The Offtank, the reason for tank shortages.

[Morros]

Hello fellow MMO players,

Today I would like to bring something up, an issue that I feel has been long overlooked in many MMO's to date. Most MMO's emply the Holy Trinity format, meaning you have Tanks, Healers, and Damage Dealers. To form groups to take on harder content, you generally create groups of these three.

For example in World of Warcraft, if you wanted to do a dungeon, you would need 1 Tank, 1 Healer, and 3 Damage Dealers. If you wanted to take on a 10 man raid, you would need 2 Tanks, 2-3 Healers, and 5-6 Damage Dealers. Stepping that up once more to 25 man content you need 2 Tanks, 5-7 Healers, 16-18 Damage Dealers.

So far from what we know about SW:TOR you will have 8 man group compositions which will likely be 2 Tanks, 2 Healers, 4 Damage Dealers, or 16 man group compositions with 2 Tanks, 4 Healers, and 10 Damage Dealers. It all seems pretty straight forward, most things won't need more than two tanks, and of course people will be able to bring less Damage Dealers for extra Healers when needed. But guess what you won't need to bring extra of?

That's right, Tanks!

Traditionally every guild has their "main tank". He's the guy people rally behind, and once you get stuff on farm, he's the guy that's going to want to try and tank everything by himself. He probably already tries to tank everything by himself. That's fine, there's absolutely nothing wrong with playing like that. However that creates a problem for your Offtank. The guy who spends just as much time gearing up as a tank, practicing, working on how to play as a tank, and THEN also has to manage a Damage Dealing setup, because he may not always be tanking.

For me personally being an Off-tank makes the game not fun. Not only do I have to manage two setups, including gear, but I don't get priority on any gear, unless the Main Tank either has it or wants to be nice. Now granted, you have far less competition for the Tank oriented gear, but in most guild's loot system, the Off-tank doesn't even get any kind of priority on Damage Dealing gear.

So the Main Tank goes in to pull trash mobs, and he decides to pull all of them, and take them all by himself, thus leaving the Off-tank with nothing to do, but deal damage in a tank spec with tank gear. Why not just go Damage Dealer for trash? Well some trash actually requires two tanks. Fair enough. But what about when content is able to be tanked by only one tank? In World of Warcraft, four of the seven bosses can be done with only one tank. This allows an extra Damage Dealer to make the fight go faster. This is when the Off-tank gets to switch to a damage dealing specialization, and do middle of the road to sub-par damage because his Damage Dealing gear isn't up to par with everyone else's since they get priority.

This isn't fun game-play. The lifespan of an Off-tank is generally short. Tanking is fun, it can be challenging and it is definitely a unique experience that allows you push yourself to new limits, but everyone wants to have a role to fill, and Off-tank is becoming less and less of a valid role, because you can't specialize as an Off-tank without having to manage two different roles, whether the other one is a Healing role, or a Damage Dealing role. The Main Tank gets to just be a tank, the Damage Dealers get to just be Damage Dealers, the Healers get to just be Healers, sure they can try new specs, but their main spec, is their main spec, and it's what they are.

For the last year and a half I have been an Off-tank in my guild in World of Warcraft, we all plan to play SW:TOR when it comes out, leaving World of Warcraft behind. I thought the decision would be an easy one. Primarily I prefer Ranged Damage Dealing classes, I started WoW as a Warlock. But I had also grown to enjoy tanking, and I tried to enjoy even in the face of being an Off-tank, it wasn't easy, but I worked hard at it. Thankfully I was a Blood Death Knight, which was a double-edged sword. I faced criticism all the time for playing the "worst tank in the game", but at the same time, I was good at playing a Blood Death Knight, and I received complements all the time for how good I was. So it was something to work at, even though I was just an Offtank.

So when the time came to choose what I wanted to be in SW:TOR, I saw the Trooper, and I was like, that's it! It's a Ranged Damage Dealing class, that has the option to tank! Of course, at first, the Trooper was touted as a Ranged Tank, so I was simply amazed at this concept. It didn't stick though, which I understand, it's probably insanely hard to make it work, or just not worth the trouble. But I could still tank as a Trooper and then deal damage when I didn't have to with those big guns! But wait, I wouldn't be able to do both of those. If I chose Vanguard, I couldn't deal damage with Assault Cannons. If I chose Commando, I can't tank.

So I was left with this to think about, and it's something I still think about today, even though I have already made my choice. I could either go Vanguard, and be the Off-tank, which I have been finding to be less fun, and I would only be useful for about 5% of the game, considering you only need two tanks for Operations, or I could choose Commando, and have fun Damage Dealing which is what I would be doing for the majority of the game anyway. Do I choose the role that helps my guild but causes me to lose out on some enjoyment of the game? Or do I choose the role that I actually want to play, and will have the most fun doing?

I'll be a Commando, leaving my guild to find a new Off-tank. It's weird because I'm split on the issue. I feel like the developers should be thinking about these players, but then again these players (Off-tanks) are kind of a minority. If every Operation required two tanks, for the entire thing, always, with no chance of any fight being able to be done with one tank, I would have no problems being a tank, because there wouldn't be an Off-tank or a Main Tank, you would simply have two Tanks, but that's not the way things are done, and if I'm going to be playing a Damage Dealing role more often than a Tank role, then I'm going to pick the Damage Dealing role that I want to play, and will have the most fun playing, even if that means I cannot tank.



Disclaimer: This isn't meant to be a QQ thread or anything, I've made my choice, and I'm not complaining at this point. I just wanted to share these experiences with more people because it's something I haven't seen done before.

[Protoman]

Most raids require two tanks....the label "main' and "off" tank are arbitrary......usually its just a boss tank and an add tank or something like that. I think you should jsut joint a new guild, the one your in sounds pretty crappy.....its dumb to put all your eggs in one basket and prioritize gearing one tank over another....better to gear both tanks so they can switch it up.

You can always switch to dps or heals if you aren't required to tank in a specific encounter. Play what you like.

[Morros]

Most raids require two tanks....the label "main' and "off" tank are arbitrary......usually its just a boss tank and an add tank or something like that. I think you should jsut joint a new guild, the one your in sounds pretty crappy.....its dumb to put all your eggs in one basket and prioritize gearing one tank over another....better to gear both tanks so they can switch it up.

You can always switch to dps or heals if you aren't required to tank in a specific encounter. Play what you like.

Eh, I didn't want it to come off like that.

Tank loot wasn't an issue between the Main Tank and I. Generally there was a bit of loot we both wanted, so when something dropped, one would generally pass to the other, so that when a piece he wanted dropped I would pass to him, or vice versa. We did generally gear up at the same rate. This isn't always the case though in every guild or every setting.

[Deleted]

Also it is annoying to have no pvp spec, as 2 pve specs are pretty much mandatory.

[Deleted]

It's pretty much the opposite for me.

when I started playing my prot warrior in firelands, I quickly "became" the main tank, as the previous maintank decided to dps half the fights etc, although I'd guess it's because I can't be arsed having 2 gear sets on my tanks, and I'm not too shabby at tanking either

[Gorsameth]

As has already been said if the offtank feels left out the guild does it wrong.
Spreading out gear over 2/3 tanks isnt very detrimental to gear advancement and the tanks simply rotate between encounters to ensure everyone gets there moment to be the hero.
Ive tanked for over 6 years in wow and it really doesnt have to be an issue if the tanks can work it out amongst themselves.

[ChrisMun]

Like with any new MMO that comes out, the biggest trend once it comes to finding groups for instances is the lack of tanks. Second healers.

[shadowkras]

Offtanks are offtanks because they suck, if they were awesome instead they would be another main tank.
Its normally the attitude that counts, not the gear.

When the tank is good, the better geared tank will usually step down to dps instead of tank, as most actually have more fun just smashing buttons than having to:
1) properly rotate cooldowns;
2) watch boss timers;
3) move the boss;
4) move out of fire;
5) watch his own health to bitch at healers when he is about to die because they are slackers;
6) all of the previous at same time.

[Eggoman]

To me this is more of a problem with your guild and the way they ran things than the game itself. In my guild we let the tanks juggle who was going to be main tanking. One tank would particularly like to MT certain bosses and the other liked different ones. For the trash pulls the tanks would pretty much compete against each other for aggro and see who could grab the most mobs and they seemed to enjoy the competition. But on certain mobs they would coordinate because it was smarter to do tank swapping like the adds before counsel. Also if you are chain pulling... tank swapping should be happening.

I think the game designers should provide tools to help enhance the game play but they shouldn't have to implement design changes to make up for things that can be solved at the social level.

[LeonardNimoy]

Untrue, Shadowkras. Sometimes we get stuck as off-tanks because the main tanks have egos and refuse to offtank or dps.

[Harmzuay]

Offtanks are offtanks because they suck, if they were awesome instead they would be another main tank.
Its normally the attitude that counts, not the gear.

I was off-tank in my guild because the GM was a tank. He was good and I was just as good at it, but still I had to be the one to keep DPS gear. In my opinion, in that role, I'm even more of an asset to the guild. When the GM stepped down, I assumed his role and solo tanked things he couldn't.

[smokii]

As has already been said if the offtank feels left out the guild does it wrong.

i think this says it perfectly tbh

in my guild all of our tanks are required to have a geared offspec and i appreciate what you say about offspec gear not necessarily being up to scratch because the dps get the dps gear as a priority, whereas for tanks it's their offspecs.

what we generally do is decide which tank would be better on a given fight and go with it, or if one tank has a lot of dps gear in comparison to the other, the one with the most dps gear goes dps - but this is only on progress. once it's on farm, we mix it up as much as possible to stop people getting bored - everyone likes their moment in the spotlight and we discuss it at the beginning of the raid, as to who should tank and who should dps.

sometimes we'll switch it around even more to balance up ranged dps Vs melee on specific fights.

i was "THE" main tank for my guild for a long time, but i was desperate to do something else heal/melee/range - anything - but nobody else ever wanted to tank, as soon as we had more tanks in the ranks, we mixed it up a lot more and still do.

[digger66]

I chose to be our off-tank so I could raid lead more effectively, or so I thought. I run a loot council system and you are right, it is very hard to pass all that gear around main dps and main tank first. Busting your butt to get your tank valor items first then dps. In the end I ended up liking it though. The chance to constantly out perform the gear you have is a challenge that I relished. However, it made it harder to Raid lead because of it. I would definitely do it again. Offtank all teh way for me.

[Morros]

The post wasn't to meant to mainly address my specific situation, but a general situation Off-tanks can find themselves in.

The Main Tank in my guild was nothing but a tank, that is what he wanted to do, and the only thing he wanted to do, and he was doing it long before I ever started tanking for the guild. He is a great tank, and a great leader. He is for all intents and purposes the Main Tank, simply because he doesn't want to do anything else. In WoW, both of his specs were Prot, each setup differently for different fights

I was a good tank, he taught me everything I know about tanking in general, and I learned how to tank as a Death Knight on my own, which I feel was accomplished ten fold.

I was never forced to be an Off-tank, it was a choice I made back in WotLK when the Off-tank for our 10 Man Progression group went AWOL. It was either settle for one of two tanks who weren't very good, or drop the Warlock, and start tanking so our group could continue to progress. I made the choice.

My post was simply meant to bring light to an aspect of the game that many people overlook, that being the Off-tank.

[spleen1015]

We don't even know yet what raiding is going to be in SWTOR.

[Corjha]

My guild doesn't label us tanks. If they have to adress us as tanks they will say something like: "One of our Main tanks." or "The other Main tank."

Another good point is that Main tank and "off-tank" should be best friends. They have a unique partnership that no other role has. Healers and dps usually have groups of people, but Tanks, have each other. We always ask each other when something drops does the other one need it more, or if we are even, we roll for it.

[Morros]

We don't even know yet what raiding is going to be in SWTOR.

Yes we do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PAA4Dwdnaw

There as also a post about a group already solo tanking most of Eternity Vault.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...t-for-you-bros

[papajohn4]

actually I switched from paladin tank to warrior tank because I like most the warrior's off-specc dps :P In my guild our main tank was a DK and I was the off tank..although the gear was spread equal and most of times we were fighting because we both wanted to pass the loot for the other..that being said, we have a great relation. Then I asked her to play dps in the fights because I don't like retribution... he said ok and typically I became the "main tank" althought I don't think that matters as everybody treat us equal..

then I decided to re-role to a warrior tank in order to play dps in some fights because I like Arms warriors :P now in 4.3 patch and gear reset coming in the way due to the new 5-mans is a good chance to re-role now and not waiting expansion... of course protection warrior has a lot of fun also, but in conclusion there is no off-tank issue in the games, is either your guild have good people or not...if you think they are good people just tell them what you feel and see if they will help you...

[nyoan]

I actually look forward to offtanking myself. I find the offtank sometimes has a more dynamic role, especially in WoW raiding where you have to control adds and the like. The main tanking stuff sometimes gets boring for me (though I liked MT'ing the dance). I think the distinction made above of not really labelling is a good idea. You are both tanking, and if one of you fails the group is going to prolly go down. Its just that one of you happens to tank different stuff (or in tank swap bosses, you tank the same thing).

In my experience, the offtank role (mobile tank I'll say) was decided by resource system. As a DK tank I would get more of the mobile tanking as a warrior tank might get rage starved. In that situation, I can see the trooper/bh being more of a mobile tank or the shadow/assassin since the Guardian/Juggernaut is going to be needing to build focus up and swapping mobs fast might be a slight issue (conjecture)

[Jawstrock]

See, this is a very interresting post for me. I kind of became the raid lead in my guild, mostly no one else wanted to do it (taht is manage the invite, schedule etc.). I was also one of the tank, but half the time I'd always go ahead and pick the most complex to explain(Not nessarly the hardest though), just because it was easier if I did what I was expecting to see then try to explain it.

But it makes me wounder if I treated the other tanks injustly in the long run because of it.


As for the relation with SWTOR. Something is bothering me. Why are you all keeping the same roles? it's a new game, the raise have different size, the class plays differently, the setting is different, the healing is different, etc. If you all pick class because of the role, you are limiting yourself quite a bit of fun. Even more so if the hierarchy is exacly the same.

You guys should each a class and AC that you like, without considering the roles they can do at all, and when everyone picked, see if you wouldn'T happen to have the correct number of healing and tanking class. You are going to a new game, refresh it all by picking different roles too! (Or the same, whichever.)