PvP deadborn game?

[Asmodian]

So lets sum up WoW from the start shall we:
So lets summarize facts:
- no arena
- no rated BGs
- no BGs
- world pvp on quests will be minimal cause of design questlines
- No illum, unless you count Tarren Mill vs Southshore
No competive at all in whole game? Does it fine for you?
See I can play this game too. Besides I fracking hate Pugs vs Premades...whats so fun about steamrolling over groups of bads anyway.

2004 release vs 2011 release. How can you even compare this?

[Glorious Leader]

Your argument doesn't take into context that the standard isn't vanilla wow, its cata wow. Therefor you'd expect either arenas or RBGs in SWTOR. Don't get me wrong I'm NOT a SWTOR hater, in contrast I plan on playing it and probably dropping WoW, but let's be real, SWTOR is missing a LOT of features it should have at launch.

The point isn't so much that the standard has changed and they should have X Y and Z features. The point is that people played without those things in previous mmo games (most in fact all had limited pvp and limited raid content at launch) and they still enjoyed the experience. The games grew and people grew with them. It can and will happen again.

[Necrolepsy]

2004 release vs 2011 release. How can you even compare this?

You can actually. While some elements of game design may be easier and the engines are upgraded, coding still takes as long as does modelling, animation, level design etc. It's not like back in 2004 they were coding in hieroglyphs and now we're programming in a gentlemanly manner. The amount of features and content in SWTOR is great for a 2011 standard and ungodly for a 2004 standard. WoW was buggy as hell in 2004, but then again so were many MMOs at the time so it was brushed off. Now that Blizzard had 7 years to get their shit together POST-RELEASE, you shouldn't expect any mmo to be that refined on release. However, Biowares game is, even in beta, so I salute them for the commendable job they've done and will definitely be playing their game and future titles if they continue to deliver, as Blizzard surely isn't any more.

The point isn't so much that the standard has changed and they should have X Y and Z features. The point is that people played without those things in previous mmo games (most in fact all had limited pvp and limited raid content at launch) and they still enjoyed the experience. The games grew and people grew with them. It can and will happen again.

This. I'm a firm believe the community experience is what builds an MMO honestly. The content is shite if the players you are playing with are shite. You can go into a 5 star restaurant any time but if you're seated with smelly hobos it always sours the experience.

[wvx]

So lets summarize facts:
- no arena
- no rated BGs
- no massive BGs, only 8x8 format
- only 3 BGs
- only 4 ppl can join as premade. You cant even form normal premade for facerolling BGs
....

And where is the bad element here , arena and rated BG's are one of the things that I HATED (I don't play anymore) about wow , I enjoyed wow a LOT LOT MORE in vanilla where there was actually world PvP and balance (well not for rogues who could stunlock you to death 2 times) .

[nazrakin]

The point isn't so much that the standard has changed and they should have X Y and Z features. The point is that people played without those things in previous mmo games (most in fact all had limited pvp and limited raid content at launch) and they still enjoyed the experience. The games grew and people grew with them. It can and will happen again.

I agree that its not something that will spell immediate doom for the game. There is enough here to keep players occupied for a few months. However, the key will be content patches. Its true that WOW launched without many things, but Blizzard did a phenomenal job back in vanilla of releasing something new every 1-2 months. If BW adopts the, current, 4-6 month content cycle of WOW then they are going to have a serious burnout problem.

By around March they should have the first major patch ready to go. Its also important that they maintain progression, don't release a new raid and let people just skip over the last one. That is a huge part of the problem with WOW right, there are too many shortcuts through the content and people are consuming it too fast.

[mirodin]

I agree that its not something that will spell immediate doom for the game. There is enough here to keep players occupied for a few months. However, the key will be content patches. Its true that WOW launched without many things, but Blizzard did a phenomenal job back in vanilla of releasing something new every 1-2 months. If BW adopts the, current, 4-6 month content cycle of WOW then they are going to have a serious burnout problem.

By around March they should have the first major patch ready to go. Its also important that they maintain progression, don't release a new raid and let people just skip over the last one. That is a huge part of the problem with WOW right, there are too many shortcuts through the content and people are consuming it too fast.

I said this in another topic, after WoW launched back 2004, in a 1 year span they had 8 patched. I expect the same from TOR, there is a lot of things that still need to be added or fixed. After 2 years tho i expect the time between patches to increase.

[Marxman]

The less that this game's PvP resembles WoW, the better in my opinion. WoW PvP has been an absolute joke since arenas began. It's not actually competitive, it has laughable balance issues (which last for MONTHS at a time, by the way), and it promotes douche-baggery on an epic scale. If you want REAL competitive PvP, you should play Street Fighter, Counterstrike, or Starcraft. Those are the cornerstones of the industry as far as competition goes.

[Deleted]

wasn't the only BGs in wow at launch WSG, AB, and AV? and it has took years for arena or rated BGs. Just because these things aren't at launch doesn't mean they won't be added in within the first few months, and you can't be sure Illum won't work well till we really see it in action.

No it was nothing. There was no instanced PVP and no PVP rewards. Only way to PVP was to go out in the world and kill the opposite faction.

Also sorry but the WoW PVP is dreadful. Warhammer PVP is better, Guild Wars is and so is Eve Online. There is no balance either 1v1 or in premades so it ends up being the equivalent of one group getting all the best guns in CS whilst the other team get the Mac 10 and a glock...

[Eroginous]

Also sorry but the WoW PVP is dreadful. Warhammer PVP is better, Guild Wars is and so is Eve Online. There is no balance either 1v1 or in premades so it ends up being the equivalent of one group getting all the best guns in CS whilst the other team get the Mac 10 and a glock...

Wow pvp is the most diverse pvp that exists in any game to date. The balance exists in group vs group pvp, and in order to make it meaningful to have multiple different classes (that actually feel and play differently) they balance around group play, and not 1v1.

1v1 balance implies that each class is capable of the exact same abilities, which would remove the need to have more than one class. What would be the difference between a rogue and a shaman if both had all the same abilities?

The current form of group balance takes the three combat tools (damage, CC, healing) and dispenses them in different power levels and flavors amongst each class, making for very interesting and flavorful group comps.

This is where SWTOR leaves me scratching my head. A trooper, a smuggler, a bounty hunter, and an imperial agent, are all ranged classes, they all use gadgets and blasters to engage in combat. These 4 classes (two classes, really, each with a different set of sub classes) are all very much similar, and the differences are mostly cosmetic. The few mechanical differences lie in healing and CC capabilities, which are meager at best.

Similarly, the lightsaber wielding classes are the exact same way. Mostly cosmetic differences, with mechanical differences in their sparse healing and CC capabilities. The combat feels slow and clunky, and healing/CC hardly matter.

The pvp game really isn't very diverse or balanced, much less polished. Wow, on the other hand, is balanced, diverse, AND polished. The combat is fluid and fast paced. Each class brings to the table strengths and weaknesses in different mechanical flavors.

So when someone asks if SWTOR is a pvp deadborn game, of course I am going to say yes. The pvp is terrible, it might as well be non existent. Being completely honest, the only reason I play wow after 7 years is because the pvp is superb. I would have loved to get into SWTOR and play the hell out of it, but the pvp just isn't good. It would take a lot to make it good, probably more than Bio Ware/EA are willing to do. With SWTOR, I can forgive the bugs. I can forgive the repetitive questing and overly big environments. I can forgive the gimmicky voice acting and excessively forced RP. I can even forgive the slow grindey nature of leveling combined with the atrocious talent trees and bland gear selection.

What I can't forgive, is the atrocious pvp.

[Deleted]

Wasn't star wars suppose to have world vs world vs world pvp? Like GW2? If servers fight eachother it's probably easier to balance the participation.

[DeftArcher87]

Wow pvp is the most diverse pvp that exists in any game to date. The balance exists in group vs group pvp, and in order to make it meaningful to have multiple different classes (that actually feel and play differently) they balance around group play, and not 1v1.

1v1 balance implies that each class is capable of the exact same abilities, which would remove the need to have more than one class. What would be the difference between a rogue and a shaman if both had all the same abilities?

The current form of group balance takes the three combat tools (damage, CC, healing) and dispenses them in different power levels and flavors amongst each class, making for very interesting and flavorful group comps.

This is where SWTOR leaves me scratching my head. A trooper, a smuggler, a bounty hunter, and an imperial agent, are all ranged classes, they all use gadgets and blasters to engage in combat. These 4 classes (two classes, really, each with a different set of sub classes) are all very much similar, and the differences are mostly cosmetic. The few mechanical differences lie in healing and CC capabilities, which are meager at best.

Similarly, the lightsaber wielding classes are the exact same way. Mostly cosmetic differences, with mechanical differences in their sparse healing and CC capabilities. The combat feels slow and clunky, and healing/CC hardly matter.

The pvp game really isn't very diverse or balanced, much less polished. Wow, on the other hand, is balanced, diverse, AND polished. The combat is fluid and fast paced. Each class brings to the table strengths and weaknesses in different mechanical flavors.

So when someone asks if SWTOR is a pvp deadborn game, of course I am going to say yes. The pvp is terrible, it might as well be non existent. Being completely honest, the only reason I play wow after 7 years is because the pvp is superb. I would have loved to get into SWTOR and play the hell out of it, but the pvp just isn't good. It would take a lot to make it good, probably more than Bio Ware/EA are willing to do. With SWTOR, I can forgive the bugs. I can forgive the repetitive questing and overly big environments. I can forgive the gimmicky voice acting and excessively forced RP. I can even forgive the slow grindey nature of leveling combined with the atrocious talent trees and bland gear selection.

What I can't forgive, is the atrocious pvp.

Oh I'm sorry. I forgot true PVP is blow all your cds at once and whoever lives through it is the winner.
I actually loved pvping against people like you in Beta, you WoW players who blew every single one of their cooldown and then stared dumb founded when I was not dead.
I prefer not to die in 4 seconds when the FOTM class pops cooldowns.
Forgive the bugs? WTF dude it's called Beta. Forgive the bugs.. Hell TOR had less bugs in beta than WOTLK did 3 months in.
CC and healing hardly matters? Are you damaged did you even play the game? I had a pocket healer for all the Warzones and she kept me alive constantly. Sorcs were owning people left and right partially due to their CC ability.

[Medjai]

The pvp game really isn't very diverse or balanced, much less polished. Wow, on the other hand, is balanced, diverse, AND polished.
What I can't forgive, is the atrocious pvp.

WoWs pvp is FAR from balanced, all wow pvp is rolling fotm classes and blowing all your CDs = win how is that balanced?

[Eurhetemec]

Your argument doesn't take into context that the standard isn't vanilla wow, its cata wow. Therefor you'd expect either arenas or RBGs in SWTOR. Don't get me wrong I'm NOT a SWTOR hater, in contrast I plan on playing it and probably dropping WoW, but let's be real, SWTOR is missing a LOT of features it should have at launch.

You expect SUCCESSFUL features to be incorporated into other games.

Neither Arenas nor RBGs are SUCCESSFUL features. I know you may not like this idea, but there you are. People do not decide to become WoW subscribers on the basis that WoW has Arenas and RBGs. People do not - typically, a TINY minority might - maintain their subscriptions in order to continue Arenas and RBGs. When Arenas launched, they had big (and steadily declining since) numbers. Why? Because you could use them to get gear for PvE. The moment that ended, interest in them when into a death spiral.

No-one is going to sign up to SWTOR because they have Arenas. No-one is going to sign up to SWTOR because they have RBGs (especially not RBGs, which have been a pretty huge flop, in terms of the numbers of people doing them). Those are old, mostly-failed models of PvP from WoW. If SWTOR had something new, PvP-wise, then it might attract some people, but that would require a lot of development effort in a game which is clearly PvE-oriented.

Eroginous - According to WoW's own developers, WoW's PvP design was balanced on a 1v1 basis (which doesn't require identical classes, just that any class has a CHANCE to defeat any other in a fair fight), and this is WHY it is also balanced at larger group sizes, so your argument that SWTOR shouldn't do that makes absolutely no sense. Given that you seem to have negative opinions about everything else in the game, it's obvious you dislike the entire game, so why play it? Most things other people see as positive ("excessive roleplaying" wtf rofl?), you see as "forgivable mistakes". No dude, they're FEATURES of the game. Features you dislike. Maybe you should own up to that?

---------- Post added 2011-12-02 at 12:04 PM ----------

Wasn't star wars suppose to have world vs world vs world pvp? Like GW2? If servers fight eachother it's probably easier to balance the participation.

Early on there was a plan for some kind of WvW(vW?) PvP in SWTOR, but I think they ditched it when they realized the technical requirements and development resources involved. 90% of their customers are going to be heavily PvE-oriented, so best to spend money where it counts.

[mirodin]

snip

SW has way better group balance then WoW. Like it or not Wow is focused on small scale pvp. If you enjoy fast pased pvp then by all means stick to wow. I would much rather have slower paced where you don't die in 3 globals. Saying that is balanced, while knowing that after every pach there is a FOTM class/ team is ludicrous. Swtor ads more then just dmg, healing,cc it makes tanks viable for pvp and rewards them. The points you are making about the non-force classes and the lightsaber classes is just plain stupid. According to you wow warriors,paladins,dks, rogues and enh shamans all play the same cause they all use melee weapons and the casters all cast spells. Maybe you should stop for a second and think before you post.

Unless you played lvl 50 pvp i don't see how you can dismiss CC and healing, its same as me saying Wow pvp is crap because at lvl 19 i globaled every cloth player just by using ambush.

[Deleted]

In my opinion SWTOR PvP is:
- much more balanced as WoW Cata PvP right now
- much more fun

If you want to be a skilled player you have to time not only cc but also all of your abilities and resources. This is a difference.

You may have a different opinion. But this is mine.

[DaGhostDS]

Early on there was a plan for some kind of WvW(vW?) PvP in SWTOR, but I think they ditched it when they realized the technical requirements and development resources involved. 90% of their customers are going to be heavily PvE-oriented, so best to spend money where it counts.

Never seen any mention of that anywhere, a source would help

IF it was their idea, they probably are gonna keep it for a future expansion or content patch.

[conscript]

Closing this since it has devloved into another WoW vs SWTOR thread. Please try and keep that crap out of this forum. SWTOR will not have every feature of WoW. WoW does not have every feature of SWTOR. They are independent games from independent developers. SWTOR is not the sequel to WoW. When WoW 2 comes out, or Blizzard's next MMO, then compare their features and bitch that the new game dropped "beloved" WoW features. Don't expect SWTOR to include everything you find in WoW. If you do that, just play WoW and avoid your disappointment. They are not the same game.