[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[Katchii]

I know and understand all that.
Though there is no real issue at hand. Even with the limitations, SMNs DPS is fine.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/33#dataset=80

Nobody is arguing that SMN DPS isn't doing fine, just saying it's a pain in the ass and super aggravating to play when those kinds of things happen and you feel hamstrung when your rotation gets truncated or whatever because of the variable performance of PuG groups.

It just doesn't feel good to play unless you're in a well choreographed group where you can make full use and take full advantage of your tool kit.

[Granyala]

I think a simple fix for it would be to make Phoenix an independent cooldown that you can activate at any time.
You can still keep the Primary trance -> Bahamut because you can always cut the primary trance short to get to Bahamut.

That way SMN would basically play the same as it does now but gain more flexibility.

Other than that I would think not getting so hung up on "optimal" and your parsers output will save you a lot of headache.

[Rogalicus]

Oh absolutely, and I am not saying that SMN is awesome to play and no changes should ever be made.
My main concern are the manual pet skills that hit like wet noodles and feel completely out of place, in fact, the entire permanent pet feels that way to me.

But I also recognize that YMMV applies and many people might like the way it plays. Also I think designing according to the saying "Class X has Y, so Class Z should too." is not good game design. Classes should provide as different playstyles as they can possibly balance.

You can deal with many DPS problems via tuning but not all of them. If a design/scalability really sucks you need to go deeper or the class will fall behind again and again. See SPriest for many years in WoW (no clue how they are now but it was a common problem in the past).

I've yet to see example of good pet management in any MMO, in least annoying cases it's either ignorable or allows to remove pet at all. Removing Egis (let's be real, the only thing they provide now is false choice and bloat) and reducing summons to their signature ability (how it was in classic FF games, Rydia for example) would be a good first step to that state.

I agree that classes should be different, but I don't think "class is super stale" is good enough class identity.

[Nasuuna]

I have a question, in what way is SMN different to DRG for example?
I really didn't grasp the difference from the explanations so far.

for example this statement here:


How exactly is that different to DRGs DPS phase? I'm not too good with all the skill names in this game but:
If you delay your red-bar phase, you are also in your lowest dps phase. You can delay that phase for... 10 seconds(?) without a DPS loss because at some point you *have* to use the proc that comes from "Jump" and triggers the red-phase (which lasts for 10 or 15s until you can't use it anymore and is lost forever, effectively delaying your DPS phase by 30 seconds.).
Everytime you are not doing it, you can't get it back. You can even lose it due to a transmission phase.
Either way, aren't most (like 95%+) bosses on strict timers anyway, I don't see how PuGs are a problem anywhere other than the really rare odd outlier. And then it's probably something every single job has to fight against and can't play perfectly around it.

so dragoon you can actually hold your phase for about 40 seconds without losing much (like 200 potency)

Do that as a summoner and its a 2000 potency loss easily

[Katchii]

I have a question, in what way is SMN different to DRG for example?
I really didn't grasp the difference from the explanations so far.

Summoner's rotation is almost entirely dependent on the amount of time that's passed, because the abilities you need to activate in order to get to your big payoff have inherent cooldowns and there's no ability that can be used to speed things up.

Dreadwyrm Trance has a 55 second cooldown, and you HAVE to use this in order to trigger the next part of your rotation, and unless you want to severely impact your DPS you need to use the full 15s duration of it. At the end of it you get the resource needed to Summon Bahamut, which lasts 20 seconds, and only after this is over can you move on to the next phase of your rotation which is Firebird Trance. After which, the whole thing starts over again, but you should use the full 20 seconds of Firebird Trance in order to maximize your DPS.

This means that no matter what you do or how well you play, there's nothing you can do to speed things up. You HAVE to wait 55 seconds between each Dreadwyrm Trance, it's a huge DPS loss if you don't utilize the full 15s duration of Dreadwyrm Trance, and you HAVE to wait the full 20 second duration for Summon Bahamaut to end and then you can use your final bit of your rotation. That's, at minimum, a full ~1:30 between the start of the rotation and the end of it (1:50 if you count the full duration of Firebird Trance), with no way to speed it up or adjust to it if the dungeon/trial/raid fights don't line up with your windows. That's almost 2 minutes between the start of your "rotation" and the end of it.....and there's nothing you can do to change that.

You can delay those cooldowns/ abilities to line up with appropriate phases, but that means your gimping your DPS in that window, but the flip side is that if you use one of those cooldowns/ abilities at the WRONG time, there's simply no way to recover from it and your rotation/ rhythm is thrown off for the rest of the fight.

In contrast, while DRG does have a similarly time bound aspect in Blood of the Dragon, Jump/Mirage Dive and the big payoff of Geirskogul to Nastrond or Stardiver, with the full rotation taking ~1 minute, throughout this time period DRG is still doing it's full damage rotation, keeping up buffs, etc... the difference is that after the 1 minute of doing their rotation they get a big damage payoff. Their rotation and game play doesn't inherently change over this time period, they're not pressing or delaying abilities they wouldn't normally....they just carry on normally, but at the end they get a big finish for doing it right. With SMN, the "big finisher" is their entire rotation.

[Granyala]

I agree that classes should be different, but I don't think "class is super stale" is good enough class identity.

Just because you think it is stale, does not make it so.
I quite like how SMN feels, except the permanent pet.

[The Casualty]

Summoner's rotation is almost entirely dependent on the amount of time that's passed, because the abilities you need to activate in order to get to your big payoff have inherent cooldowns and there's no ability that can be used to speed things up.

Dreadwyrm Trance has a 55 second cooldown, and you HAVE to use this in order to trigger the next part of your rotation, and unless you want to severely impact your DPS you need to use the full 15s duration of it. At the end of it you get the resource needed to Summon Bahamut, which lasts 20 seconds, and only after this is over can you move on to the next phase of your rotation which is Firebird Trance. After which, the whole thing starts over again, but you should use the full 20 seconds of Firebird Trance in order to maximize your DPS.

This means that no matter what you do or how well you play, there's nothing you can do to speed things up. You HAVE to wait 55 seconds between each Dreadwyrm Trance, it's a huge DPS loss if you don't utilize the full 15s duration of Dreadwyrm Trance, and you HAVE to wait the full 20 second duration for Summon Bahamaut to end and then you can use your final bit of your rotation. That's, at minimum, a full ~1:30 between the start of the rotation and the end of it (1:50 if you count the full duration of Firebird Trance), with no way to speed it up or adjust to it if the dungeon/trial/raid fights don't line up with your windows. That's almost 2 minutes between the start of your "rotation" and the end of it.....and there's nothing you can do to change that.

You can delay those cooldowns/ abilities to line up with appropriate phases, but that means your gimping your DPS in that window, but the flip side is that if you use one of those cooldowns/ abilities at the WRONG time, there's simply no way to recover from it and your rotation/ rhythm is thrown off for the rest of the fight.

DWT doesn't give a damage buff this expansion - you actually want to clip it early to get into Bahamut during raid buffs, generally by 6th GCD for the opener and then Firebird by the 60second mark so you line up with the 60/120 buffs and every other application of the 90 second ones.

While SMN rotation takes a while to loop, you do basically get 2 separate, but similar burst windows and similar downtime in between. Really the only big difference is the hard recast of dots after Bahamut (the one time you hard cast them in that entire loop) and the need to pool Ruin IV for the Bahamut phase. Unless people are dropping spaghetti everywhere, you can and should hold for optimal buffs depending on mechanics. DWT coming back up at 55seconds gives you a bit of a buffer to prep and line up.

Sure delaying feels bad, but unless you are losing an entire application over the course of the fight, nothing is really lost. That goes for all classes.

[Katchii]

Just because you think it is stale, does not make it so.
I quite like how SMN feels, except the permanent pet.

I like the permanent pet, but hate how it's implemented in ShB. Because it can't be targeted, SMN just doesn't feel like a pet class.

I am also not a fan of how it currently feels because of how inflexible/ unadaptable it is, but I do love the aesthetic and overall design choice (DoT based job with a pet based on summons) with big flashy summons like Bahamut

That said, I'm perfectly fine with playing something else knowing the job just isn't my thing.

- - - Updated - - -

DWT doesn't give a damage buff this expansion - you actually want to clip it early to get into Bahamut during raid buffs, generally by 6th GCD for the opener and then Firebird by the 60second mark so you line up with the 60/120 buffs and every other application of the 90 second ones.

While SMN rotation takes a while to loop, you do basically get 2 separate, but similar burst windows and similar downtime in between. Really the only big difference is the hard recast of dots after Bahamut (the one time you hard cast them in that entire loop) and the need to pool Ruin IV for the Bahamut phase. Unless people are dropping spaghetti everywhere, you can and should hold for optimal buffs depending on mechanics. DWT coming back up at 55seconds gives you a bit of a buffer to prep and line up.

Sure delaying feels bad, but unless you are losing an entire application over the course of the fight, nothing is really lost. That goes for all classes.

That's good info, thank you.

Still, with that said, it still seems that you can only effectively line these all up like that in a group where this is basically choreographed, like in static groups. Unless you're talking specifically about the SMN buffs? In most PuG groups, there isn't ever a clean alignment of buffs from other classes, and you're just constantly adjusting to the performance of the group, which is just seemingly more difficult, or at least the impact is larger if not done correctly, on SMN than it is on other classes. At least it feels that way.

[Granyala]

I like the permanent pet, but hate how it's implemented in ShB. Because it can't be targeted, SMN just doesn't feel like a pet class.

Apart from a healer tossing a heal, was there ever a reason to manually target the pet in combat?
I certainly can't remember any. :O

[Katchii]

Apart from a healer tossing a heal, was there ever a reason to manually target the pet in combat?
I certainly can't remember any. :O

It's mostly for solo play where the pet could act as a completely separate entity as far as threat is concerned, so pet's could tank, and because of that in groups they could divert attention from healers or other party members. It also meant that your pet could have a completely separate target from the player, so you could switch to cast a DoT on something while having your pet still stay locked on and attacking the main target, or you stay locked on the main target while your pet goes and takes a super weak add or something.

You're not controlling the pet at all now, there's no interaction with it in any meaningful way. The only "control" you have is activating an ability on your hotbar to make your "pet" attack that can just as easily be (and might as well be) a spell the player casts themselves for all of the interaction it serves.

[StrawberryZebra]

I consider a re design of the job, when SMN is last in DPS and starts having trouble to find groups. Until then: class diversity is a good thing. This game is homogenized enough as is.

DPS isn't the issue at all - It's just an awful, clunky Job to play. One that relies heavilly on unclear game mechanics (To avoid Clipping and to fit in two instants into one GCD skill) and doesn't make intuitive sense (Cutting short your Dreadwyrm Trance to line up cooldowns).

I'm advocating for a rework to fix those issues. They're very unintutive and create a stunted gameplay experience. They're not something that can really be done with a patch of a few tweaks, they're due limitations of the game engine and how the game is played. It is, afterall, much easier to change just the Summoner than change everything else around them to make them fit.

Reworking the job thematically would let them really deliver on the fantasy of being a Summoner, rather than the mobile DoT and Pet based Job with strong direct damage nukes. A lot of that is due to the earlier itterations of the job still being a part of the current version. Rebuilding it to have a much clearer focus on one area is a much cleaner experience and allows the job to excel in some areas, but be weaker in others. That's a much healthier position than the hybrid jack of all trades it is currently.

The current version of the Job is carrying too much design debt at this point, and that is selling both the Development team short who can create something far more functional and thematic, and the players short who deserve something mechanically better and more thematically fitting.

How exactly is that different to DRGs DPS phase?

I'm not too familiar with Dragoon, I got it as far as level 35 so take this with a grain of salt. But it would be like having to use Life Surge, then having to wait 30 seconds to use Lance Charge. Then having to wait 40 seconds after Lance Charge was over to activate Battle Littany.

That's not an exact comparison of course, but the idea I'm trying to convey is that Summoners need to use their cooldowns sequentially, and there's a cooldown on each one that begins when the previous ability in the sequence is used. On paper, that idea is fine, it gives a nice cyclical damage cycle with high points and low points on the interest curve. In practice in a game like FF14 it's a problem due to how raid mechanics work, particularly stacking of raid cooldowns and boss phase changes.

[Nasuuna]

DWT doesn't give a damage buff this expansion - you actually want to clip it early to get into Bahamut during raid buffs, generally by 6th GCD for the opener and then Firebird by the 60second mark so you line up with the 60/120 buffs and every other application of the 90 second ones.

While SMN rotation takes a while to loop, you do basically get 2 separate, but similar burst windows and similar downtime in between. Really the only big difference is the hard recast of dots after Bahamut (the one time you hard cast them in that entire loop) and the need to pool Ruin IV for the Bahamut phase. Unless people are dropping spaghetti everywhere, you can and should hold for optimal buffs depending on mechanics. DWT coming back up at 55seconds gives you a bit of a buffer to prep and line up.

Sure delaying feels bad, but unless you are losing an entire application over the course of the fight, nothing is really lost. That goes for all classes.

I think this may help people a little more how summoner works

[Granyala]

It's mostly for solo play where the pet could act as a completely separate entity as far as threat is concerned, so pet's could tank, and because of that in groups they could divert attention from healers or other party members.

Eeh you do not need to target the pet for that.
Just use "sic" to send it to a different target than you main one.

Sadly yes, the aggro is diverted to the caster now, instead of the pet but you can still grab mobs off a healer (does Titan still have taunt? W/o it, fat chance of getting aggro).

[KrayZ33]

so dragoon you can actually hold your phase for about 40 seconds without losing much (like 200 potency)

Do that as a summoner and its a 2000 potency loss easily

But how?
Isn't Geikrorosasgaksugol basically = DWT?
How do you lose potency unless you lose half a cycle = one burst window (such as Firebirb)?

Is Firebird "stance" on a limited timer and turns back to normal if you extend your filler phase or something?

eh. whatever...
I think no amount of explaining is doing any good if I haven't played the spec yet.
Just looking and reading at Akh morning, it sounds like a really complex dragoon (like, *really* complex) with lots of oGCD weaving. But it looks like a cycle that has room for adjustments where the important part is not to lose a Firebird or Bahamut phase throughout the whole fight

[Granyala]

Is Firebird "stance" on a limited timer and turns back to normal if you extend your filler phase or something?

Not that i know of. The damage loss for SMN is basically the same as if you delay any Cooldown.
Over the course of the fight, you get to use it one time less, so you lose it's potency.
I can imagine losing 1x Bahamut or Phoenix uptime being a significant loss, so it would only be done if the critical phase would fail otherwise.

If the other raid members can manage on their own, the SMN should just play undisturbed.

[Nasuuna]

But how?
Isn't Geikrorosasgaksugol basically = DWT?
How do you lose potency unless you lose half a cycle = one burst window (such as Firebirb)?

Is Firebird "stance" on a limited timer and turns back to normal if you extend your filler phase or something?

eh. whatever...
I think no amount of explaining is doing any good if I haven't played the spec yet.
Just looking and reading at Akh morning, it sounds like a really complex dragoon (like, *really* complex) with lots of oGCD weaving. But it looks like a cycle that has room for adjustments where the important part is not to lose a Firebird or Bahamut phase throughout the whole fight

So you pop eye before you mirage dive, it preps you red phase but ure stuff is still on cd

At the 68ish second marker it comes up

Just in time for trick attack and 2nd tether.

You also lose no actual time since you didnt lose any resources holding

[KrayZ33]

So you pop eye before you mirage dive, it preps you red phase but ure stuff is still on cd

At the 68ish second marker it comes up

Just in time for trick attack and 2nd tether.

You also lose no actual time since you didnt lose any resources holding

? these are Dragoon skills.
I know that you can delay the red phase and you have no serious DPS loss unless you lose out on a whole Greirkgokokasogakskul/red phase.

I didn't mean to talk about that. How do you lose dps on SMN (that much) if you delay your burst phase, unless you skip one over the course of the fight. Where does it go? That's what I didn't understand.

[Nasuuna]

? these are Dragoon skills.
I know that you can delay the red phase and you have no serious DPS loss unless you lose out on a whole Greirkgokokasogakskul/red phase.

I didn't mean to talk about that. How do you lose dps on SMN (that much) if you delay your burst phase, unless you skip one over the course of the fight. Where does it go? That's what I didn't understand.

dreadwyrm and pheonix share a cd

if you delay one you delay the other

theoretically you can delay Bahamut tho.

[KrayZ33]

What happens if you *don't* use dreadwyrm on exact CDs and accept the "cooldown shifts" (basically delaying every cooldown by X seconds).
If burst is of the essence, raid buffs are going to be delayed too. So these shouldn't be an issue.

You'd have to hardcast dots + ?

[Nasuuna]

What happens if you *don't* use dreadwyrm on exact CDs and accept the "cooldown shifts" (basically delaying every cooldown by X seconds).
If burst is of the essence, raid buffs are going to be delayed too. So these shouldn't be an issue.

You'd have to hardcast dots + ?

kinda, you can always just adjust your tridisaster timing as well

Dreadwyrm and Pheonix resets its cd