optimal resist level and most raids will stick to that number +- what their healers can do.

As I said: I DID play a game with these mechanics. It wasn't fun and it most certainly wasn't involving "gameplay" of any sort.

Just because I know what his response is going to be:

We aren't talking about for raiding here though, we are talking about for use in the Deep Dungeons and solo content.

He just doesn't realize that we have all played games that do this and we all felt it was stupid and the geme developers realized it was so STOPPED DOING IT FOR A REASON. He's citing that it's happening in another game though, that there are discussions about what gear is best. Here's what he doesn't understand. THAT GAME JUST CAME OUT. It's brand new, so of course there is theorycrafting going on. Give it a couple months, people will have figured out the best and that will die in that game too.

That's just the way it is with online games, or any game really. There is a best. Period. You can mathematically prove it. Sure, in a single player game if you do not go read the guides or try to figure it out yourself you won't know about it and it doesn't really matter if you use the absolute best or not. As soon as you enter a multiplayer environment though, other people will expect you to have the best. Basically though, what he appears to keep wanting, is a single player environment in a multiplayer game, which just can not happen.

[Granyala]

Yup. Though you can always try to be a member of the TC community and try to contribute.

Even though we only did napkin math on the WHMs stat weights, the discussion we had in the official Forums was fun and insightful.
Beyond the math, because it is also fun and helpful to hear other peoples opinions and experiences.

[Wrecktangle]

Would be cool if they hide DD items in the open world too as a way to flesh out the world and lore (if DD and its items have any).

I don't see them reworking combat for raiding though - at least not until the next expansion. That said, speaking of TP ... FFXIV on paper actually has the same resource system as Dark Souls 3 - i.e. HP (hit zero and you die), MP/FP (high capacity, slow regenerating), TP/stamina (low capacity, fast regenerating). There is potential if SE wants to make combat resource management a thing.

1) Agreed. Hiding the items in the real world would be a neat touch (maybe inside dungeons too, make an event in certain dungeons down wings you don't normally travel down, etc.). It's also a nice throwback to FFT where the Deep Dungeon was a real thing, and using Find-Item there is how you acquired some of the most powerful equipment in the game (not saying that is how it should be here, simply appreciating the ode to FFT).

2) Not 100% sold on your DS being similar resource-wise to FF14. In DS stamina regenerates and is spent almost instantly. In FF14 it takes arguably 15x longer to deplete, and regenerates probably 5x slower.

While I agree that resource management is a possible alternative to increase interaction in the combat engine, I don't think that it is the best one to initially focus on. I still think that creating defensive utility is the best. We need more reactionary elements in non-tank classes.

I don't think the combat system needs any reworking. I would say to add more procs into the game to give us choice. (Like BLM has with Firestarter and Thundercloud) For example, give Monks a trait that allows Tornado Kick to be used without consuming GL stacks, or Dragoons the chance on a completed combo to have Geirskogull not eat up any BotD. Something to add a little bit of skill while making better use of abilities that don't get used as much. (Not just stacking more and more abilities onto our bars.)

That is your opinion and that is fine. I can agree that procs are very underutilized in this game (mostly due to combo system I believe, hence why casters tend to have them and not melee).

The examples you suggested being traits IMO would be much better suited to a revamped materia system. I've suggested that there could be a materia that makes it so Gierskogul upon hitting 2+ targets doesn't reduce BotD. I've got a handful of other ideas I need to eventually put into a post, but I've been slacking.

A perfect example that combines what you're thoughts are and mine is this:

DRG Feint ability. In live, it's functionally useless. As is Keen flurry. Why not combine these 2 abilities, and design content that actually has a need for them. Not only do you reduce button bloat, but you create more engaging gameplay.

Boss A has a circular AOE move, (no telegraph), it hits for approx. 3k physical damage every 2s for 6s. I could use a movement skill to get away and do less DPS, or I could use the new Feint that deals say 120 Potency, for the next 4s all physical damage taken is reduced by 20%. In addition you have an 80% chance to parry front facing physical attacks.

I don't mean to be rude, but...that's how things should work. At least for the first sentence. If you want to do different content, it shouldn't be a big deal to take five minutes to get your stuff out of a bank. None of these problems are that unique to FFXIV. The only unique part is that you can be EVERY class with one character. But in other MMOs, if you want to level an alt, you're not going to carry around EVERY piece of gear from 1 to max level. Most of the time, you stop and go to a city for a few minutes every 5-10 levels to either buy or grab upgrades before tossing the previous ones.

I'm inclined to disagree. I don't think that you should need an armoire full of different gear to be able to do differing forms of content. I'd really rather see them be much more universal.

Gear can have resistance ... and other properties. How much of some other stats are you willing to sacrifice for the resist?

How much is that resist worth to you? Can you make up the stats you lost with a potion or with some other piece of gear?

How much will the gear cost (in gil or effort)? Is there a less optimal but cheaper piece I can use?

All these are gameplay decisions you will have to explore. ; )

Eh dude, Not buying this resistance stuff. It's just not compelling or engaging. The mechanics shouldn't be based on gear per se, but based on skill and adaptation. That's why I genuinely feel the materia system is the best to explore. I was thinking something like each ability has a materia slot meaning you can pick from say 5-6 different options depending on which content you're doing and what effects you need most.

Say my Gierskogul has 1 materia slot and my options are:

Enervate (Green)
When hitting 3+ targets your Gierskogul does not reduce Blood of the Dragon.

Imagine the content you're doing involves defending an area being zerged by smaller weaker mobs. Very handy here, but not terribly useful in raiding (pending fight), or in one on ones.

Bloodrinker (Red)
Your Gierskogul heals you for 20% of the total damage it deals.

I can see this being valuable in a fight with a singular or multiple stronger mobs. You need the sustain.

Scales of the Dragon (Yellow)
Your Gierskogul no longer deals damage, but generates a shield that absorbs 30% of your max health.

Similar to above. You can trade the damage for a shield and rely on other attacks for AOE damage. Maybe there's another materia for a BotD consuming skill that would combo with this nicely?

Dragon Coil (Blue)
Your Gierskogul no longer travels in a line, but circles in a 12 yard radius instead.

Useful on fights where enemies are moving rapidly, and surrounding you. I.e. no tank, or lots of small adds, etc.

Have Materia give stat buffs based on how many differing colors to add further customization. Alternatively, you could do a thing where having 1 of each grants a special effect too.

3 Yellow Materia socketed increases Max TP by 200.
3 Green Materia socketed increases MP regeneration by 7%.
3 Red Materia socketed increases auto-attack range by 3 yards.
1 of each color Materia socketed grants a passive 10% increase to run-speed.

To further flesh out the system, use the achievement system to open up further slots on skills. Reward people for engaging in other content and doing it. By unlocking X achievement points, opens up addition materia slot for Gierskogul. This lets you hit those other bonuses, in addition to adding horizontal progression to the game (which it DESPERATELY needs). This also could push non raiders to try raiding to unlock those achievments to get a skill slot they want.

To add even more detail, put all kind of different materia's all over the game. Beat all NPCs at Triple triad, gain Doublecast Materia.

Doublecast
Your Fire IV spell has a 20% chance to instantly cast again dealing 40% of its original damage.

Rare reward from Chocobo racing? Final attack (haha just kidding that'd be so broken).

But you get the point. You combine features from various underused systems for meaningful rewards and horizontal character progression and people will want to do them.

Again these are just rough ideas of systems that could definitely spice up gameplay without completely destroying the groundwork.

[Fuubakusatsu]

Boss A has a circular AOE move, (no telegraph), it hits for approx. 3k physical damage every 2s for 6s. I could use a movement skill to get away and do less DPS, or I could use the new Feint that deals say 120 Potency, for the next 4s all physical damage taken is reduced by 20%. In addition you have an 80% chance to parry front facing physical attacks.

This was the case in T4. Clockwork Soldiers had a constant circle, physical AoE damage.

The problem with Feint is that it's a weaponskill instead of an ability. It would be used more if it didn't use a GCD and broke combos. It's worse than Lethargy in every way.

The mechanics shouldn't be based on gear per se, but based on skill and adaptation.

Honestly I miss the days when MMORPGs were about our characters rather than "skillz". All this skill obsession does is stop people from playing with each other (as in, completely opposite of the purpose of the genre). Statics and the shrinking raiding community is proof enough of that.

[Wrecktangle]

This was the case in T4. Clockwork Soldiers had a constant circle, physical AoE damage.

The problem with Feint is that it's a weaponskill instead of an ability. It would be used more if it didn't use a GCD and broke combos. It's worse than Lethargy in every way.

Agreed, and I understand its problem. It didn't need to be mentioned because the fix for it is so obvious hence I didn't mention it.

You also managed to completely miss the entire point of my post. It's not about fitting into current content design. It's about designing content for the future to better use new tools.

Honestly I miss the days when MMORPGs were about our characters rather than "skillz". All this skill obsession does is stop people from playing with each other (as in, completely opposite of the purpose of the genre). Statics and the shrinking raiding community is proof enough of that.

Not exactly sure how to take your condescending remark about "skillz".

As I understand it, you prefer to play a game like hello kitty island adventure/sims, while I and many others play MMOs for a sense of character progression, challenges, and rewards. That's fine. To each their own.

Your comment about shrinking raiding community is not proof of anything regarding skill. Content doesn't need to be painstakingly difficult or take x amount of time to be deemed as needing skill. The bottom line that others and I are discussing is that the base combat in game (i.e. kill mob collect item) is immeasurably stale and boring. We are brainstorming ideas on how to invigorate that aspect of content. No one here is discussing ANYTHING about raiding.

- - - Updated - - -

"Hello Kitty Island Adventure" is exactly how people calls these recent MMORPGs. We're so streamlined that a few posts ago there was someone against the idea of visiting the bank (Retainers) to get a different set of gear.

I want to play a MMORPG. The RPG portion is so lacking for over a decade that people are against any form of RPG elements.

Literally just reading this post. You and I are in complete agreement. FF14 is so Helly Kitty Island Adventure (henceforth known as HKIA) it is ridiculous. I'm trying to resolve what you are saying above vs. what you're saying now. In the first statement we're clearly at odds, but now it's like you're my brotha from another motha.

I also agree that the RPG elements have largely fallen to the wayside. So once again, you and I are in agreement.

Different kinds of gear attributes? Elemental attributes? Offensive/defensive weakness? different mob behaviour? Spell training, character customization, no fixed roles? Can't have any of that because "people will theorycraft the best and only run that", which never happened in FFXI, Ragnarok Online, EQ, etc. I mean, everyone wanted a Rydill, a Samurai Specter card, or whatever, but almost no one could get one.

I also believe the statement that "people will theorycraft the best and only use that" is a fallacy as well. It is perfectly feasible to create elements that are not driven by maximum DPS, and in fact should be something that dev's strive for.

Yet it is. Doesn't matters how idealistic we are, this is the problem with MMORPGs designed around skill (hand-eye coordination). What's boring and unskillful for someone, is ridiculously difficult for another. Another point in case: the removal of trials from the Relic quest.

Your overall statement here is valid, but the examples of the extremes is a bit much. What I am referring to in my post is not inherent difficulty, but actual engaging gameplay. The reward for optimal play should not be a pass/fail mechanism. My definition of a hunt would be a mob that can be soloed, requires movement, defensive skills, interrupts, healing, and damage to defeat.

Let's say I am a DRG. I open the mob, stunning it and executing some damaging attacks, boss autos hit hard, but nothing dramatic or endangering. Some telegraph attacks, boss does a move that needs to be interrupted. If you miss the interrupt you don't get one shot. You may get a debuff. A slow, a healing reduction/dps reduction, paralysis, poison, etc. The point is it doesn't kill you, it doesn't severely endanger you, but it will make it harder/slower.

Give the enemy a hard hitting move, or a move that hits multiple times rapidly that a defensive should be used for. If you fail to use the defensive on time or optimally, you don't die, you just get hurt, and makes it riskier to continue doing damage without reverting to restorative techniques.

Then what you can implement is a system where mobs get progressively more difficult as you move on. What this does is train the weaker player to learn patterns, strategies, and solutions and become a better player.

The thing here is while this gameplay model would be easy for any "mythic/savage" player, it would be involved and rewarding to execute optimally, which is infinitely better than the drivel we have now.

[Lathais]

I don't mean to be rude, but...that's how things should work. At least for the first sentence. If you want to do different content, it shouldn't be a big deal to take five minutes to get your stuff out of a bank. None of these problems are that unique to FFXIV. The only unique part is that you can be EVERY class with one character. But in other MMOs, if you want to level an alt, you're not going to carry around EVERY piece of gear from 1 to max level. Most of the time, you stop and go to a city for a few minutes every 5-10 levels to either buy or grab upgrades before tossing the previous ones.

You don't NEED a set for every class at every single second of the game. If you're being asked to swap jobs, it's no different than being asked to swap specs in other MMOs. If your group tells you that they might need you as a tank, you'd make room to bring a tank set. If they don't tell you and ask you to swap midway through, you probably won't have another set of gear on you and would have to go to the bank.

I was just going to let this slide, but since oters are now bringing it up yet again, let me clarify.

This was in direct response to someone talking about adding resistance sets of gear to the game, in addition to what we already have to carry around. It was not me saying that we should always be able to carry all of our stuff with us all the time, just that adding yet more sets, like resistance sets and then deep dungeon sets and more and more would be a bad idea.

[Kazgrel]

Resist gear, per se, in a vein similar to what it was in WoW...yeah, no. Just no. It's gonna be enough of an annoyance with DD gear being separate, barring it working in a way it doesn't influcence armory space.

[Granyala]

Even inventory limitations on the side, I just don't see what's supposed to be compelling about mandating resist gear.
It's binary: either have the necessary stats or the boss is impossible. There is not "game" involved.

66/80 ... ._.

[RohanV]

Yes but that should be irrelevant.

If the buttons work correctly, a French dude that enabled German should not get me, because I deactivated the F.
Though I wonder where the function pulls it's information from.

Really? I would expect that if two people select E, they can both be put in the same group, regardless of what else they put in. If Anne is {E,F}, and Betty is {E,G}, they should still match up. That makes the matching as inclusive as possible, and reduces queue times the most.

If you went the opposite way, must match on every character, so {E,F} only matches {E,F}, I think you'd see that queue times get very long, and everyone will promptly switch to {E} to get the fastest queue times.

- - - Updated - - -

Even inventory limitations on the side, I just don't see what's supposed to be compelling about mandating resist gear.
It's binary: either have the necessary stats or the boss is impossible. There is not "game" involved.

66/80 ... ._.

The game is the farming of the resist gear. Slowly working towards the goal as a group. It wasn't that bad in Vanilla WoW, well maybe for the edge guilds who hit the content first. But for the rest of us who were working on earlier bosses, it was something to work on together outside raid time, in smaller groups,

If you got to the boss and were completely unprepared, yeah it sucked as you ran around frantically farming.

[Granyala]

Really? I would expect that if two people select E, they can both be put in the same group, regardless of what else they put in. If Anne is {E,F}, and Betty is {E,G}, they should still match up. That makes the matching as inclusive as possible, and reduces queue times the most.

If you went the opposite way, must match on every character, so {E,F} only matches {E,F}, I think you'd see that queue times get very long, and everyone will promptly switch to {E} to get the fastest queue times.

It doesn't have to match.
If I deactivate the F, people that activated the F should not be eligible to group with me.
EG: JDE,J,D,E,JD,JE,DE all would be viable combinations.

Right now most people simply activate everything in order to get the fastest queues.
I even activated J despite not speaking any Japanese because I know the bosses and no communication is required.

Don't have a problem with french per se, it's just that most of them are so hilariously bad AND rude on top of it.

- - - Updated - - -

The game is the farming of the resist gear.

The last thing FF-XIV needs is more grind and timesink.

Bottom line: In Wow, grinding for resist gear was neither fun nor entertaining. And it wasn't supposed to be. It was a simple gating mechanism (Hello, heart farming in BT), that has mostly been replaced by enrage timer gear check encounters and hard gates (Sunwell / ICC gating / delay of BRF).

[Kazgrel]

Even inventory limitations on the side, I just don't see what's supposed to be compelling about mandating resist gear.
It's binary: either have the necessary stats or the boss is impossible. There is not "game" involved.

66/80 ... ._.

The same could be argued (somewhat) about accuracy. The removal of hit + expertise in WoW was one of the smartest things Blizzard has done in WoW in recent memory, imo. Yet here were are in FF14 where accuracy caps/requirements are left in the hands of theorycrafters, as far as I know.

I suppose I could look up any math behind what amount of rating = percent or something of that sort. Only thing I could math out would be spell/skill speed.

[Graeham]

When it comes to gear I'm mostly just interested in its appearance these days. I don't mind replacing weaker gear with stronger gear over time but I don't enjoy fiddling with specific stats to give the illusion of choice when ultimately most people are going to be pressured into going the 'ideal' route anyway.

[SodiumChloride]

No you won't.
Theorycrafters will determine an optimal resist level and most raids will stick to that number +- what their healers can do.

As I said: I DID play a game with these mechanics. It wasn't fun and it most certainly wasn't involving "gameplay" of any sort

You are forgetting what is optimal can come down to personal preference.

How much are you willing to spend to beat that one boss?

Which of his attacks do you have trouble dodging / want to soak because the DPS increase is worth it?

Which of his phrases is giving you the most trouble that you want you end ASAP by exploiting the elemental weakness during that phrase?

Edit:

I find it funny that people say it "isn't fun". Resist gear is a staple of RPGs since forever. Just because Blizzard fucked up the implementation and made it into a chore - by making it mandatory to clear a fight instead of as an option to to help clear a fight - doesn't mean it's a bad idea. FFS don't judge every feature by Blizzard's half-assed implementations. Using that logic, player housing should never be implemented ever because Blizzard done fuck Garrisons up.